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 Women's Discussion Board
 AS for lagging body parts?
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| Author | Topic: AS for lagging body parts? | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 812 |
Just continuing on from the retropump thread, I am curious to hear of anyone who's had this experience. I know some people site-inject AS into lagging parts, but I haven't heard of someone starting AS and having only (for instance!) their calves grow. It's a big reason I haven't resorted to AS yet because my experience (with other people) if that it helps you to put on mass all over. I also intuitively feel that if it were that easy to bring up lagging parts then the likes of Flex Wheeler would not have resorted to implants in his calves. It seems to me that if the lag is due to a genetic lack (ie sprinter's calves=high insertion of the muscle) then AS will NEVER get you where you want to go. Does anyone think (or know) if I took AS and hammered my calves and forearms as hard as I do now (which is pretty durned intense), could I get them to grow proportionately more than the rest of my body?     | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 575 |
It is possible but would be very, very tricky. It would come dowwn to training approach. You wouldnt be able to avoid muscle growth in the areas you werent "specializing" in due to the fact that AS works by increasing nitrogen retention, protien synthesis, and nutrient partitioning. As for site specific growth due to injecting in that site... its highly debated. People talk about "experiancing it" but scientifically it doesnt add up. I attribute it to mostly facsial stretching. Ive had it happen, and dont believe it was the AS as much as the stretch. Heres an easy explaination of fascial stretch as it occurs in this situation (using me as an example). I was doing 4cc injections of Sustanon into my delts once a week. Rotating between delts and areas in the head. This added volume (from the 4cc injection) causes the muscle fascia (which is the membrane coating) to stretch out to accomidate the added volume introduced into it. This added volume gives the muscle in question less resistance and an easier time growing! Anyone familiar with John Parrillo will know exactly what Im talking about. Thats why youre supposed to stretch a muscle after you work it... to loosen the fascia and allow the muscle less restriction to grow. This is a "cheat" way to get an enhanced stretch, and is what happens when using Synthol, except the synthol stays in the muscle for a long time instead of dissipating due to deesterification. If your really interested, and want to avoid AS, consider B 12 injections (site specific). I use B 12 sometimes to "fatten up" and injection... | ||
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Moderator 
Posts: 719 |
If I just read this correctly (bear w/me I'm running on fumes here) - I could inject B-12 into my delts and have them grow? | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 575 |
Yep. Inject like 2cc daily, all around the medial head. Switch from left to right daily, and when you hit the left for the second time, move the site. Heres how I did it... Day #: Where: 1 Left delt. Medial toward front 2 Right delt. Medial toward front 3 Left delt. Medial on rear 4 Right delt. Medial on rear 5 Left delt. Medial toward top center 6 Right delt.Medial toward top center ...and so on. These are ALL on the medial delt, rotating around the head. It stretches the fascia and encourages growth. By mid cycle a guy at the gym appraoched me while I was doing cable crossovers. He said my delts looked like cocconuts! Ive recreated the effect in my partner and 2 women I train occasionally. Its late, so if Ive missed any aspect or been unclear just ask! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 812 |
Why B12? Would plain old saline have the same effect? | ||
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Novice 
Posts: |
I think the other side of this (no pun intended) might be the side of looking at other sports and how those athletes train if you look at the calves of soccer or rugby players and sprinters you see that their calves are not only deifnes but pretty darn big! Granted genetics is a key factor in the length of muscle but the girth and definition of the calves is enhanced in these athletes...sprinters for instance often do stadium strides which are designed to help with explosiveness out of the blocks...it focuses on the calves hams and glutes...soccer players and rugby and American football players do tons of pliometric exercises designed to train short/fast twitch muscle fibers in specific muscle groups for specific purposes... short/fast twitch muscle is a lot of the bulking muscle builders are looking for....we are all born with a genetic given ratio of both long and short twitch muscle fiber (A boon to some and a bane to others) but I've found that if I look at athletes from other sports and see how certain of their body parts all seem to be large and cut they must be doing something I'm not..... they aren't all genetic gods and goddesses!! at least I hope not because if I find out otherwise I may descend into Ben and Jerry's New York Super Fudge Chunk funk.. | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 14 |
