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 Women's Discussion Board
 Creatine info for wonderwoman
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| Author | Topic: Creatine info for wonderwoman | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 36 |
Wonderwoman, If you're interested here is some of the biochemistry behind creatine. Basically, the muscle is a mechanism for converting the chemical free energy released in ATP hydrolysis into mechanical work. Creatine is an important constituent of muscle. It is phosphorylated by creatine kinase and in resting muscle it is stored as creatine phosphate. This phosphate group in creatine phosphate has a high energy potential and can be used to phosphorylate Adenosine di-phosphate (ADP) to Adenosine tri-phospate (ATP). Because of its three high energy phosphate bonds ATP is the main source of energy in our bodies. When these phosphate bonds are broken, energy is released and used by skeletal muscle. This is why ATP is the end product of all our energy generating pathways (glycolosis, the krebs cycle, and the electron transport chain). Thus, creatine phosphate is an important energy storage form in skeletal muscle because it gives you the immediate capability to create more ATP for muscle contraction. I'm not really sure why creatine can result in water retention. I've spoken with several biochemists and they all seem to agree that it has something to do with the hydrophilic (water loving) COO- side chain. This side chain pulls water along with it everywhere it goes. This water helps volumize your muscle sarcomere and this results in greater strength. Sounds like a trade off most of us here can accept unless we're cutting up for a show. Good luck with your strength cycle, if memory serves me right you're already one of the strongest on here. Galen ------------------     | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 173 |
No shit it pulls water into the muscles!! Last night I was doing a leg workout after having been "off" of creatine for about a month and Holy Shit!! My quads felt so damned tight I couldn't believe it! It was awesome! I wasn't sure the creatine was doing anything for me so I thought I'd lay off for a while. I guess it was working quite well!!! And thanks for the informative post. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 953 |
Actually, the water-retaining properties of creatine are a bonus when cutting for a show. When taken in large quantities during the last day or 2 before a show, creatine greatly assists dehydration by pulling water out of the blood and intrastitial spaces and into the muscle. This helps you to get drier overall but fuller muscles, especially during the carb-up. Of course, if you're trying to make a weight class for a strength competition, you have to weigh up the benefits of increased strength against the extra weight you'll be carrying. There is also evidence that the extra intermuscular water is an important part of creatine's contribution to strength increases. A fully hydrated muscle is stronger and in a more anabolic state than a less hydrated muscle. All in all, enjoy the extra fluid you're holding! It's all good. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 186 |
Thanks to all for the informative and inspiring info. Here's a question for y'all, if we all agree that creatine's water retentive capacity is what makes it so awesome for strength gains, can it also be assumed that once the water is gone, so is the strength? Or better yet, how can we maintain those strength gains post cycle. Are we assuming that we will gain significant muscular capacity to perform at a higher level even after we dry out? My experience with juice is that gains are somewhat "permenant" depending upon your training, diet, etc.due to actual muscular hypertrophy (larger muscle fibers mostly attributed to enhanced protein synthesis and recovery). Is creatine only effective while in use? Ain't this fun y'all. WW | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 953 |
We're moving into theoretical limbo on this one. One of the potential long term benefits of creatine overhydration is expansion of the myocytes which MAY lead to increased satellite cells and POSSIBLY strecting of the muscle fascia. What this might mean in lay terms is creatine (like AS but through a different mechanism) could lead to more muscle cells and larger bags to accomodate the muscle growth. You will not keep all your strength gains from creatine purely because you won't have as high a potential to produce ATP. But some of the strength gain will be real and permanent. No one to my knowlegde has rigorously tested these theories yet. But in the real world, if your bench goes up 20 lbs with creatine supplementation, it is not likely to go all the way back down 20 lbs when you stop. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 186 |
Good answer. Exactly what I wanted to know. Okay here's another. In combination with AAS do we increase the amount of tissue we build due to enhanced hydration+enhanced protein synthesis/recovery, thereby creating more muscle than either juice or creatine alone? In theory it sounds good. Anyone got any practical experience? My bulking phase rapidly approaches. WW | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 437 |
for whatever it's worth, I'm currently on a building cycle that includes creatine (Twin labs creatine fuel). I have done creatine before (before AS use) and had problems with it. I was taking the recommended doseages and found that it would cut down my workout time....my forearms would get so pumped that I literally couldn't move. Now, I'm only doing a single dose post workout and haven't had the same negative effects possibily due to the metabolic changes that come with the AS. Everything is theoretical beyond that. I did an earlier cycle without Creatine on anavar which only lasted about 7 weeks and maintained very little of some amazing strength gains: no substantial increase in size, although did improve cuts. This time I'm on Deca; have had some wonderful increases in size and strength, but am still on. What contributions are due to Creatine and what comes from the deca is anybody's guess. One thing that I will say for sure is that my body doesn't partition water properly (ie, I can frequently hold water subcutaneously and be dehydrated at the same time ...seeing stars, ringing ears, cramping muscles, etc. but the index on a pinch test goes down with repeated pinching). The creatine does help by pulling water into the muscles whereby relieving some of the cramping. I can push more weight when the muscle isn't cramping....which I would assume affords greater muscle growth. That's kind of an extreme example, but it's the only "real" data that I can offer. ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 173 |
