posted May 16, 2000 09:15 PM            

With all the talk on stacking this with that, how much protein, carbs or fat should one eat, and all the different work out regimes, I thought I would post up my vitamin and mineral supplement plan both while on and off a cycle. Cause lets face it, all the protein and 'roids in the world won't amount to a hill of beans if you not getting the required amount of V&M to BUILD that muscle. Feel free to make any comments to better improve what I've come up with. BTW, I'm 5'9" and right at 230 lbs. My BF is a bit up right now as I'm heading into a new cycle with a goal of adding some 15lbs of quality muscle and dropping about 10lbs of fat. So here it is

A 20000IU

B1 (Thiamin)150mg - Fat-soluble forms of thiamin, called allithiamins, are superior to water-soluble forms.

B2 (Riboflavin) 125mg.

B3 (Niacin, Niacinamide)50mg.

B6 (Pyridoxine)30mg - Pyridoxine hydrochloride is every bit as good as pyridoxal-5-phosphate (P-5-P) and 0 is often much cheaper. Pivotal role in the formation of heme, a portion of hemoglobin, affects B12 absorption and B6 levels.

B5 (Pantothenic Acid)75mg.

Folate ( Folic Acid, Folacin)400mcg - Affects iron status, must have folate to keep iron stores up.

B12 (Cyanocobalamin)10mcg - Required to make blood cells and essential for normal folate metabolism. Dibencoside is a derivative of B12, very expensive and your body converts it from B12 anyway.

C (Ascorbate) 5g off cycle / 8g on cycle -Calcium or magnesium ascorbate versions are better than regular ascorbic acid. Ester-C is a scam. Major antioxidant - use for cycle. Use in multiple dose, can cause diarrhea. Insufficient C will reduce your folate & iron stores.

D (Cholecalciferol) 10mcg - RDA is 10 mcg, this is as much as you want to supplement - toxic at 5x RDA.

E (D-alpha-tocopherol) 1000mg off cycle / 1500 on cycle - Major antioxidant, use for cycle. Essential for normal metabolism of B12, Zinc, and red blood. Major effect on immune strength. Do not get the synthetic dl-alpha-tocopherol.

K (Phylloquinone) 100mcg - Do not get the menadione form of Vitamin K.

Biotin 1000mcg - Raw egg whites contain avidin which prevents absorption.

Choline 250mg

Inositol 200mg

Coenzyme Q10 (Ubiquinone) 30mg off cycle / 60on cycle - Major antioxidant.

Bioflavonoids 250 mg - Many Vitamin C supplements have these combined.

Pyrolloquinolone Quinone (PQQ) No know dose - best sources are unprocessed citrus fruits.

Para-amino-benzoic Acid (PABA) 25 mg

Word up Ladies!!!!

Calcium 1500mg - Take main supply at night, flux is greatest during sleep. Breads / cereals, spinach, rhubarb, cocoa, chocolate, and coffee inhibit absorption.

* Calcium gluconate - Only 9% elemental calcium - don't buy it

* Calcium carbonate - 40% elemental calcium (e.c.) with a 39% absorption rate (a.r.)

* Calcium acetate 23% e.c. with a 32% a.r.

* Calcium citrate 21% e.c. with a 30% a.r.

* Calcium lactate 14 % e.c.

* Milk 1% e.c. with a 27% a.r.

Magnesium 1200mg - Cramps can be a sign of low mag. Get Mag. Aspartate-10x better.

Potassium 250mg

Iron 20mg - Calcium, fiber, and antacids inhibit absorption. Vitamin C helps absorption.. Iron sulphate or iron oxide is useless compared to ferrous fumarate or iron picolinate.

Zinc 30mg - Large doses interfere with copper metabolism. Use zinc picolinate. Affects iron status, must have zinc to keep iron stores up.

Copper 2mg

Manganese 5mg

Chromium 400mcg - Use C. picolinate, not C. chloride or C. nicotinate

Selenium 400mcg - Use L-selenomethionine or Horsetail herb. Sodium selenite is useless. Very good antioxidant.

Iodine 125mcg

Boron 4mg - Use boron citrate and/or aspartate.

Molybdenum 100 mcg

N-acetyl cysteine 400mg only while on cycle Major antioxidant - can prevent muscle damage

L-glutathione 75mg off cycle / 300mg on cycle Major antioxidant - can prevent muscle damage in conjunction with N-acetyl - use for cycle.

L-carnitine 1g/2g - Take one hour before exercise. DL-carnitine or racemix carnitine is toxic.

Branched Chain Amino Acids - Eaten with meals throughout the day.

* Leucine 2.5g off cycle / 5g on cycle
* Valine 2g off cycle / 4g on cycle
* Isoleucine 1g off / 2g on

Evening Primrose Oil 2000mg off / 4000mg on

Flaxseed Oil 1000mg off / 2000mg of - Liquid form only.

