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 MS - The natty issue cont'd
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| Author | Topic: MS - The natty issue cont'd |
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IronChick Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 40) |
posted July 17, 2000 05:08 PM
  
I started a new post since I am getting way off topic from the "Who is taking what?" post. This is a pretty long post and it may not be of interest to (BB) non-competitors cuz I don't think we have too many on here. BUT - u may want to read if you are thinking of competing without drugs or if you are just starting to compete on a local level. The problems don't start until you start trying to do higher level shows. This is what you have to look forward to (in the US, anyway). A little behind the scenes look. MS - The natural federations are trying to MATCH the IOC standards. That whole thing started because of the 50 year Weider battle to get BB into the Olympics. They got some kind of conditional approval for it to be a demo sport or something. Now is this insanity or what? What is the unspoken problem here? How in the hell is BB going to get into the Olympics? Anyway, the natural federations were gaining popularity here in the US and they figured there's no way the "other" federations can get in because of all the drug use. So, the IOC will logically choose a natural team to go, right? It's a pipe dream - it's not gonna happen, but that's what started all of this crack down with the banned substances within these orgs. It used to be quite simple - 4 basic questions on the poly regarding AAS, Diuretics, Insulin and Growth were the main focus. So, as drug-free competitors, we knew what the rules were. Once they started trying to match the IOC, all hell broke loose and you don't even know what the hell natural means anymore. On top of that, these retired ex-drug user competitors decided they saw an opportunity here and wanted to get back in the game and become natural. So, now we got this born-again natural thing going on in the background, too. So, I, too, am totally confused. I used the term OTC as the only way I knew to distinguish - a script drug from a supp on the shelf. You can't compete as a natural if you are using script drugs unless they are for some medical condition. They have a whole list of exceptions and some things can be taken when administered one way but not if they are administered another way. Does the average competitor understand all this crap? My head spins. I got pages of crap I can't do and take. I don't even understand what the hell half of it is, but apparently every item on that list has been shown to give some competitive advantage. And the BC Pills - what is up with that? They are only interested in drugs that give you a competitive edge in competition. I don't think there is any competitive edge in taking BC pills. However, they recently figured out that cocaine is a diet aid for some - they never cared about that type of drug until they made that connection, so it started appearing on the banned lists. You asked if the Natural Federations are banning more substances than the IOC - no, they are not, but they tailor it as they see fit. One federation has Ephedrine on the restricted list - you can't take it for the 21 days prior to contest. They have to do this crap because we have been allowed to use these substances all along so they have to phase it in slowly. The ultimate goal is IOC doping standards. Even that is fuzzy because they give you lists of doping classes with examples and then they cover their ass by saying it is not an exhaustive list. Well, I gotta be a damn pharmacist to know what's what. So, I came to the keep it simple plan. Just take the basic stuff that can't be banned - who knows - maybe they can find a reason to ban l-glutamine. When they reach their goal, they're gonna have two competitors that meet all the requirements and we're gonna have to bronze their asses for posterity. (Clenbuterol used to be considered a natural substance - yeah - it showed up in Bill Phillips very 1st supplement review circa 1993.) I spoke with one promoter in a natural org and my conversation basically was - what the hell are you doing? I no longer understand what I can and cannot take - the IOC has restrictions on caffeine and you guys are aiming to match these standards??? Where are you going to find these pristine competitors? I will not be able to compete in your org. I love my sport but I give up my coffee for no one. I know who Suzanna McGee is. I competed against her once. She competes in all of the federations - tested and non-tested. I haven't been to her web site and I am not sure how closely she follows the changes going on in the Natural Federations or what her views are. I am sure she will have no problem passing any tests since a new phenomena is occurring. The natural orgs have "cleansed" themselves right out of business. When these new bans came out, a lot of drug-free competitors couldn't pass these new standards or didn't want to even try. They lost half of their competitors in one fell swoop and are now trying to back-pedal out of this. They lost their momentum. You could probably talk them into letting you compete now if you came off a cycle 30 days ago. I mean they have lost all their credibility