"isn't that sad though? men are allowed and even encouraged to be muscular, strong independant and tough. But women are held to much diffrent standards. petite, demure and needing to be taken care of..."

I've always believed that the whole deal with women and negative body image was a sort of conspiracy against women. (Bear with me for a minute!) By keeping women imprisoned within their poor body image, they are far less likely to fight for larger issues in the world around them.

Witness the evolution of models and actresses to ever-thinner and more unobtainable (or at least substainable) body weights. It seems as women gain more equality, society (and Madison Avenue) raises the bar.

When I was in the full throes of anorexia some 20 years ago, my thoughts were focused on whether I'd allow myself to eat 4 green beans or 5 green beans for lunch, not on world issues. While it pleased me in a perverse way to see that the skinniest Vogue models were "fat" compared to me, I was in no way happy with myself. Just getting through the day was exhausting. The anorexia eventually boomeranged into bulimia. It took many years for me to get a handle on food, but for the most part, the negative body image stayed with me until just recently.

The whole body-building lifestyle has been truly liberating and empowering for me. I am stronger on the inside as well as outside, and I never imagined I could have so much energy and zest for life.

Now when I flip through the pages of a fashion magazine, I no longer see the models' bodies as unobtainable ideals taunting me. They now look sad and pathetic to me - no shoulders, the spidery arms and legs, the blank expressionless faces.

I thinks its a given that a great bod is a must, i mean we come on this board, and do what we do, because, lets be honest, we are all in love with ourselves :-)

I wonder how many fitness/bodybuilding oriented inviduals have great relationships....better yet how about the people on this board....how many of you are actually in a decent relationship? and how many of you just cant hold on to a good relationship because your priorities are all screwed up?........i see too much shit in the fitness industry, too many fakes and heartless self centered individuals....

I agree that on the most part their are alot of self entered people that are into fitness and can't hold on to a relationship because their priority is themselves. I see them at the gym all the time and am acquaintances with many of these types of people.

But there are a few of us that do this for recreation and to maybe get to a point where we don't feel totally disgusted with the way we look and once you start its hard to draw a line where to stop. WHen you set a goal and reach but its not quite what you thought you would look like then you set a new goal and it goes on and on.

I for one started doing this about 7 months ago after dedicating my life to my family and career. I am older now, and am not really looking forward to aging gracefully. I plan to fight it to the end. I have never been heavy, nor skinny, but by no means happy with myself body image and just did not have the time to dedicate to myself. Now that my kids all drive, its just me and my husband.

For the last four years my husband has been nagging me to go to the gym that if I go I could get in great shape. As mentioned I started about 7 months ago @ 118lbs with 25% b/f. I am now at 130lbs with 14% b/f and still striving to get bigger and leaner. I still have fat in all the wrong places, and am no where near where I want to be. On the most part he supports me and we usually workout together. But now he says I am obsessed with my body and that I want to be perfect.

And then men say women are hard to understand. Could it be jealousy or insecurity. I am now getting noticed where before I would just be one of the crowd.

I will stop my rambling now.

BlueCG- My DH was the same way when I begin to lift. I heard ALL the arguments - I don't want to be married to a man, if you stop lifting you'll just get fat...blah blah blah. Well its been a year now - I'm thinner, stronger and he's come around. He's not supportive exactly but he's not bashing it. Its insecurity and jealousy on his part - I have the drive to do this and he doesn't. He's become more conscious of his own body flaws. He likes me with more fat...its just what he prefers. But this is MY body, not his. I think once your hubby sees how happy you are he will come around.

Trinity: Isn't it amazing how our spirit gets stronger along with our body? You should be damn proud of yourself.

Whoever asked about being in a relationship while bb: Training and eating right is a huge part of my life. So is nurturing my spirit, my marriage, taking care of my home. It IS possible to have the balance. Doing one doesn't take away from the other.

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Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit.
Well done is better than well said.

I have a few girlfriend whose boys were at first repulsed by their muscles, and then turned on by them. And then I've had a few whose husbands/boyfriends dumped them because of their fitness.

