Ok everyone knows about the window of opportunity, the 2 hours after training when 60% of your recovery can be gained or lost depending on what you eat. But this recover process keeps going for 6 hours after you have trained. If you are like me and train after work then you may be taking your evening meal at between 7:30 - 8pm and by 10pm your in bed to try and get those vital 8 hours sleep.

Ok that means that you have only got 2 - 3 hours to eat as much as you can to aid your recovery, for when you are asleep your metabolism slows down and so does your digestion.

If you don't eat enough for total recovery in those 3 hours before you go to sleep then while you are a sleep your body is going to look else where for the nutrients it requires to recover. i.e. carbs and protein. Where does it find them? Your muscles. This is why if you train in the evening it is a good idea to wake up at 12am or 1am and eat something.

ok where do the pro bodybuilders come into this? Well Most pro bodybuilders I have talked to train between 11 am and 2 pm. This gives them the full 6 hours to carb up and eat enough food to recover. This I believe is one of the reasons why they can eat 6 - 8 meals per day and not get really fat. I also believe this is why most of them can eat a protein only meal before they go to bed and not loose muscle mass as they sleep. I've tried doing just that, eat a protein only meal at 10 pm as advised by the pro's and all I did was loose muscle mass.

Firstly - The protein source I prefare is whey although the pro's I talked to told me to eat fish for my last meal, I just don't like eating fish before going to bed.

Secondly - Yes I was gaining fat from eating 6 times per day.

One of the guy's who works in my local supplement shop told me that "Whey protein enters your system so fast that your body converts a certain percentage of the protein in Whey to glucose". Therefore he told me you should only use whey straight after your work out. I don't know if that is true or not, but if it is, every time you take whey you will get an insulin surge from the protein that is converted to glucose. So taking whey at various intervals throughout the day may not be such a good idea after all.

In a recent issue of Flex magazine a personal trainer said they prefared to take Casein protein powder before going to bed rather than whey as Casein is released more slowly and evenly into our bodies.

One thing I did notice when I replaced some of my Whey protein meals with chicken breasts was a definate increase in muscle mass. However I also noticed my waist measurement increased more rapidly while eating chicken breasts, probably due to the fact that chicken is a lot harder to digest than whey.

This is one of reasons why I just can't understand how some of the pro's claim to eat 10 or more chicken breasts per day and yet they can still maintain a narrow waist.

Calories make you fat...period. Try to get more of your calories from protein and less carbs and fat. Maybe your just taking in too many calories verse how much you expend.

Whether you get fat or not, depends on WHAT you eat and HOW MUCH you eat - not how many times.

I believe that I am eating too much protein, I take 60 grams of whey 4 sometimes 5 times per day, thats approx 200 to 250 grams of protein from whey alone, before you include all the chicken breasts/tuna/steak or what ever else I feel like eating. Considering I'm only 190 lb's at 5 feet 9 inches I think I am OD'ing on protein.

Anyway thanks DA BOOM for your advice on the cottage cheese, I will give that a go and probably drop some of my whey shakes.

akbar you are right about the pro's, they do use huge amounts of steroids/Growth hormone. This is one of the reasons their bodies can utilize far more protein than any normal person. However I have spoken to some pro's who do not eat huge amounts of food let alone protein. One pro I spoke to told me that they only eat 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight.

I think some of the pro's and people on this board have just gone protein mad. They think that by eating protien till it comes out their ears that it will some how make them grow even more muscles.

I am probably going to get flamed for this but I don't care. If you have ever read articles in the bodybuilding magazines telling you what it takes to get massive or talked to a pro about it, the first thing they say is usually Genetics followed by Food followed by Hard training. Personaly I don't believe that, it should go something like this : joint first genetics and drugs for wothout the drugs it doesn't matter how bloody good your genetics are you can not, I repeat can not get the physique of a pro bodybuilder without using a ton of drugs. Joint second would be training and food.

No matter what anyone tells you about been able to get really big naturally it's lies, spread by the supplement companies and pro's who are under contract and being payed lots of money by these supplement companies to lie on their behalf. I'm sure some of the pro's don't like having to lie, but hay it's a lot easier to say that your body is down to good genetics and hard work than injecting yourself with about 3 or 4 different drugs every day.

DA BOMB, this is incorrect. Certain amino's found in protein can be converted to glucose, alanine and glutamine are the most common. These aminos are termed "glucogenic" due to this ability.

