posted August 01, 2000 02:06 PM            

1) wayyyyy too much cardio
2) if on keto diet, it's very important to keep the fat grams UP, in order to meet your desired calorie level
3) you've got to carb up at least every 2 weeks otherwise your metabolism will shut down and you'll be screwed DURING the diet, AND after it

posted August 01, 2000 10:58 PM         

That diet is dangerous. Balance is key.

posted August 02, 2000 03:57 PM            

Constipation, well....

posted August 03, 2000 10:56 AM         

Ketosis is very catabolic! The Anabolic Diet keeps you at 30 grams of carbs a day, five days a week. That keeps you out of ketosis, but the body begins to adapt to using fat for fuel. On the weekend, you can eat as many carbs as you like. That's the anabolic phase, but the body is still in a fatburning mode. Once there's a spillover of carb calories to fat storage, after no more than 48 hours, you go back to 30 carbohydrate grams a day. Basically, this is meant to be a diet that can be followed easily. Who wants to wake up at night to eat or spend each hour of the day watching exactly how many calories you eat? If one were efficiently using ketones for energy and lipolysis on a carb depleted diet...it shouldn't produce a state of ketosis. Staying in a ketogenic state basically means that you haven't adapted to the diet. If ketones are being excreted in the urine (which is how you determine ketosis) by using "keto-sticks," then you're not utilizing ketones for energy very efficiently. Someone who is optimally using fat for fuel should not have ketones in their urine.

Animalbolics is the same except you have a moderate carb up once a day at night or after training. (that diet is at www.ironmag.com the anabolic diet is at www.t-mag.com)

posted August 03, 2000 11:49 AM            

Excreting ketones simply means you are producing more ketones than you are using. Since they can not be converted back into FFA, you excrete them. It doesn't mean that you are not using fat for fuel.

Have you read Lyle McDonald's book?

If not, you should.

I would be in ketoland at 30g of carbs a day.

All fat loss diets are catabolic.

posted August 03, 2000 12:19 PM         

have a look http://www.onr.com/user/lylemcd/picturepages/pics3.html

You'd think in three years he'd have a slightly better body composition than he does.

posted August 03, 2000 03:07 PM            

I'm more concerned that we get the information right for everyone than my answer being correct. I do think you may be misinterpreting/misunderstanding some of this.

here goes:

Ketosis is very catabolic!

** All fat loss diets are catabolic. Being in a catabolic state is the ONLY way fat loss can occur. In some rare cases, people are (or seem to be) in catabolic and anabolic states at the same time, but they are usually newbies or using AAS.

The Anabolic Diet keeps you at 30 grams of carbs a day, five days a week. That keeps you out of ketosis, but the body begins to adapt to using fat for fuel.

** Not the way I understand it... It is my understanding that the AD is a CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet). 30g a day would put me in ketosis. There is some disagreement on the point at which fat is utilized as the primary fuel source, but I agree that ketosis is not necessary.

On the weekend, you can eat as many carbs as you like. That's the anabolic phase, but the body is still in a fatburning mode.

** Sort of. Duchaine was very specific about the carb up, Lyle is less so. The idea is that the carb up refills (supercompensates) muscle glycogen, preventing muscle loss via providing adequate fuel for the next week's workouts. Body Opus is very detailed about this.

Once there's a spillover of carb calories to fat storage, after no more than 48 hours, you go back to 30 carbohydrate grams a day.

** Actually, the goal is to have no spillover.

Basically, this is meant to be a diet that can be followed easily.

** That is a big part of it, yes. The main reason this diet works is the sparing of protein. Normally, on a low carb, non-keto diet, you will convert protein into glycogen in the liver, robbing your muscles of needed protein. Ketosis stops that process, switching the body over to using FFA instead of glycogen.

Who wants to wake up at night to eat or spend each hour of the day watching exactly how many calories you eat?

** OK, maybe I'm anal, but how on earth can you diet without tracking AT LEAST your caloric intake? (The whole getting up in the middle of the night was Duchaine, and that was targeted towards elite competitors, not you or I. Lyle's approach is far more reasonable.)

If one were efficiently using ketones for energy and lipolysis on a carb depleted diet...it shouldn't produce a state of ketosis.

** Here is where I think you've got something missing, (I'll look it up tonight.) Ketosis starts when liver glycogen is depleted, AND fat intake is high enough to be a stable source of energy. This causes the liver to begin using dietary and stored FFA to create ketones. The reason for this is to fuel the brain, as the brain can not be fueled via FFA. If you make more ketones than your body (brain) needs, you will excrete them (Yes, i believe other organs can also use ketones, but the brain is the reason they are produced.) Essentially, if you are producing ketones, you ARE in a ketogenic state, regardless of what the ketostix say. So, you are contradicting yourself - if you are making and using ketones, that's ketogenic.

Staying in a ketogenic state basically means that you haven't adapted to the diet. If ketones are being excreted in the urine (which is how you determine ketosis) by using "keto-sticks," then you're not utilizing ketones for energy very efficiently. Someone who is optimally using fat for fuel should not have ketones in their urine.