I think that it had alot to do with control- "you're fat and out of shape and I like you that way because it means that no other penis will look at you and steal you away from me." And I am not out to diss the guys by any means! But I have seen it happen. My poor mother for instance, my dad used to do everything in his power to sabotage her diets- bring home ice cream, take her out to steak houses, etc. But she took it all in stride and finally lost the extra 150 lbs she was carrying.

I am one of the lucky ones whose husband wants me to eat more and lift more- he says he loves it when I am lifting more than the guys, and encourages me to break all of my records.

For all the women whose men believe that they have become too muscular, believe or not, after all these years of marriage, all those hours of busting my ass in the gym, bulking/cutting then doing it all over again - my hubby has finally fessed up that he was never attracted to overly muscular women. OK, I said, but I don't fall into that category. "Yes, you do" he said.

*mouth gaping* I am still trying to come to grips with this.

WE MET IN A FUCKING SWEATY SEEDY SHITHOLE DIVE OF A GYM!! And have been training together for over 12 years! HELLO! WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH THAT?!?!?!?!?!?

I knew that he never thought that women like Vickie Gates were sexually attractive and that he was a big fan of women like Rachel McClish...but damn! ME TOO MUSCULAR?!?!?!

After years of starving/binging/purging/hating what I saw in the mirror no matter what/skinny-fat shit, I found body-building and had dreamed for the last 4 years of competing. Then in 2000, I did. Only got second in two local level shows, but my girls were proud of me and I was proud of myself - heck, after a bit of jealousy (I think hubby had a secret desire to compete and envied the fact that I had the balls to actually do it and he never did.) he was proud too.

This winter I busted my ass and finally grew an upper body (while I was no FC) that said, "This broad is fucking for REAL!" Men started to tell me that I looked like a transvestite!...that I used to have "such a pretty fact" now I just look ugly.

WHAT THE FUCK!? Photographers are flying me across the country or flying across the country to shoot ME! Not bad for a manly-looking woman!

My musculature is still small enough that I could compete as a lightweight but large enough to appear thick and fine even at 20%bf! ie I have a pleasing shape. Yet, now my husband is telling me that my back and chest resemble (only fucking good body parts I have for God's sake) that of a man! HELLO! How pathetic a "man" are we talking about here?!....am I bigger than the average 14year old boy? Yes, but I would hardly call a 14year old boy a man.

True, in order to keep working as a commercial model I can not let my upper body get any bigger. John and Josephina Q Public probably do not want to buy Pampers from a woman whes pecs are ripped to shreds. But for God's sake!....."Ugly in the face?!" Hello, I'm at 20%bf for goodness sake!...NOT 5% totally dehydrated and painted dark brown!

These comments just go to show how low a man will stoop to try to strip a woman of her feminity in a feeble attempt to salvage any shred of manhood (IE his most prized possession - HIS DICK) he has left when a woman has an arm circumference that even BEGINS to approach that of his (akin to a man calling another man a faggot if he wants to try to put that other guy down).

You know what I say - FUCK THEM! And for those of you who are wondering how I responded to the guys who said that I looked like a transvestite, I said with a smile, "Yea, and my DICK is bigger than your too!"

My hubby does support me and he has my best interests at heart and he is entitled to his opinion, but he also realizes that while he can voice that opinion that it does not automatically mean that I will do WHAT HE wants....just as I don't expect him to do what I want, just because it is what pleases me. Marriage is a give and take and there must be a balance. Ultimately though we must be true to ourselves. And when are true to ourselves then we can fully love another.

Ripped - I don't agree with your assessment that 12%bf should be an ideal that all women should strive for. It all depends on what that individual wants. If a woman has a solid muscular foundation then she will be equally beautiful at 20% or anywhere in between. I believe that aspiring to be shredded year-round is unhealthy at worst and mind-numbing to say the least. This is also almost impossible to do without the use of A/S (unless you NEVER want to get any bigger and you have GOBS of mass to spare, because your body will eat the mass you have) which is not an option for everyone. There are those who are gifted and have a fast metabolism and have to actually consume A LOT of calories in order to maintain a higher bf%, but for the most part I am sure the average female does not fall into this category.