and they are desperate for competitors. I can't go backwards so the only choices for people like me are to retire or get on the shit. A good friend of mine is retiring because of this. She knows she can't beat drug competitors and there isn't anywhere left for us to compete. It's too bad. She is one of the best drug-free I have ever competed against. Her last show is over there in New Zealand - I don't know if it's the same one you are getting ready for. I have competed only in the natural orgs - that is - until this year. I finally jumped into the NPC to see what the hell was going on there - they got a few "natural shows" in their lineup and I thought I would see what their idea of natural is. I had been a spectator at plenty of their non-tested shows, but never any of their natural ones. It was just a baby-roid show. I guess they use their natural shows for the people who just want to touch on the AAS. I think I would have fit into the fitness lineup pretty well. That experience is a whole other post. I'll have to be sure to stay anonymous cuz if you say anything bad against the NPC, I'm afraid they'll put out a hit on me and blackball me.  They are the premier amateur BB federation in the US. If you want to get any media attention, 95% of it goes to their competitors. That's probably going to be the only place left for me to compete and there's no room for drug-free types there unless you like losing. In some ways, it will be a F***ing relief not to have to try to jump thru all these damn hoops - for what? So you can say you're natural and people look at you and say what exactly does that mean? And I gotta say: OK, well, depends on where are you located, have you ever used a drug, if so, when where how, how long ago and in what manner, do you drink coffee or use illicit drugs, AND have u ever used any of these things u can buy at the health food store but the FDA frowns on them so they are not illegal but grey area...and depending on the position of the stars in the sky during a full moon....you get the idea. So, the natural orgs did themselves in and the non-tested orgs helped. When they saw that "natural" was becoming popular they threw a few "natural" shows into their lineup so they could jump ont he bandwagon - yeah, we got natural shows, too, blah, blah. But nobody takes it seriously. They actually polygraph, too, but nobody ever fails. And you can take your poly one month prior to the show if you want. It's just for show. Everybody knows what's up and talk about it in hushed tones - did you hear that they gave so-and-so the polygraph 4 times...blah, blah. I am tired of it all. None of it matters. They tried this natural movement thing, but it just didn't work out. It got all distorted. And I didn't even mention the "light" users who compete in "natural" federations - the shows that are really supposed to be natural, not just the farce shows. The promotors are there to make money and they want the big, ripped competitors, too, so they do everything they can to get these people to pass the tests, too. I know one competitor who is natural and competes in one of these big pseudo natural shows year after year and consistently loses to someone who is using something. She acts like a good sport cuz that's how we all play the game and then says the real shit backstage. We all know what's going on. It's just such a damn mess to be involved in this circuit. They couldn't just keep it simple - these guys compete without AAS and these guys don't. Stay out of each other's shows and we all get along fine. And these promotors of natural shows thinking they were going to get so big - they lost their heads and blew it. I don't know what the competitive circuit looks like in New Zealand, but this is the limbo we have going on right now with the drug-free stuff. It's pretty much dead. That's why I'm out. Gotta find a new home. That's my cyncial rant. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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MS Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 578) |
posted July 17, 2000 07:20 PM
Wow. Good of you to vent a little. There is the 'World Naturals' show in NZ sometime soon, but I don't know anything about it. All I know is that if I get asked for a urine sample at my next show (which is the equivalent of an NPC comp, NOT a natty) I have to pass to IOC standards. I know that (banned or not banned) they cannot yet detect GH, insulin, GHB, IGF etc....., and I also know that many other 'drugs' such as Nolvadex, are not tested for at all. Ephedrine is tested for, but I can take that up to 14 days before the test and be OK. Caffeine has to be taken in pretty large quantities (more than I'll ever drink in one day) to fail their test. Basically, as you pointed out, they're only interested in getting acceptance as an olympic sport, and they don't really care how you pass the test as long as you don't embarass the federation at international, tested events. I have NO idea who thought a 'natural' bodybuilding event could ever really fly. Would you want to be up against another woman who has had breast implants when you haven't? This happened to me last year at the same time I was told by the judges that I was not allowed to put padding in my posing top! And what about calf implants, or synthol? Yet the sport if rife with just such 'unnatural' and unbanned activity. So even without steroids, the concept was destined to fail. So we agree that you either play the game to your own standards and acccept your 'fate', or get out? Everyone's standards are different, and the people who most desperately want to win will always be willing to go to more extreme measures. I hope you're not serious about giving up just because some of the competition doesn't play fair! IP: Logged |