Trust me, your wonderful increases in size and strength are not from the creatine. If that were the case, I wouldn't be so very envious of all of you who are brave enough to be "on". If awesome size and strength came from just creatine, I'd be bigger than my husband. But I'm not.  | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 437 |
True. I had no intention of implying that the creatine was solely responsible for my gains. My agenda in providing data on both cycles is for no other reason than to establish credibility (or lack thereof) for each of the individual variables. I will say that the creatine does appear to assist with the increased stress placed on the muscles while on. ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 173 |
Check. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 186 |
Any one else? Theory or practicum IG, Lobo, MS, heeeeellloooo out there... WW | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 953 |
I don't know (Artemis, F1, somebody else??) if creatine by itself will lead to increased permanent muscle mass. My personal experience is that it does to a VERY SMALL degree. But it is unrealistic to compare it to AAS use. If I were using AAS on a bulking cycle I would also be using creatine, purely because it may help, and probably won't hurt your gains. But really, if your using AAS and training and eating properly, you will make good gains with or without creatine. The only caveat is that you MUST have the discipline to drink lots and lots of water if you use AAS/creatine. And of course you must learn to love that water -bloat look and feel. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 86 |
I don't think anything aside from gene therapy (implanting IGF-I cDNA directly into the muscle with an adeno-associated virus) will cause permanent gains per se. However, adding new muscle fibers (hyperplasia) that is still a theory in humans, could result in a permanent increase muscle mass. Interestingly, the East Germans back in the "state sponsored doping days" found that doping their female power athletes with AAS during training phases resulted in permanent gains. This probably had to do with hyperplasia but we'll never be able to study this contention. Regarding water retention. Sure water retention will increase strength because of the mechanical advantage regardless of whether it comes from test, A-50 or creatine, and of course, you lose most of it when you come off any of these substances. However, the increase in strength also leads to increased mechanical loading (lifting heavier weight). It is the mechanical load that is the critical stimulus for eliciting skeletal muscle growth (protein synthesis). Thus, anything that allows for an increase mechanical loading (weight lifted) is a good thing and will act synergistically with the anabolic agent so combine the two. Creatine has been shown to increase satellite cell number in rat skeletal muscle. It is unknown if this happens in humans. Regardless, satellite cell proliferation is absolutely necessary for muscle hypertrophy and/or hyperplasia. The number of myonuclei present governs the size of a fiber. If new myonuclei cannot form, the muscle fiber cannot grow. Myonuclei come from satellite cells and new fibers come from satellite cells. Bottom line, no satellite cells, no growth. Anabolic steroids have been shown to enhance satellite cell proliferation in addition to increasing protein synthesis. Conclusion: I'd always consume the creatine with any AAS cycle and continue the creatine thereafter. In fact, I don't see any reason to stop taking creatine. If it is limiting your workouts because of the pump, you need some myofascial massage (Rolfing). JayeLynn: Are you taking in enough sodium in your diet? F1 | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 437 |
F1 - not sure about the sodium. I'm not real good at gaging that one given how my body handles water in the first place. My first attack on the cramping is the creatine, but after a few months of heavy training I will reach a point where I can't flex without going into a spasm. I fall back on tonic water when things get out of hand, mostly for the quinine. Before the FDA took it off the shelves, I had it in pill form and it worked great. The tonic has less quinine (drink a liter or so), but also contains sodium....so your guess is as good as mine. All I know is that it works. I've tried to get better information on Quinine from the web, but found what little there was to be useless. I have not idea if/how much sodium might have been in the quinine pills. I need a good Chinese herbologist ------------------ | ||
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Moderator 
Posts: 1640 |
Very good thread here folks. I like using creatine myself. Cramping. One word: MINERALS. Cramping is the first, A number one side for not getting the right ratio of minerals (water too of course). We can go round and round on the how�s and why�s. But the bottom line for me, as well as many others I've convinced over the net and in the gym, is to get your mineral supplementation in order. It's is so easy, very cheap, and I've beat this dead horse 1000 times already. ------------------ Lobo | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 86 |
Agree totally with Warlobo. Mineral balance is critical in addition to plenty of water, BUT without adequate sodium intake, total body dehydration can occur. Water alone will kill your thirst because water intake dilutes the blood, but in order to maintain a thirst drive and get water out of the blood and into the extravascular compartments, you need sodium. Water follows sodium. I often see bodybuilders running around with their distilled water day in and day out, esp in the summer and they wonder why they are cramping, dizzy and easily fatigued. No sodium. With that said, it is important to maintain balance of other minerals as well including potassium, calcium and magnesium. At the very least, one should be getting the RDA of these minerals. If you sweat, sodium chloride is your friend. F1 | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 186 |
I agree Lobo, EXCELLENT thread folks. I'm sold, AAS+creatine. Thinking about the H2O retention thang though. Could I possibly be better off going with a milder suppliment than EQ? Perhaps primo? Or a maybe a month of each with a month break between. The possiblilites are endless. Any suggestions?? WW |
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posted November 08, 2000 12:59 PM