I beleive that we should all aspire to what is BEST FOR US. We should all try to be stronger. The cosmetics are just an added benefit. If one is happy at 14%bf then that is what is best for them. If it is higher (as long as one does not get too carried away) than that is fine too!

Believe it or not, at 5' 3 1/2" ideally (commercially) my agent and majority of clients want me to be at about 15 - 17%bf. For more hard-core type things (more vascularity and striations) because of my age if I get too lean I look tired and frugly 12%bf is ideal. At 12% because my upper body cuts up so quickly some have guessed my bf to be as low at 8%! (I wish) Obviously, in order to compete bf% have to be much lower.

So now, which would you aspire to? Paycheck at 15 - 17% or a trophy at 8%?

I'll never compete on anything other than a local level. I am too old, my body has been through too much and I am, quite frankly, not willing to do what is necessary to be competitive at higher levels. Even if I were to compete, it would cost me money, (suits and all other aspects of contest prep not to mention the bookings that I would have to give up because I would be too lean to satisfy the client) and I might walk away with a trophy after many, many years and many attempts?!....now FC is a different story altogether! I can't wait to someday say, "Yea, I trained w/her and I knew her when!"

Remember, ultimately we must be true to ourselves.

Luv2workout - my husband does the same thing. Whenever we see someone that we haven't seen in a while, he asks me to show off my muscles and starts bragging about how much I can lift. He is alot more pasionate since my muscles have started showing. So what gives DO you or DON'T you like the muscles? Mixed signals.

He's been lifting for years and has lost that push, so he does for doing. No enthusiasm, or excitement about going to the gym or pushing those weights around. He has always been more fit than I, but things are changing and I think that he's kind of threaten by it.

Thanks ladies (and gents) for sharing your experiences. It certainly helps me. Reminds me that this is up to ME and no one else.

Hey Bmom - yeah you look like a man about as much as I look like Pamela Anderson Lee.

Personally i think FitnessChick(FC) who comes on this board has what i consider the almost ideal physique. I personally dont find that gross, but i have not seen her face, but i have this hunch she looks good :-)

Ther are a few pros that have managed (or lucky enough) to maintian that feminine face, so to say, my favorite being Valentina Chepiga (though she has a little masculinaztion/virilization notcieable), so for a Pro Bodybuider she looks great. Also my ALL TIME favorite ( and i miss her :-) ) is Denise Rutkowski, i have yet too see another female BB who had the total package like she did.

Anyway, i do not in anyway get "intimidated" by any of these women, heck no lol, I, just like a lot of men who share my opinion, dislike what is happening to their faces and hence feminitity. I find it amusing that a male would feel intimidated, thats pretty sad.

Like i said this i jusy my opinion, and im sure theres MANY others who share it and some who dont, so dont flame me for stating my opinion. ( not you bikinimom but anyone)

Or does 'Apollonian Ideal' refer to the measurements most likely to come from a piece of classical Greek statuary?

If so, let me assure everyone that this does not seem to be such a marketable look today. Yours truly has a 'classical' shape that has been out-of-style for at least a century or more (tall and heavy...). I look rather 'before', more like the pen-and-ink images on the top of some stock-certificates, or like the green Lady Liberty. Some people are okay with this, others get nasty. I don't think anyone can 'win' and please everyone else all the time. Don't bother wasting time on that. Simply try your best to be fit (and healty) in your own way as best as you are able.

No, not really. I think I understand some of what you're driving at (I'm a bioengineer...).

Take fat cell number. A formerly fat person might have more fat cells that are presently emptier than a person of equivalent size and %b.f. who has not seen the need to diet. The formerly fatter person will still be at a relative disadvantage? Insurance won't pay for any corrective liposculpture that could get rid of the extra cells. Bummer.

Shall we start an (elitist) foundation for this purpose of cosmetic tissue engineering?

DaVinci was also an artist along with being an engineer. This is (was) also a rare combination of talents.There are many different human 'parts' that will work well by themselves but not integrate together so nicely. It's not just a matter of healing damaged or sub-optimal parts. We also need to choose the 'right' parts (or attributes) to match together... And not everything can nor should be 'off-the-rack'.