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IronChick Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 40) |
posted July 17, 2000 09:49 PM
Alright, I was going off there but I think about this stuff a lot and there's not too many who can relate. My friend who is retiring from BB got an email full of it a couple weeks ago. Anyway, yeah I know they haven't figured out a cost effective efficient way to test for the GH and the insulin. People who can afford it have been capitalizing on that using very small dosages of GH and competing naturally. They can't get you on a piss test but they ask about it on the polygraph. I know there are some people who can convince themselves they are not lying and pass but I am not one of those. I know it ain't the best, but it does weed out some. I have seen a few people fail at the shows where the testing was legit. I think they even do that random piss test thing at the IFBB shows don't they and occasionally pop a guy on diuretics. A little dog and pony show. The stuff about breast implants was new to me. As far as I know, none of the orgs I know of ever said a thing about that. Not like it's a muscle. And the padding in the bikini top - I never heard that! That should be OK. There's no advantage as far as muscle. I know the orgs make their own rules. I know the pec and calf implants and synthol implants are not OK but I don't know how commmon that is with amateurs. No, I didn't mean I wanna quit competing....I guess I mean I gotta quit being natural. I just don't like all the side effects I have read about. I see these swollen clitoris posts and deepening voice and acne and I'm like - do I want to deal with this? Then there was the thread regarding the natural gains stopping after you start to use. Couldn't wrap my mind around that whole discussion. It's just a whole different way - they train different, they prepare for contest different, I assume everything is different. So this stuff is not an issue for you in NZ? Are you not having a problem competing against users? Is the piss test keeping people clean or can they all afford GH? You're probably doing alright since you have some weapons - Clen and Nolvadex and things like that. Maybe I'll try those kinds of things first. This AAS thing seems inevitable, tho. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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JayeLynn Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 254) |
posted July 18, 2000 12:17 PM
IC - damned near everything breaks down to choice and it will be up to you which and/or whether you compromise your values. I learned that best in grad school. So you don't want to do aas, then don't. The ultimate competition is all about you and you alone. On the other hand, if public competition is what you're all about and you want the same edge then there's work, research and sacrifices youre gonna have to address. Just make sure that you like who/what you see when you look into the mirror....and I'm not talking just about your cuts and curves ------------------ IP: Logged |
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FitnessChick Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 1028) |
posted July 18, 2000 01:02 PM
whoa!!!!!!! IP: Logged |
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BigPappa Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 550) |
posted July 18, 2000 01:05 PM
BBoard Netiquette Golden Rule: keep your posts to one simple paragraph, if you want most readers to participate.
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bikinimom Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 254) |
posted July 18, 2000 01:25 PM
I'm a little confused, at what particular level of competition is every substance known to mankind banned? ...state, national, what? Ephedrine - WTF?! IP: Logged |
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MS Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 578) |
posted July 18, 2000 03:06 PM
Verbage? I'm a verbivore, so that's all I eat. IOC rules-no ephedrine OR clen. I've never used clen-I don't like the way it strips fat off a women's face, and at my age it might never come back. I compete without AAS against the vast majority of AAS users in my sport. I don't care. Like JayeLynn said, you do what feels right to you. And yes, the IFBB AMATEUR international comps do full drug testing as well (remember Weider's PRIME DIRECTIVE), but the pros only get tested for diuretics. So unless you go natural or compete at international level then you're good to take whatever you want. In NZ most competitors take what they want and count on missing out on the small number of random tests handed out. Most people I know say they'll just hand back their trophy if asked to pee in a pottle. Everyone else has swapped over to NABBA who do no testing, ever. Just remember it's a HOBBY, a RECREATION and a WAY OF LIFE. It's not a life or death situation, so do it because you enjoy it and like the results you get with your body. And don't forget the IFBB change in judging criteria for female physique competitors means (in theory) that a women will now get marked down for "excessive muscularity". This should trickle down to the NPC level, shouldn't it? IP: Logged |