MS - My husband has been training for 20 years and has the same problem. No calves, he has his mother's genetics to thank for that. He was recently told by a Pro BB that he had used a Site Enhancement Oil injected into the site and that he got dramatic results. The bottle states that it is for external use only. However, my husband bought this about 4 weeks ago and started injecting his calves. 1 1/2 cc in each calve 5 times the 1st week and then twice a week for the last three weeks and continued his regular calve workout and his calves have grown 1/2 inch. Now that doesn't sound like much but after 20 years of nothing and 1/2" in 4 weeks that's pretty good I think. After he finished this he will do his delts as his rear delts are lagging also. The Pro BB claims that he used it on his Bis and it increased them by 2 inches. He has 23" arms, I don't know how true this is but thought you might want to check it out. T I also spoke to the actual owner of the company and he stated that he by law could not state that to inject it but that professional BB to use it in that fashion. He also stated that this is NOT a steroid but it does contain prohormones. They also have a discussion board where they have posted How a Pro BB would use it. The site to go check it out at is www.Nuclearnutrition.com Hope this helps you. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Trinity13 (edited August 29, 2000).] | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 14 |
Forgot to mention. Can only be injected to small muscles such as , Bi, Tri, Calves, Delts, forearms. NO quads, hams, chest, back or anything like that. ------------------ | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 719 |
This intrigues me. Would like to here more aobut this. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 575 |
Yeah, the site injection oil is good (capistran). Treveor over there is a good guy and sells good stuff. The capistran is far better than Synthol. Just be sure to aspirate before injecting... its not something you want to get in your viens (ask Milos Sacrev). ms: no, saline wouldnt work. It absorbs too quickly. B12 is in an oil, and the time it takes to dissipate to the blood stream increases to stretch. trinity13: actually you CAN use it in big muscles, but its a very complicated process of equal injections at equal spacing. Not back I would say, but a lot oe people use it for chest. As for me, Im interested, but I still have unresolved issues dealing with the silica in it. I know why its there, Im just not sure wqhat happens when it finally migrates its way from the muscle... | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 92 |
Wouldn't one would need to duplicate puberty to recruit significant numbers of additional muscle fibers? AAS would be a start and would certainly help to mature existing fibers, but ideally you'd need to get the hGH/IGF actions going as well. Testosterone would upregulate the hGH/IGF response better than do non-aromatizable analogs. I remember training some muscle groups in a disproportionate (almost masochistic) fashion during adolescence. Those groups have remained 'gifted'. I was gangly at the time and lacked coordination. So it was Much easier to bargain for a passing grade in grade-school gym classes by beating the timed sit-up and chin-up records as opposed to shooting the basketball through the hoop etc. My abs and back have been ahead ever since. Similar for quads. We should debate a suitable protocol for hGH, and/or IGF-1. Any suggestions along those lines? ... "Does anyone think (or know) if I took AS and hammered my calves and forearms as hard as I do now (which is pretty durned intense), could I get them to grow proportionately more than the rest of my body?" | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 575 |
Thats kind of what I was saying. It would all get down to training technique. I would say that the best bet would be to work the particular muscle intensly, while the muscles you do not want to respond should only be "touched". By "touched" I mean work them only to cause a loss of glycogen and not to do any microcellular damage to the tissue (if you do, it will be repaired and grow). The only concern is that women respond so much more intensly to AS than men, so it might be kind of a crap-shoot. GH and IGF1 are an alternative, but the potential problems associated with IGF1 arent worth the bother to me. | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 1309 |