Like with transmission gears or gun parts. Two undersized gears might be okay, but using undersized gun parts could make for a dangerous rifle with too much headspace.

Someone with a big skull and long cranial base would do well with a long, wide maxilla, matched to a long, wide mandible. This would be a pleasing combination of workable parts, and very little orthodontics will ever be required. Needless to say this would be best for larger people.

A smaller skull with shorter cranial base works best with a smaller maxilla and mandible. However there could be crowding, and the wisdoms will need to go. But aside from this, the finished proportions wouldn't be so bad. Another fine outcome.

But if someone ends up with a mixture of these characteristics we get into trouble even though each part alone is within a statistical 'normal'. And if something is 'normal' then health insurance won't pay. <Ouch>

One thing that would bother me, and that is to rob the world of it's diversity by making people the same: ...leveling us off at standard Jones' height, with standard Smith's weight etc.... <yuck, boring> I Do like the idea of 'tweaking' oneself to one's best aesthetic and functional advantage. This shouldn't just involve visiting the doc's and asking for the (often standardized) 'Hollywood' treatment. Tayloring is best. We should not bother trying to taylor ourselves to somebody else's expectations.

Did anyone else see the January 1999 issue of National Geographic magazine?

I was referring to the Jan. '99 article regarding the elusive quantification of beauty. There is a portrait of the Marquardt face printed there. Plastic surgeon Stephen Marquardt produced this most excellent picture of what an ideal female face could look like. There are some relatively simple 'rules' to use in order to come up with these sorts of idealized facial portraits. But these are Not the faces we most often see on a day-to-day basis...

So yes, I would say there are rules to follow for figure drawing just as there are for perspective, or reflecting shadows. But it would be tricky to apply these optimals to a any real person. Here the most important item is to have harmony between the relative bodyparts whatever they may be. Plastic-surgery texts and figure drawing books often do discuss this idea of harmony, though most cosmetic surgery texts that I've ever seen so far typically shy away from being overly specific (ie. they don't put numbers down except in dentistry or facial cosmetic surg.)

I would readily agree that defining 'normal' is tricky. Even if we did define normal, the results may not be of much value anyway. From point of view of the face, these sorts of investigations has already been done. In particular, the Burlington (ON, Canada) study comes to mind. The researchers collected children's facial measurements at intervals as they grew up. 'Normal' per se doesn't correlate very well with 'ideal' seeing as about 90% of Americans have some sort of wisdom teeth crowding. 'Normal' might be a good place to start from a health point of view, (leads to normal lifespan and normal health) but here as Elitists I'd hope we'd be aiming to do better than that... ie. why struggle so hard just to be merely 'normal'? -What a complete waste of time & energy!

The 'idealized' bodily measurements are also around. I saw a set of formulae at one point that came for free on a bodyfat caliper catalogue. Honestly I can't remember what I did with it but I do recall it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. The authors seemed to have anorexia on their minds when they came up with their numbers.

<...plug into and focus on individually change the way we view ourselves and change the american mindset from one of striving to be other (i.e someone else's body type)to striving to be self-best? >

I'd wish for this sort of social change too. At heart, I'd place at least some of the blame on our mass-production oriented environment that took root sometime during the '20's -the first time where just about all things could off an assembly line. (yeah I know we had mass production earlier, I mean that it took until the '20's for this aspect of modern life to hit some sort of critical mass) Including off-the-rack clothes. And instead of tayloring clothes to us, a great many of us instead became slaves to the clothes. ie. change the body to fit the standard clothes rather than tayloring both body and clothes. The first calorie-counting charts came out about then as well, though I don't now remember the name of the gal responsible for getting that all started. And Metropolitan Life came out with those confounded height-weight tables. And that sillyness based on small/medium/large frame (whatever that was supposed to mean...). And back then, (as is still happening now...) the 'high-fashion' items (from overseas) came only in certain sizes, leading to pressures to conform.

Enough trivia. Again, why settle for 'normal'? Feel free to set your own standards as to what leads you to feel your best. I'd like to think one would probably look and feel great at the same time, even if it might not end up being a 'winning' look for contemporary modeling. And so what if it isn't ?!