"Protein is only broken down by the liver and glucose is released during ketosis, time when you are not taking in the neccessary glucose to maintain normal glucose blood sugar levels to fuel your body."

That may be so, but then why are all the supplement companies now saying that by combining protein and carbs together in a post exercise recovery drink you get a greater insulin spike than if you took carbs alone.

I'm not saying that directly after you take a whey supplement your body gets an insulin spike, as your liver has to first process the protein and convert it to glucose. What I am saying is that by talking tons of protein your body becomes a lot more efficient at converting it to other forms of energy i.e. glucose or in the worst case ammonia which is very toxic. Your body then has to get rid of this ammonia (via urea or sweet) as best as it can before it poisons your system.
I know from experience that when I am taking too much protein my sweet actually smells of ammonia. Now that can not be healthy in anyones books.

DA BOMB, again this is incorrect. Protein is not absorbed through the intestinal wall whole. It is digested into free aminos and small peptides. These constituents of the original proteins are transported to the liver where they are used for various functions, and some aminos can be converted into glucose...how much occurs during normal metabolism, I do not know.

Most of a pro's money today goes on Growth Hormone. Have you ever seen what the pro's really eat on the offseason?

In an issue of Flex one of Ron's off season meals was reported as being fried fish and french fries (chips). Now steroids are good at keeping you resonable trim when you are eating a lot of clean food. However when you start eating junk food like that, you will become a fat b*****d quicker than you can say Jack Robinson, steroids or no steroids.

And it is not just the guy's who are doing it, I remember reading in Flex that Kim was reported to have said the only way she could put on weigth in the offseason was by eating cheese cake and pizza. She felt it was ok as long as she got enough clean protein.

The so called Natural bodybuilders really annoy the hell out of me. Everyone knows that Growth Hormone can not be tested for and I would hazard a guess and say that every Natural bodybuilder that competes is using Growth. Look at all the New so called all Natural magazines that sprung up over night. It's the same old s**t over again "you can look like this if you eat right, train hard and take mega lean super dooper thermo formula, without having to use drugs. - Bollocks.

It's always been about drugs.

You don't have to take my word for it either. When Robert Kennedy of Musclemag was asked what he thought of the new so called all natural magazines he said that 80 or 90% of the guy's in them magazines are using steroids they just are not using the mega doses that the pro's are taking.

A lot of people have this thing against Greg Zulak, they say he is a sell out, but even if he is, he did tell it like it was. I rememeber in one article he wrote that no one can train like the pro's and possible hope to gain any muscle. He said the pro's are taking huge amounts of steroids, which allows them to recover from training 6 days per week on double split routines.

He also said that bodybuilders have got this amazing ability to look you straight in the eye and lie to you. He said that even if a bodybuilder admits to using steroid they will usually lie about the quantities they are using, double or even triple the quatities that they tell you.

Ok maybe I was a bit too harsh in my statement that all the naturals take GH. There are some true naturals that compete, but you never hear about them, because they always come last in most competitions.

Prime example of the double standards that have been going around for years - The Olympics. Before the last Olympics a British IOC Doctor made a statement saying that over 90% of all atheletes in the Olympics will be using banned substances. That very year the British Olympics team had their worst ever Olympics in decades. Why? Because they were being watched very closely. I have nothing against the British Olympics team far from it, I think for a long time the British Olympics team stood back and watched as the Russian, East Germany AND American Olympics teams used every banned substance they could come up with, just to make sure that the other side did not win.

Listen to reason, if most of the Olympic records where set by atheletes on steroids and other drugs then how in the hell are they still breaking these records today. And don't give me that crap about better training techniques and diet. The East Germans where way ahead of their time in training techniques and diet, but they still pumped their atheletes full of drugs.

Yes genetics plays a part, but only in how well you react to a given amount of steroids or other drugs. Some people can use small amounts of steroids and get amazing result while others can take ton's and get very little results.

But for anyone to say that you can get to 230 or 250 lb's with 3 % bodyfat at an average hight of say 5 feet 9 inches tall naturally, I am afraid they are talking through their arse.

How you train is just as important. People who say things like if you are eating enough then you can not over train, don't have a clue what they are talking about or else they are on drugs. As Greg Zulak put it "it is physiologically impossible to train like the pro's"

What did he mean by that? Well the longer you train and the more intense you train the higher your cortisol levels go. And if you are training intensely every day as a natural your cortisol levels are going to be sky high all the time. This means that you will end up loosing muscle rather than gaining muscle. Worse still you will get fat, because testosterone levels will be surpressed and estrogen will become the dominant hormone.

