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 How to get the absolute most out of prohormones!
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| Author | Topic: How to get the absolute most out of prohormones! |
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Ed O. Puss-Rexx Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 8) |
posted March 07, 2000 02:11 PM
  
Think I may have figured out how to get the absolute most out of prohormones. Does anyone agree, disagree, or have anything to add? 1. Take really high doses of each prohormone in your stack (an example: at least 300 MG each of 4-AD and 19-NOR-4) at least 3 times daily . . . or don't even bother to take them at all. 2. Add tribulus (or another proandrogen), ipriflavone (or another antiestrogen), chrysin (or an other antiaromatase), and DHEA (or another anticortisol) to whatever stack you're doing. 3. Keep blood glucose and circulating insulin really low -- and glucagon high -- while taking them. For most people, this will mean eating high-fat/moderate-protein/low-carb . . . all the time or as part of a cyclical ketogenic diet. If it turns out that anyone is interested in this thread, I'll post why I think these 3 points are key. [This message has been edited by Ed O. Puss-Rexx (edited March 07, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Ed O. Puss-Rexx (edited March 07, 2000).] IP: Logged |
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nariclas Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 17) |
posted March 07, 2000 02:18 PM
i dont understand why do you need insulin low? ... Have you tried it man?? SOUNDS INTERESTING LET ME KNOW IF YOU ARE TRYING IT. IP: Logged |
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grosso Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 102) |
posted March 08, 2000 08:05 AM
Bump for "Brendon" ... and for you "Ed O. Puss-Rexx" ... just go in http://www.ast-ss.com/ .... very good site. Here is for example a Q&A from that site : Q. I see some companies have Chrysin in the products. Should I take Chrysin with 19-Nor 3-Andro? A. No! Absolutely not. And for several reasons. 1.19-Nor 3-Andro aromatizes, but what little it does aromatize is absolutely necessary for optimum androgen receptor signaling. If you attempt to stop the amortization then you will reduce, by as much as 30 times , testosterone�s ability to "hook on" to the androgen receptor where it gives its anabolic instructions. This is an area that, and I don�t mind saying this, the dumb-asses in the supplement industry absolutely don�t have a clue as to what they are talking about. 2.Chrysin inhibits the 3 beta- and 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme activity. These are the very enzymes that are needed to convert pro-hormones into testosterone. Inhibit these enzymes and you stop not only the conversion of exogenous (supplied from outside the body) androstenedione from converting into testosterone, but also endogenous (supplied from within the body) hormone conversion as well. To put it bluntly, Chrysin will turn you into a female. Not what I want and certainly not good if you want to build muscle. IP: Logged |
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Ed O. Puss-Rexx Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 8) |
posted March 08, 2000 12:28 PM
My response to the previous post is that I disagree with it. As for the first claim on AST's site (at least as quoted by Grosso): Prohormones don't require an aromatic (Is that the proper word for it?) hormonal milieu to convert to testosterone. They do, however, require an environment of already low catabolism (which is where DHEA and maybe even glutamine can come in) and high anabolism (which is where eating, training, and sleeping should come in). Good enzymatic activity in the gut is also key, and that means zinc, magnesium, lecithin, etc. I also think my previously mentioned low-insulin/high-glucagon idea may fit here because that axis would keep HGH and IGF-1 high, signaling one's body to preserve lean mass. The preferential hormonal sequence - and environment - then, would be androgenic, not estrogenic. (Also, it seems to me that the most successful prohormone users are former steroid users and those on traditional or cyclical ketogenic diets. Am I wrong? Let me know!) As for AST's/Grosso's second point, it seems somewhat more troubling, but in application, chrysin - even at its absolute worst - simply doesn't seem to negatively affect testosterone synthesis. I'd like to know if Grosso himself became feminized while taking chyrsin. The point I'm trying to make is that prohormones MAY be more difficult to administer than anabolic/androgenic steroids because they MAY have more serious side effects so they MAY require clever stacking AND a bunch of lifestyle changes (which pill-poppers don't want to hear) BUT they're available over the counter while steroids aren't, SO let's use them to build muscle and keep our balls bouncing at the same time. By the way, I've used myself as a (muscular) human lab rat. The results were so satisfactory that I figured something would go wrong if I kept doing it ... so I stopped. I started this thread because I want to start up again, but this time with information and feedback - not just intuition - to back me up. [This message has been edited by Ed O. Puss-Rexx (edited March 08, 2000).] IP: Logged |
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qui Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 19) |
posted March 08, 2000 04:41 PM
How about the ultimate proof of your theory? By that I mean, have you actually had blood drawn, once every 30-days for at least 90-days. That would give you a 3-month interval with Total/Free Testosterone, Estradiol, SHBG and LH serum readings. How about it? quote: IP: Logged |
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grosso Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 102) |
posted March 09, 2000 05:41 AM
In November/December I have used Andro from Twinlab , 200 mg per day. Now I am using Nortesten since more than 1 month. I did'n have any problem of gyno. And in May I will start 2 months cycle of 19Nor3Andro by Ast. Without taking chrisyn of course. Because I am not taking a very high dosage. A caps of Ast product contains 100 mg Andro , 100 mg 19 norandro , 100 mg 5 androdiol. I will take 1 caps in the morning and one before trainig. IP: Logged |
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Ed O. Puss-Rexx Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 8) |
posted March 09, 2000 03:14 PM
It's probably time for me to let on that, for me, this isn't just about bodybuilding. Although I'm only 26, my testosterone is naturally very low, and it's almost impossible to find doctors willing to write androgen-replacement-therapy prescriptions strong enough for someone my age. (Even the docs who do it are used to dealing with middle-aged men.) So, yes, I have used Depo-Testosterone, but not a lot and not for very long. I got fed up with the medical establishment, decided to take the "andro" route, and did my homework. So I followed all of my own advice (see above), with blood work before, during, and after to show for it (every 30 days over the course of my 90-day trial). My free testosterone went up (from under 100 to over 750) while my cortisol went down. Estrogen and SHBG went up, then back down, to normal. Of course, I lost tons of fat and gained lots of muscle. Looked great, felt great. But as I said before, it seemed too good to be true, so I stopped. Basically, I posted because (A) I want feedback and (B) I think that a strategy that worked for someone as messed up as I was would get even more amazing results for a healthy bodybuilder. IP: Logged |
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Ed O. Puss-Rexx Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 8) |
posted March 09, 2000 03:18 PM
Almost forgot: I want Grosso to know that your dosages, which are considered low, seem to cause the least conversion to T but the most to E. Check all of the recent andro studies in JAMA ... and read between the lines! Buy, hey, if what you're doing is working, keep it up! IP: Logged |
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