Milk Thistle 500mg on only.

Glucosamine 2000mg - optional (for you old farts

Melatonin 20mg - Taken about 30 min before bed, very nice sleep (yes� 20mg) I LOVE THIS SHIT!

I also take a daily ounce of a poly -colloidal mineral with a big glass of water. Now I'm not 100% sure this is all it's cracked up to be, but it's only like $9.00 for a months supply and if it is even half of what "they" say then it is worth it to me.

Now some of you might think this is a bit over board, but my strength and weight gains have been showing a nice, steady improvement since I took a hard look at my "legal" supplementation. I've been tracking my expenses, found a good vitamin mail-order supply company, and for BOTH my wife and I it has been running about $120 a month. (It does help to buy in bulk and get that discount.)

Late

Lobo

p.s. SHIT, that took about an hour to line up and post

posted May 16, 2000 10:21 PM            

This is a good reminder that DIET is about a lot more than macro-nutrient ratios. I don't even like to use the word diet-it's soo loaded with conotations. I like to use the term nutrition when talking about what we put in our bodies. When you get down to the nitty-gritty the combo of nutrition, training, rest and mental state (genetics too)are 100% of the ingredients for making progress when you're not on A/S and close to 95% of the game when you are 'ON'. I get more than a little upset when I see (mainly young male) athletes on juice who eat nothing but rubbish (KFC/Pizza/ McD/alcohol etc....) and think that their gear will make it all work for them. GRRRRRR. I know you ladies (and lots of nice guys like WarLobo) are much more interested in their long-term health than that! So your eat your grains and vegies and take your vitamins. Pretty please?

posted May 17, 2000 12:31 AM            

1st Vit with the mid morning snack, 1st min just after lunch, 2nd vit just after supper and the biggest mineral dose just before bed.

Late

posted May 17, 2000 02:26 PM            

This ratio and interconnectivity is well documented and is called the vitamin mineral wheel. It show al the relationships of what interacts with what. Cool reading.

This is why your vitamins and minerals must be taken in the proper manner. It's not as hard as you might think. And yes, some days I don't take everything I should. Other times I plain for get to pack them up for the day. BUT you get in the habit and it becomes second nature. Heck I can pound some 10 pills in one swallow.... please, no off color jokes :P

Also, this is based for a 230 pound guy, for you ladies, I have done one for my wife (130lbs) and it is on average about 25% less across the board for dosages.

Most of these dosages come from many articles I've read over the years and with some correspondence with Dr. Michael Colgan and his institute up in Canada. He has done vast amounts of studies with elite athletes and what their bodies truly need to build and maintain muscle. Of course he wanted me to spend a week up their for one of his seminars, but I figured I'd save the five grand and read up on my own - much of this stuff is published on the web. Just have to WADE through allot of BS.

I've even got some testing reports on different companies to see if they are really putting in what they say.... you might be very surprised. Then again you all are probably well aware of the scams.

If this thread continues and there is some interest I'll post up the brands I take...course it will take some persuasion as I hate posting tables

Late

Lobo

posted May 31, 2000 02:11 PM            

Most nutrional texts will have one. May have to thumb through a few and check if they have it.

Late

posted May 31, 2000 02:45 PM            

My original post may have seemed a bit overwhelming, BUT it's not as hard as you might think. And I wanted to 'splane what some of the basic benefits/drawbacks of each vitamin and mineral.

However, it still may be a bit to much. And my general feeling is that many of you have put it aside - it would be much to dificlult and time consumming. SO! Instead of doing nothing and letting the issue flop on the ground like a deing fish, what I've done is to create a condensed, basic plan that will get you in the ball park.

First of all I am very picky about the brands. Did a lot of homework on this. Time and time again Twinlab came back with near perfect results. So, here is the deal....

Get the TL Daily Two Caps (without iron).
Get the TL Multi Mineral Caps.
Get the TL Tri-Boron Plus.

In the morning (with a meal!) take one Daily.
Mid morning (say round 10:00am) take two Tri-Boron and two Multi Mineral.
Mid afternoon (say round 4:00) take one Daily.
Then right before bed take two Tri-Boron and two Multi Mineral.

Now the minerals are dirt cheep, under $10 each. The vitamins are bit more, like $30 or so for the big jar of 180 caps.

And there you have it, a basic, easy plan that is going to help you build and MAINTAIN your muscle. This will also help you by reducing your food cravings. Please realize that the results will not instantaneous, and it may take several weeks if not months to correct mineral deficiencies.

There was a GREAT article a ways back in one of the major mags that tested several of the top pro BB'ers for mineral deficiencies and EVERY SINGLE GUY was found to have at least one lacking. So if these guys with all their resources and support failed - then I will bet everyone on this board is damn near to a critical level in at least one - if not more areas in their V/M program.