This is why I believe that a natural bodybuilder should only train every other day or even just twice per week.

I got so frustrated training 5 sometimes 6 days per week and going no where that I decided to start using steroids. But even then I made my best gains on the steroids when I was only training 3 days per week.

The bodybuilders in the 50 & 60's who where basically all using small amounts of steroids trained 3 days per week. In the late 70's and 80's bodybuilders started training more often, 5 or 6 days per week on double split routines. How could they do this and recover? Simple because they increased their steroid consumption way above what was been used in the 50's & 60's.

Eating 5 or 6 times per day and trying to train like a pro is a recipe for disaster, because it will only make you fatter.

Have you every seen someone who has had to get cortisone injections? What happens to them?
They blow up like a balloon and get really fat. This is what happens when you over train and try to eat lots to compensate for your training.

I'm confused totally about the direction of this thread. It's not about eating 6-8 times per day at all, but about the total training, drug use and eating habits of pro bodybuilders. By your own admission you make better gains training 3 times per week, on or off steroids, so I have no idea what you point is now. You say pros can train more often and eat more often without getting fat and overtraining because of the gear they take. Then you say that you don't make good gains training and eating that way even when you take gear. You also outright accuse any 'natural' who makes good progress training and eating this way as a liar and cheat. I give up on this post because you obviously have a mind-set which can't be changed, namely

Everyone is lying to you when they give you advice about nutrition that involves eating lots of meals per day, it's all a conspiracy to make you fat, and

All successful naturals secretly use gear, and

You'll never gain muscle if you train more than 3 days per week.

Is this your basic belief?

This is why I have reconsidered my original stance which was, eating 6-8 times per day makes you fat. I now believe that this only happens when you over train.

I'm sorry MS to bust your bubble, but why the hell do you think that the major women's fitness organizations are thinking of bringing in actual drug tests?

Because most fitness women today are damn near as big as Cory Everson was when she was competing in bodybuilding. However I don't believe this transformation in the physiques of the fitness women is due to steroids.

Doctor Michael Colgan said that by the late 1990's Growth Hormone will be the most abused drug in bodybuilding. Why? Because when you diet and use Growth Hormone you don't loose muscle. Steroids are nowhere near as effective at doing this as Growth hormone and that is one of the reasons why the bodybuilders and fitness women today are so much bigger than they where 10 years ago.

So let me refresh things then. If anyone wants to train 5 to 6 days per week and eat 6-8 times per day then they will have to use some form of Hormone/drug, whether that is steroids, Growth Hormone, Thyroid, clenbuterol or ephadrine.

I did not assume anything about you, I have not seen any pictures of you or talked to you in person. However some pro's have tried to tell me before that they where not on anything and have asked me how the hell I could possible tell that they where taking anything. Ok you can't really tell from a persons body unless they have got spots on their back, shoulders and upper arms, but even then not all people who take gear are effected by acne, I'm not.

The one way you can make a bloody good judgement of whether someone is using is in their face. The square jaw and jutting out chin are two distinct give aways, also in some peoples eyes you can see that there is something not right. That super vascular look, that is definitely not a result of natural training. The best drug for bringing out the veins is Winstrol. In fact I remember reading once that they where going to use a bodybuilders bodyfat measure as a method of determining whether they where on drugs or not, due to the fact that is impossible to get to extremely low levels of bodyfat and maintain large amounts of muscle mass naturaly.

As Ian Harrison put it on another web site, when American bodybuilders used to come over to give seminars in England and the steroid question came up and of course the bodybuilder denied using them, half the audience would just get up and walk out.

People today are not as gullible as they where 10 or 20 years ago.

I have some sympathy for the pro's as their contracts mean they have to tell everyone that they are clean or else they will loose their contract.

I train 6 days a week, But only do 3 exercises, 3 sets. = 9 Sets per Muscle Group.

I also eat 6-10 times a day.

So by your assumption I should be highly over weight.

Seeing as I use no AS.

But in the last 2 weeks I have dropped 2% BF and gained 6lbs LBM.

Hmmmm Wierd.

As soon as you guys come up with a decisive answer, lemme know. Hehehe....