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  Help In Stop'en The Sides

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Author Topic:   Help In Stop'en The Sides
WarLobo

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From:CA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted July 21, 2000 11:06 AM

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This is a re-post from a guy who has helped me in so many areas that I can't even begin to say. He goes by Dr Bookworm and is one sharp cookie. Enjoy.

ACNE By Dr Book

Date: November 27, 1999 02:03 AM
Author: BookWorm
Subject: ACNE
Many of you guys have posted about breakouts during and immediately following your cycle. Usually the cycles consist of harsher androgens like Test, Dbol, Sust, etc.

In order to help you guys solve the problem, I'll explain briefly what's going on and tell you what worked for me.
The 5-Alpha-Reductase enzyme secreted by the prostate, folicular cells, and sebacial cells selectively transforms a 4-ene-3-oxosteroid (e.g., testosterone) irreversibly to the corresponding 5-3-oxosteroid (e.g., 5-dihydrotestosterone) in the presence of NADPH as an essential coenzyme at an optimal pH.

The hydride transferred from NADPH occurs at position 5 of T with protonation from solvent at the 4-position. The 5-hydrogen of DHT originates from the 4-pro-S proton of the nicotinamide ring. A proposed mechanism of 5-R action involves the direct donation of a hydride (H) from NADPH to the C-5 position of T, leading to the formation of an enolate that presumably would be stabilized by some electrophilic residue (E+) in the active site; however, this process may be viewed alternatively as activation of the enone by E+ leading to a positively polarized species that accepts a hydride from NADPH at C-5. Then enzyme-mediated tautomerism leads to the product DHT with release of NADP+. Both the development of the sebaceous glands and the onset of acne at puberty depend on the presence of androgens, but there is no correlation between testosterone blood levels and sebum production. The key and primary event in the pathogenesis of acne is the amplification in the skin of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT then binds to a specific DHT receptor. The heightened ability of skin with acne to metabolize testosterone is the critical factor which determines the occurrence and severity of the disease. Excess sebum production and abnormal follicular keratinization clog the pores, inflame the skin and provide a rich environment for local bacteria to thrive and contribute to infected lesions (pustules and cysts).
The effects of zinc sulphate and azelaic acid on 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin were studied using an in vitro assay with 1,2[3H]-testosterone as substrate. When added at concentrations of 3 or 9 mmol/l, zinc was a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase activity. At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity. Azelaic acid was also a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase; inhibition was detectable at concentrations as low as 0.2 mmol/l and was complete at 3 mmol/l. An additive effect of the two inhibitors was observed. Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc, but not of azelaic acid, suggesting that two different mechanisms are involved. When the three substances were added together at very low concentrations which had been shown to be ineffective alone, 90% inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity was obtained.
The inclusion of a more potent 1,5-AR inhibitor such as Finasteride in your cycles will improve your complexion.
Drugs like acutane and tetracycline are symptom-specific, but 5-10 mg/day of finasteride may prevent the problem from even starting.
I'm in week 10 of my cycle which consists of 90% testosterone enanthate, and with 5 mg/day of Finasteride, my acne has been very very mild. In fact, a little tan clears it right up.
Another benefit, of course, is hair retention. Lowering DHT levels can also spare your prostate and avoid the "thick" feeling (semi-obstruction) when you urinate.


Subject: A BIG PLUS FOR WOMEN.

Another thing I neglected to mention is, the hirsutism and masculinizing side effects experienced by women who cycle are from the elevated levels of DHT which is converted from Testosterone via the 5-AR enzyme. DHT is extremely androgenic and even a tiny amount in the body can cause unwanted facial hair, clitoral enlargement and deepening of the voice.
Using finasteride would lower internal DHT levels during a cycle and help prevent some of the nastier masculanizing side-effects associated with AS use.


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Artemis

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posted July 21, 2000 11:53 AM

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Good to know Dr. Book is still authoring (with that typical writing-style ). Does he suggest doses for zinc and azelaic acid?