Late

Lobo

posted June 01, 2000 01:15 PM            

This has been an on going struggle with me for a long while. I was curious as how you manage all of this four times day? I am no busier than everyone else but always seem to get side tracked and miss. I was wondering if you perpackage this and have it with you or are you messing with the bottles?

Anyway I found myself making up prepackages and forgetting and what ever and gave up to using a prepackage vendor supp's.

That would bring me to this question - Do you recommend any per-package products?

I would also like your thoughts on this product. universal's animal paks

www.netrition.com

Go to the above web page - look under universal and then the product animal pak. Sorry wouldn't allow direct link.

I have asked this on other boards and have never got anyone to give a real opinion.
Hey any help is appreciated.

With a little more pushing you should see my wife on here shortly. She was reading the other night and I can see the bug taking effect.
Peace

posted June 01, 2000 02:13 PM            

The iron is in the multi mineral caps. You can get the vitamins with the iron - up to you.

Late

posted June 01, 2000 02:34 PM            

I have an office job for the most part. So what I do is buy two bottles of everything and keep one of each at home and work. Everyone at work gives me a ribbing or two as I have a entire file cabinet drawer filled with all my "drugs". But hey, they love me

With the "basic plan" your only popping a few pills and they are when your eating. Should not be to dificult. When I go on travel I pack them up in a pill box. You can find them at any drug store.

When I take the full on cycle dose of vitamins and minerals, it takes a whopping three min. to open every jar and bottle. Fill a glass of water and down them. I mix up my protein shakes, fix a snack or two and BOOM, 20 min later I'm set for the day. It did take some practice and you need to refine your kitchen - I have my own cabinet area and blender But it is really very easy.

As far as other brands, I�ll do some checking. But it takes a lot of work and as I�ve said before, the TwinLab stuff just keeps coming up good. However, I do order from a generic mail order company for the basic stuff like the extra vit C, milk thistle, and such. I do have a detailed spread sheet on each item for exact dose, order number, and cost. Drop me a line and I�ll e-mail you a copy.

AND GET YOUR LADY ON HERE

Late

posted June 01, 2000 07:32 PM            

Late

posted June 02, 2000 10:07 AM            

Well, I'm not sure you have many options unless your willing to take them all seperate. I've not come across a mulit that did not have it. Course, I wern't looking all that hard either.

Might want to give TwinLabs a call and see if they might not have something... worth a shot.

Late

posted June 05, 2000 09:56 PM            

Almonds � cup 200 mg
Buckwheat � cup 186 mg
Cashew nuts � cup 169 mg
Wheat bran � cup 168 mg
Spinach, boiled 1 cup 148 mg
Soybeans, cooked 1 cup 141 mg
Wheatgerm � cup 130 mg
Peanuts � cup 124 mg
Baked beans 1 cup 105 mg
Beet greens 1 cup 92.2 mg
Halibut, baked 85g 87.0 mg
Black-eyed peas, cooked 1 cup 81.7 mg
Brown rice, cooked 1 cup 79.8 mg
Kidney beans, canned 1 cup 75.1 mg
Chickpeas, cooked 1 cup 74.1 mg
Artichokes, steamed 1 artichoke 72.0 mg
Green peas 1 cup 58.9 mg
Apricots, dried 1 cup 58.0 mg
Oatmeal, cooked 1 cup 53.2 mg
Sweetcorn 1 cup 49.4 mg
Raisins 1 cup 45.6 mg
Wholewheat spaghetti, cooked 1 cup 39.9 mg
Avocado � avocado 35.0 mg

CARNITINE
Humans can synthesize a small amount of carnitine from the amino acid lysine. Given sufficient lysine and cofactors, we can synthesize some portion (perhaps 25%) of the carnitine we need for optimal energy production. The rest has to come from diet and supplements. Meat, fish, milk, eggs, cheese and other animal products in general contain preformed carnitine. Mutton and lamb are particularly rich sources, followed by beef. Human milk also contains relatively high levels of carnitine, since newborns are at first incapable of producing it. Eggs are a poor source of carnitine. Plant food contains at best only negligible amounts of carnitine, with the exception of somewhat higher levels in avocados and tempeh.
Due to high consumption of red meat, the Stone Age hunter probably got at least 500 mg of carnitine a day, and possibly as much as 2 grams. Today the average carnitine intake is estimated at a mere 30 to 50 mg a day. Strict vegetarians consume practically no carnitine. Since their diet may also be poor in lysine and methionine, vegetarians are likely to be especially deficient in carnitine. Consequently carnitine levels are low in vegetarians consuming chiefly a grain-based diet. And hardly anyone gets the 250 to 500 mg of carnitine per day that is regarded as optimal (with more needed under stress and other special circumstances). In order to get 500 mg, we would have to consume over two pounds of beef every day.