Good thread going here.... The Parrillo theory has always intrigued me. Last year I was in a conversation and I was thinking that this may in fact be a good argument for taking AS that increase water retention. My thoughts were that if you super hydrate the muscle using A50�s or 50+ mg of dbol (men only in this case) this would stretch the fascia over a much longer time frame � say four to five weeks. This would get you that extra room for the muscle to grow. And even stack creaetine to further increase muscle hydration. Any comments? One word of caution on the synthol stuff, Judges are VERY aware of what it looks like and can spot it a mile away. By rule they can not discuss it with a contestant as to why they might have not placed as high � they are not allowed to discuss anything chemical. But believe me when I tell you judges HATE to see that stuff and you will not get in the top ten, even if there are only 11 in your class. I have actually seen oil leaking out of a guys arm cause he used so much. Now I realize not everyone is going to compete, so just be mindful of the risk vs. benefits of using this technique - which ever substance you decide to site inject. ------------------ Lobo | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 812 |
I've also enjoyed this thread. I confess I have NO INTENTION of site injecting anything, but it's intellectually stimulating to contemplate anyway. I am, and will always be an amateur athlete. I just don't see that any of these methods are really worth the pain and risks to get a slight edge in a sport that has no cash or career rewards. Plus I also am aware how much judges hate synthetic looking muscles. And I personally feel the likes of synthol and muscle implants demeans the sport to the lowest of levels. More of an art form than a sport. The hGH/IGF concept is intrigueing. I like the concept because to me they would still be real muscles, built with hard work. But again, it's all a bit out of my reach. Heck, at 40 years old I'm aiming more toward aging gracefully than having super-human calves. But for some of the younger competitors with a posiible career in front of them I think the future of BB will be fascinating. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 575 |
MS: Forgive my asking, but that comment about the hGH/IGF1 muscles being real was a poke at synthol, and not AS I hope??? Im against synthol, myself. Its interesting, but too obvious, and Im too cheap for implants  Warlobo: Im a Parrillo student, and have had great results with facsial planing, stretching and all of his nutrition ideals. (Except bulking. Im too lazy and gluttonous for them in that respect!) As for the orals for water retention... exactly. I feel that that very thing broke an arm plateau I was stuck at (I dont have the nerve to inject biceps). I got my arms up to 18 3/4 on dbol/sustanon at one point. And post cycle, after losing all the water was still at 17 1/2! Streeeeeeeetch it!!!! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 812 |
Yeah Monster, I was specifically referring to fake muscles. The muscles gained with AS are real enough! I'm also too cheap for implants. Too cheap for AS too, I suspect! That's the reason I am interested in WarLobo's Sust250 experiment. And the only reason I volunteered to go without the Nolvadex this year was to save money. Can't believe I ever contemplated hGH. Fascial stretching though, wonder if I could do that with the help of a high sodium/high progesterone diet! | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 575 |
Intense stretching of the muscle groups being worked can induce really good results too! (people dont appreciate the benefits of stretching between sets) Facsial planing (plane-ing) has to be done by a second person who is experianced in it. Im good at it, but it can be a little painful, since you do it to a muscle with a pump. But the results from it are nothing short of amazing! As far as the cost of AS... Im getting off cheaper than when I was buying supplements. IGF1 I dont like because it doesnt just affect skeletal muscle, it will grow ANY muscle. That leads to a lot of the distended midsections you see... those of us who are naturally muscular (I broke 200lbs natural) usually have a thick waist to begin with. In competition shape I still have a 34-35 inch waist. Thick thick abs, intercostals... so I dont want to risk it. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 92 |
I also like the idea of growing 'real' muscles -ones composed of genuine muscle cells. And the stretching should be a given, though the number of muscle cells won't go up this way. It's also kinda nifty to do splits comfortably. And here I am wondering whether it is the IGF or hGH that is causing the distended gut effect. Some competitors may just be taking large amounts of both right? Speaking from theory: The hGH will have a more generalized growth promoting effect, as it will stimulate production of Many growth factors. Including the various epidermal growth factors that would specifically stimulate the viscera? IGF should be less specific to the organs and such, and yield a more proportionate growth? Feedback on this? What else goes 'wrong with IGF? Immune problems? Storage and handling trouble? I imagine few of us have a lab freezer good for -20 Celcius or colder?