Now we need some more ideas for easily-absorbable topical anti-androgens. Blocking DHT isn't a whole lot of help if we use AAS that Already have the 5-alpha reduced A-ring structure...

Do we really know that DHT is responsible for voice changes as opposed to T? There are also two (or more) different isoforms of 5-alpha reductase enzyme. Finasteride only blocks type 2, which is largely expressed systemic, while type 1 is expressed in the skin and hair follicules. The next generation of 5-alpha inhibitors will block both types. Spiffy!


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WonderWoman

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posted July 21, 2000 02:34 PM

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Help your iron sister out ya'll. Plain english or at least the Cliff Notes version please? What do I take to combat which sides? How much, how often, and duration of treatment? Pre, post or during cycle?
Highly informative post though. I am easily bogged down by cellular level science.
WW


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IronChick

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posted July 22, 2000 07:13 PM

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It looks like this guy's target audience is MDs and scientific types. Very difficult reading for the average person. I consider myself to be the average person, and therefore, had to read it several times, but this is my synopsis: He is describing how acne develops on the molecular level. The problem arises when levels of testosterone to DHT are too high and your skin cannot clear the Test fast enough or efficiently enough. Then he is suggesting what to take in order to stop this from occuring in the first place. Taking Finasteride stops this 5-AR action from occurring as opposed to Accutane and antibiotics which are employed once you are already all broken out in acne. It also sounds like zinc and Azaleic acid work with Finasteride synergistically to improve its effect. That's why the other guy is asking about dosages - the article doesn't recommend how much to take. I thought Azaleic acid was only a topical preparation. Maybe it comes in some other form? That's about all I think I understood and maybe I missed something critical, not sure. It would help to give your interpretation of an article like this for the layperson. Most people glaze over when you put this type of information in front of them.

------------------
{{-}}


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WarLobo

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posted July 25, 2000 04:53 PM

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Oh, I'm well aware of the "glazed donut effect". But I'm still going to bring this type of stuff to the table. The really key info I wanted to present was the last paragraph on the finasteride. I take 5mg per day (one tab) and have found it to help in controlling the many sides as a result of DHT conversion. The only reason I did not post this up earlier was that I was not clear on the side effects of the finastreide on women. There was an extensive spec sheet (I forget the name yo call them things) that came with the tabs and I wanted to do some checking.

For women, I would think 2.5mg per day would be just fine. If your interested I can post the web addy.

------------------

Late

Lobo


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WarLobo

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posted July 25, 2000 04:55 PM

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Oh, and one more thing.... Deca and fina are not to be used together.

------------------

Late

Lobo


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Artemis

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posted July 26, 2000 03:22 PM

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I vouch for the finasteride as Warlobo suggests. Half a tablet seems fine. Does anyone have a web-link to show the structural formulae of the various AAS? I have been trying to re-find such a page for WW. Mostly because a picture will make it much easier to understand what is meant by 5-alpha reduction etc...

For WW: go ahead and ask for clarification on any of this or Book's post. I'll do my best.

For Warlobo: Why not combine fina + deca? (not that I would dream of it...and it does seem redundant to use both) but did this give a progestational effect?


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WarLobo

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posted July 26, 2000 04:47 PM

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Humm, finasteride and deca, sorry about that. After I re-read the post it was confusing

LAte

Lobo


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Big Shan

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posted August 25, 2000 01:27 PM

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I too seem to have problems with acne when cycling AS, more so on the more androgenic gear. In the past I have used antibiotics (bactrim) to ease the side affects of acne. Currently I've been looking into accutane. I stumbled onto this topic, and it seemed very Interesting. Doing a little research on the net about (finastride) aka Proscar it also seems that Saw palmetto has same effects. However this being a herbal remedy brings much doubt as to weather or not it will stack up to an FDA approved medication. Anyone have any ideas or reaserch on Saw palmetto related to inhibiting the activity of this enzyme 5 alpha reductase? As accutane can be a potent option to solving my problem, I'm trying to cover and look into all options!


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WarLobo

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posted August 25, 2000 02:11 PM

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Check out the thread "Acne - Possible Solution?"

------------------
LAte

Lobo


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