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IronChick Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 40) |
posted July 18, 2000 03:53 PM
Hey Pappa I warned it was long. I have read thru some very long posts on this board with some interesting material in them. If it doesn't interest me, I just skip it. Jaye - whew that's harsh - I'm not ALL about public competition, but that's what I do and where I am at so my BB focus is competition. Yes, I do this for me, but when I step on stage I do it to win. If I don't win, it's OK as long as I have improved since my last show. I am competitive. BB is a very competitive sport EVEN amongst recreational BBs. Witness the peacocking that goes on in most gyms. It is hard to win if you are not using and others are. I am familiar with work, research, and sacrifices because that's what has gotten me to where I am. Not like I am some big superstar, but I am respected by competitive BBs who use AAS and many think naturals are a joke. (sorry to say that) I have taken it to a high level and it has been damn hard - talk about sacrifices...I have given up a lot to do it. But, I have no regrets because I love the life and the path it has taken me on and would never trade the experiences I have had and the people I have met. I'm just at a fork in the path road now. Hey Bikini it doesn't matter what level you compete at - it is the federation you compete in - most of the natural ones are matching the IOC regs which is pretty much every substance known to man. MS - OK sounds like the same deal going on here with the big televised nat shows - random piss test - competitors use whatever and play the odds game. The change in female ruling has been instituted in the NPC. I just got the letter a few weeks ago. It said something like we will be placing more emphasis on skin tone and makeup or some stupid wording like that. Those things are so ambiguous they just confuse competitors and they are not sure what the heck they are supposed to come in looking like. We'll see. I know a natural getting ready for a big NPC show. She's a LW with outstanding conditioning, so maybe can get away with decent placing. I dunno. I would get murdered as a HW. The women's open HW classes at these shows are larger than my BF. This may be geography, too. I'm in L.A. Forget about it....big women. Maybe I will spectate to see what type of physique they reward. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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MS Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 578) |
posted July 18, 2000 04:13 PM
Yeah, I choked when I read that stuff about healthy skin-tone and make-up. As if they could see your skin-tone under all that make-up and fake tan! It smacked too much of fitness chick material for my liking, especially when combined with the 'not excessively musclur' criteria. We'll see. I just hope at my next competition the judges will be paying more attention to my biceps than my eye-shadow. Maybe you and I will have to become fitness chicks to survive 'au naturelle'. But that would mean implants, and I don't want to go there  IP: Logged |
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bikinimom Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 254) |
posted July 18, 2000 05:02 PM
I got the letter last week, too and at first, I thought - maybe, as a natural lightweight, I could actually have a shot someday at winning something more than second. (I just started competing so I haven't yet scratched the surface, I feel, of my genetic potential.) But, in truth, though I am very competitive and I WANT TO WIN - I don't mind being beat fair and square, this drives me even harder to come back and do better. What I find disheartening is when YOU KNOW and EVERYONE ELSE WHO HAS TWO EYES THAT FUNCTION MINIMALLY AND DON'T KNOW DIDDLY-DO ABOUT BB KNOW that you were robbed. This has already happened to me even though I've only competed twice. The first show (NPC) the girl who took first (I got second) did beat me hands down. My second competition (ANBC) was mind-boggling. I took third to a woman who was described as "rectangular" by people who I showed the photos (taken at the AM judging) to. This description attests to the viewers lack of BB knowledge - EVEN THEY COULD SEE! She has a midsection like a man, no leg development, ZERO LATS, all this and she HAD NO CLUE WHATSOEVER ABOUT PROPER POSING - She did not know how to execute the most basic poses. Yet she won 2nd over me! But, you know - second or first - it still wasn't first. So all in all it doesn't matter all that much. Incidentally, the overall winner (I wish to God I had a photo.) beat out 2 HW and a MW - all three with beautiful physiques (the MW won best poser) was an ANOREXIC!!!!! No exageration! We all felt sorry for her because she looked like she should be rushed to a facility for treatment - IMMEDIATELY! She was totally void of any mass. You could see what was left of her glutes HANGING from her pelvic girdle!!!! When I saw this I thought to myself, "If that is what the best overall looks like - I'M DAMNED HAPPY TO HAVE PLACED THIRD!" Thank god my daughters were not present to see this poor emaciated girl walk off the stage with a 6 1/2 foot tall trophy! I don't know if I could ever undo the possible damage this sight would have inflicted on my daughters' impressionable minds! Now that I've REALLY strayed from the topic at hand, I guess you have to do what makes you happy. I'll continue to compete for as long as I enjoy it. How long this will be? Well I'm one stubborn MOFO and I'm not going to lay down until I've drawn my last breath! Will the letter mean squat - we'll see. I'll be competing on Sept 30. I'll let you all know! IP: Logged |