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 575 |
Well, the hGH potentiate the effects of IGF1, as it actually produces some itself. But both of them do cause growth in all tissue (hGH in bone too at high dose). AS is specific to skeletal muscle, but the otheres will just as soon grow your skin thicker and your intestines thicker. I think hGH alone at reasonable doses is safe, but IGF1 Im still shying away from... | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 11 |
I've had an effect similar to Artemis' as far as growth in specific areas--I started lifting around 13 yo, and always worked chest more than anything. Now my pecs stay developed ahead of my arms/legs. I suppose it could be a coincidence--ie, it really is just genetic, or it could be that there's a critical period around adolescence when excercise can induce muscle hyperplasia. Thus you end up with some areas better developed than others. That also might explain why some people have stubborn asymmetries--more muscle cells on one side than the other. I have thought about just hammering one or two body parts on a bulking cycle and working the rest of my body moderately as well. I wonder if the increased rest in the other muscle groups would lead to BETTER growth in the areas emphasized? I'm also surprised no one has mentioned using PGF 2a to induce localized growth. Isn't it supposed to be effective for this? I have heard the sides are awful. However, I wonder if there isn't a way to lessen the sides--say more frequent, but lower doses? | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 812 |
PGF2 is not a drug for women to mess with. We have toooo many receptors in our reproductive tract. Can you spell CRAMP? It's very painful for men and apparently unbearable for women. The muscle hyperplasia of youth is interesting. It is somewhat a chicken and egg question. Does an individual increase muscle cell hyperplasia by training a bodypart, or are they merely more likely to train that bodypart because they have naturally higher numbers of muscle cells? They say that sprinters are born to sprint, and marathon runners are born for endurance. Probably world class bodybuilders are born to build bigger bodies. A great example of that is Flex Wheeler and his "double muscle" (Myostatin) gene mutation. He also alledgedly has an unusual mutation in his IGF-1 receptor gene. | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 1309 |
Yah, Flex is a mutante! Good post MS, must admit I NEVER hear of a female taking PGF2. Just another case in point, what's good for the Gander is not always good for the Goose... or something like that.... Dang.... I think I'm starting to sound like Dad back on the farm...... ------------------ Lobo | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 15 |
GH and IGF-I are useless when administered systemically. Only a constant infusion of IGF-I directly into a muscle will elicit growth, but this has only been shown in animals. Talked to a couple of BBs that tried multiple daily localized intramuscular injections with IGF-I and it didn't do anything. I can't think of any mechanism that would support localized injections of AAS for a localized effect. If this were true, since many users inject into their glutes, we'd see BBs with glutes 10 times the size of other bodyparts, and that's generally not the case. Be careful with the concept of going on an AAS cycle and training the shit out of a bodypart to try and get it to grow disproportionately. You may well overtrain it and get it further behind the other bodyparts. F1hybrid | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 812 |
Well Now that you mention it F1, most high-dose AS users DO have dis-proportionately large butts. Aka roid butt. They blame it on heavy squatting, but that does not explain why it's out of proportion with all the other bodyparts they train heavy. It is just another small reason why I'm not ready to use AS. Larger butt without much improvement in calves is what I've observed with The AS users I know. This is not the look I'm after! | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 575 |
HAHAHA! I never thought about it! I actually have NEVER done a glute shot in my life. I wont shoot anyplace I cant see easily... But I guess that could be a reasonable theory, as my delts and quads ARE pretty damn big! I figured it was a genetic gift, but mabye its the site specific benefits, too. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 11 |
>Well Now that you mention it F1, most high-dose AS users DO have dis-proportionately large butts. Aka roid butt. They blame it on heavy squatting, but that does not explain why it's out of proportion with all the other bodyparts they train heavy. It is just another small reason why I'm not ready to use AS. Larger butt without much improvement in calves is what I've observed with The AS users I know. This is not the look I'm after! MS, what you just said is important to deciding whether site injections cause localized growth or not, so I think I should point some things out... First of all, you have to distinguish gluteus medius (g. med.) from gluteus maxiumus (g. max.). I always shoot in the g. med., and I must confess that they are a bit bulgier than they used to be before I started jabbing myself there (over the last 1 1/2 years). Squats on the other hand, hit the g. max. rather hard. So if you see lifters--AS users or not--and they have "big butts", remember to distinguish between the two muscle groups if you're trying to infer why they've developed as they have. Now if you're caught staring at someone's ass in the gym, you have an excuse, yes? ;^) Also, I'd venture to say that most men (myself included) LIKE a big butt on a woman, that is, if it's in the right shape. So, please girls, don't be afraid of making yourself grow down there! Good info about PGF 2a and women. It makes sense since the stuff is used to induce abortions in pigs. (No, I do not mean to say women are the same as pigs!!!) | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 1309 |
I really think this localizaton effect MIGHT happen - but only in high dose users over la ong, long time frame. For the rest of us, this is just not going to happen. MS, you ARE ready for a nice liitle anavar cycle.... you just don't know it yet ------------------ Lobo |
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posted August 28, 2000 06:24 PM