MELATONIN

Consumers should be aware that sleep-promoting compounds are found in a number of foods. Rather than popping a pill at bedtime, a person with a mild case of sleeplessness could try a bedtime snack that includes foods such as milk, peanuts, turkey, chicken or almonds. All of these foods contain tryptophan, which raises brain serotonin that in turn can be converted to melatonin.
Eating a tryptophan-containing food along with a high-carbohydrate food will help enhance the entry of tryptophan into the brain. Thus, Grandma's bedtime warm milk with honey is actually a sound sleep aid! Many foods also contain melatonin, but in such tiny amounts that someone would have to eat an enormous amount to get an effective dose (a snack of 72 bananas, for example, to get 0.3 mg of melatonin).
Who Should Avoid Melatonin?
Because we lack adequate information on the safety and effectiveness of melatonin, it is especially important that particular groups of people avoid using melatonin:
1.Women who are trying to conceive, are pregnant or are nursing a baby. Large doses of melatonin may prevent ovulation, and the hormone has not been tested for effects on the fetus during pregnancy. Melatonin can be found in breast milk; the effect of large doses on nursing basies is unknown.
2.People with disorders involving the immune system, such as severe allergies, autoimmune diseases (like rheumatoid arthritis) or immune-system cancers (like lymphoma). High doses of melatonin may stimulate the immune system and may worsen such conditions.
3.Children, who naturally produce high levels of melatonin, should not take supplements of the hormone. Its effects on them are unknown.
4.People with severe mental illness. High doses given during he daytime have worsened the symptoms of some patients.
5.People taking steroid medication. Melatonin may counteract the drugs' therapeutic effects.
6.People under 40 years old. Normal melatonin production declines most rapidly only after age 40.
7.People taking monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitors. Current melatonin preparations may be contaminated by substances that could itneract dangerously with these drugs.
8.People who don't want to lower their natural production of estrogen, testosterone and thyroid hormones, which high doses of melatonin will do.

posted June 06, 2000 01:40 PM            

How might someone be tested for deficiencies?

posted June 06, 2000 01:45 PM            

Really, though, good stuff.

Logistically speaking, it darn near impossible to get the necessary amounts of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients your body need to grow and build the type of physique we are all shooting for.

I'll even go so far as to say in IS IMPOSIBLE. Without supplementation there is just no way we can consume enough food to meet the intense requirements of BBing. Mother Nature never intended for a 5'9" guy to walk around at some 230lbs with a b.f. under 15%. Let alone a women drop below 20% b.f. at any weight. Our whole mission, if you will, is to circumvent millions of years of evolution and without current technology it would be impossible.

At some point if you wish to progress, you will need to use supplements - at the very least a good vitamin and mineral program with some extra protein tossed in for good measure.

Late

posted June 06, 2000 02:53 PM            

But I also agree with Artemis about cycling vitamins. The body does appear to adapt to chronically high intakes of many nutrients and becomes wasteful/inefficient in their use. So I cycle my vits+mins.

Oh, and don't get your nose bent out of shape about me posting such a long post. As I'm sure you're aware, the majority of it was just cut and paste, so doesn't really count. I didn't sit here for hours studiously typing all that!!

posted June 06, 2000 08:27 PM            

And MS, just giving you a rashion And yes I could tell you did the good old C&P.

Late

posted June 06, 2000 09:35 PM            

Wonder if Artemis has any more info/ideas on this one?

posted June 19, 2000 01:42 AM            

The first concerns babies allegedly developing symptoms of scurvy on 'normal' diets as a result of mother consuming continuous gram quantities of C during the pregnancy. A different text mentions that someone has developed a sort of rebound scurvy after stopping a medicinal quantitiy of C. Neither of these have references.

Sooner or later I imagine I'll get to the bottom of both of these. Meantime...

Should we consider the marginal utility of a vitamin or mineral? I'd rather be spending efforts on topping up scarce nutrients I Know I am short on -provided I knew which are generally lacking in my everyday diet.

posted June 19, 2000 03:27 PM            

Keep plugging away Artemis. In the mean-time I guess we'll just keep taking what we've been taking.

posted June 21, 2000 11:16 PM            

Lobo- I would add enzymes to that list. I think they are very important and often overlooked. Why do you say Ester-C is a scam?

Also, I have a big box with compartments that I fill up at the beginning of the week and bring to work with me. You can buy these at any health food store. I leave the bottles at home and I have them on this sort of lazy susan thing in my pantry that spins around. I have two of them and they are two tiered. Sounds kind of stupid, but I had to find ways to organize all that chaos. It works for me...might work for others.

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