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IronChick Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 40) |
posted July 18, 2000 06:16 PM
Yes MS that was it! - "not excessively muscular" - hahaha - as I tossed it in the trash I thought "hmmmm, now I have to try not to get too big." Yeah, that's always been a problem for me... Bikini - ANBC is a Natural for Life org (unless u took Clen 7 years ago and the list goes on) but they are doing the back-pedaling thing I was talking about, too - suddenly they are allowing andros and tribulus. They're doing it cuz the turnout for their shows probably sucks. But it's about time some of these orgs got their heads out and said we aren't going to ban legal stuff. Gets too damn confusing for us. You're right on about getting beat by a worthy competitor! It has happened to me - I know she was natural and her conditioning beat me. And it does spur you on - actually I had seen her at a show where I was spectating. She came in from another country and blew the doors off the other girls. My jaw was hanging and that don't happen too much at the nat shows. I prepared for my next show with only her in mind cuz she won that show and it qualified her for a bigger one, so I knew she would be back. She was not at my next show and I did win. So, I still had her in my mind for motivation. It was at my next show where I spied her. And believe me I was looking for her. I love a good competition. I won my class - she won hers - posedown - she won. My BF tripped out on the whole thing cuz he said we were so damn similar genetically it looked weird on stage when we were doing the same poses. After the show her husband came up to me and introduced himself and said the same thing about the similar genetics. He said he was her trainer and he thought I was the best natural competitor he ever saw her compete against. Made me feel good after she had just kicked my ass. Anyway, tells me that's why he wants to give me some advice. He zeroes in on my exact problem which I had been experimenting with and trying to solve. He had my little problem analyzed and starts telling me some little tricks he does with his wife's contest prep. Anyway, I wind up becoming good friends with both of them. The husband is literally a genius - he designs ALL of her posing routines, does her nutrition, everything...anything he gets into he turns to gold. I tell her I like some of her posing and some of it looks like ballet moves - where do you get your ideas? Really original stuff. She says she doesn't do any of it - all the husband - he looks at a ballet video once and has this photographic memory and creates all these beautiful routines for her and teaches her to do it. He is a total detail freak. The diet stuff is all to the exact gram - he writes a program to calculate all of her nutritional stuff - the guy is too much - everything just to the T - so professional. I told him if he was in the US he would be my contest trainer. I'm jealous of that deal - he doesn't do BB so she gets his full attention for contest prep. I've also got beat by drug users and that does suck the big one. But BB fans are pretty saavy - I think they do know the difference between enhanced and not. Thing I felt was they just don't care - doesn't matter - whoever looks better. Nobody differentiates between how you got there once you are up there. They're just looking at the end product of all your hard work and in that matter it is probably true they don't know the diff in what they are looking at. Luckily, I never got beat by anyone who was shabby or looked like a rectangle, drugs or not. It's so hard to comment on judging and if you didn't see the pre-judging who knows what they are seeing unless you talk to them. You're running into these problems already cuz you are in NPC world and that's why I tried to avoid that for as long as I could. And that stuff about people not being able to do the mandatory poses - that is totally a natural org problem. I know what you are talking about. It's cuz they are not strict enuf! The NPC lays down the law about that stuff like I always wished the natural orgs would. You can't get any damn respect for your org when your people can't even do quarter turns in a professional looking manner. Looks so piss poor. Although I did compete in one show where they brought in this one tough NPC judge and he yelled at a girl cuz he had already given the instructions and she still kept doing it her way. She got all miffed, but, I could understand what he was trying to accomplish. If they're not able to execute a lat spread or whatever, maybe they should be in the novice. The NPC show I did - the women in my class were all veterans, I thought. Very professional posing. One of them had a coach who was a dancer and a skater and you know they all got teams of people working for them. She was a mag model. They got people custom making their suits. Tough comp. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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WarLobo Moderator (Total posts: 905) |
posted July 19, 2000 11:02 AM
Next time your at a show, take a look at the age of the judges.... what "era" are they from? If it is anything like it is out here on the west coast, then you can start to imagine the problems with change. I have only seen one judge under 40 (guess who that is  ) Most of these folks have held bigger is better philosophy for so long and hell, fitness is only a few years old to begin with. In their defense, women�s body building is one hard class to judge. What's to big? Where is the point of looking to much like a man. And now with women's fitness you have the add problems of extreme AS use resulting in excessive muscle mass, and very low bodyfat. It is sooo subjective with women. I do not know of one judge who looks forward to judging a large class of women�s fitness or bbing. You get very little time to really look them over. And then they change on you! I've seen some freaky things happen to a body in just the few hours between the judging and the night show.Late Lobo IP: Logged |
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MS Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 578) |
posted July 19, 2000 02:58 PM
You've hit it on the head WL. Most of the judges I know have become judges because of thier history as competitive BB's during the Huge is Best Era. But I still cannot understand why many judges would ignore aesthetics and choose purely on muscle. We've all seen the blocky, rectangular (brick-shit house) women with huge butts win their classes and best of show purely because they have the most muscle. Last time I read rules for NPC judges they mention the importance of symmetry, good condition (ie leanesss) etc.... So why would a man or women who is less lean and has crappy symmetry automatically win. Yes I know mass is important too and this is not just a natty vs AS question. I just wonder where the common sense has gone to in the judging seats. I'm guessing it's driven mainly by the DOLLAR. People want to see freaks. If you discourage freaks from competing (by awarding them last place) then the crowds will stop paying to see these events. Again this is not a natty issue, but an economic one that affects the natty's as well. I think the best we can do is to compete because we want to, and don't worry about the ugly freaks beating you. Get up on that stage and KNOW that you look better than the first place winner (if that's true), or know that you've got more work to do to look as good as the winner if they won because they actually looked better than you (by your standards). IP: Logged |
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bikinimom Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 254) |
posted July 19, 2000 03:09 PM
I couldn't sleep last night so I was doing a little surfing. Ended up at MM.com . They had photos of a recent NPC BB show and lo and behold - (maybe I don't know what I am looking at and, of course, it is only still photography - I wasn't there) but the leanest most muscular women DID NOT WIN! Hell, take a look at the fitness competitor who won overall. Even in fitness 2/3 of the score is supposed to be physique, isn't it? I'm not saying that the woman who won shouldn't have won - I'm no judge. But what I'm saying is that now if I wasn't confused before - NOW I AM UTTERLY CONFUSED! I'll just keep competing as long as I continue to improve and as long as I enjoy it. I'm almost ashamed to say that I get a "rush" stepping out onto stage as if to say, "I'm so damned proud of myself!" I guess once this is gone, I'll hang it up. IP: Logged |
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IronChick Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 40) |
posted July 19, 2000 06:24 PM
Yeah, the judges are dinosaurs and set in their ways. And there are some - like my training partner who say this is BB - doesn't matter if it's women - the nature of the sport is based on getting bigger. Big is fine with me, but in my mind the requirements needed to keep the feminine look are small waist, small joints, and no Megatron jawbones. Yep, fitness comps have evolved into the same dilemma in a much shorter period of time. No more naturals in the pro ranks. Not that there were many, anyway. The ones that were had intense pressure due to the unattainable conditioning of their peers. Some gave in and the rest retired. I do think it is an issue of AS vs Nat. The judging at the NPC show I did was pretty right on. They rewarded the women who were the hardest, most symmetrical, and conditioned. The biggest didn't win. But, the hardness and condition they had can only be attained thru drug usage. I have never, ever heard a female natural competitor say she was worried about getting too freakishly big and needs to taper down. We all know that is an impossibility without the right hormones. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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