** See above. The production of ketones, not the excretion, is what defines 'ketogenic.' You can be in ketosis and not excrete ketones in the urine.

** Could you please post the sections of 'AD' where this information is presented?

posted August 03, 2000 05:10 PM            

First, when you cut and paste something from another place, you should present it not as your own idea, but include the source. (Plagarism is bad.) Your original post on this subject is directly copied from the t-mag interview, a violation of copyright.

Second, there is something wrong here. I would think the guy knows what he is talking about, and yes, ketosis is not necessary for fat loss, but his defining ketosis as showing ketones in the urine is incorrect. If you are producing ketones, you are ketogenic... further, the brain requires about 100g of carbs per day for fuel... if you do not injest the carbs and your fat intake is high (as opposed to gluconeogenesis from a high protein intake), you will go into ketosis... perhaps his wording got messed up? Perhaps it was truncated to fit in the article? No matter... you can not take what is said in an interview and think you know everything the guy said... I'm troubled, however, because he gives the impression that dieting while not being in ketosis is not catabolic, while the truth is that if you are losing fat, you are in a catabolic state. You can not drop BF without being catabolic. I'm certainly not afraid to call Dr P. wrong if I think he is.

Have you read his book? What is the explanation there?

posted August 03, 2000 05:27 PM         

nonetheless it is correct according to Dr. P, and no offense but I'd take his word and study quotes (he quotes 2100 of them in his new book) over yours anyday.

also you can't define catabolism as the oxidation of fat for fuel.

if no muscle is lost, then fat burning cannot be called catabolic. the whole premise behind the anabolic diet is to keep the body out of catabolism.

Research has shown that the D-beta-hydroxybuterate and acetoacetate, burned for energy in the anabolic diet, actually decrease protein catabolism.

Giorski J. Muscle triglyceride metabolism during exercise. Cna J Phys Pharm 1992; 70(1):123-31.

30g of carbs is enough to keep you out of ketosis, the body will simply convert amino acids into glucose

posted August 04, 2000 09:58 AM            

** Serial Joe shoots and SCORES!!! I'm no fan of T-mag, trust me... I just think you should have made it clear that these were not your original thoughts.

nonetheless it is correct according to Dr. P, and no offense but I'd take his word and study quotes (he quotes 2100 of them in his new book) over yours anyday.

** So would I, no offense taken (I hope you are also taking no offense, I'm not trying to be nasty, just trying to make sure the information her is as correct as we can get it.) I just think that the information in the interfiew is not enough. Again I ask, did you read his book? He cites not one reference in that interveiw. I'm not saying that he is implicitly wrong, I just think that he either did not have time to explain his reasoning, or did and it was editied out.

also you can't define catabolism as the oxidation of fat for fuel.

** I can if it is stored fat.

if no muscle is lost, then fat burning cannot be called catabolic. the whole premise behind the anabolic diet is to keep the body out of catabolism.

** Depends. Buring stored bodyfat is catabolic. Can you be anabolic and catabolic at the same time? Sort of, yes. What Dr. P is suggesting ends up being 5 days of catabolism and 2 days of anabolism, just like a CKD - ASSUMING a coloric defecit. If there is no caloric defecit, then this entire conversation is moot, because there would be no burning of stored bodyfat, and it would not apply to the original post, which was to drop stored bodyfat. (Again, the interview does not make this clear... I'll get to this in a minute) IIRC, the interpretation of his diet that I've seen, it is a CKD, much like Body Opus. Since I've not read his book, I can't tell you for sure what it says.

Research has shown that the D-beta-hydroxybuterate and acetoacetate, burned for energy in the anabolic diet, actually decrease protein catabolism.

Giorski J. Muscle triglyceride metabolism during exercise. Cna J Phys Pharm 1992; 70(1):123-31.

** Sure. I don't disagree with that, and I do not take issue with your or his contention that ketosis is not necessary - I agree. My problem is with your definition of ketosis, and the assertion that ketosis is somehow worse... you see, they are used as energy in ketosis, too. You don't just use ketones.

30g of carbs is enough to keep you out of ketosis, the body will simply convert amino acids into glucose

** I disagree. 30g of carbs will put me into ketosis in 18-36 hours, depending on my activity level, and I can stay in ketosis up to over 80g of carbs. Further, the whole point of ketosis is that you DON'T convert AA's into fuel, you use them to repair muscle. (this assumes high fat intake. If fat is low, protein high, and carbs very low, you will stay out of ketosis)

** I'm not sure, but I get the feeling he may have been referring to a diet to GAIN mass, not drop bodyfat, in which case, he is absolutely correct, with the exception of his contention that you can be producing ketones for fuel and not be in ketosis. If that is the case, his words do not apply to the original post, AND I would agree with both you and he; ketosis is a very poor way to try to gain muscle mass.

** BTW, I did not have time last night to go through and dig out references, but I brought some stuff with me to work... hopefully I'll have time to post some places to go to read more about this. Again, I wholeheartedly reccomend reading Lyle's book, as well as AD and BO. You can learn a lot not only about keto dieting, but dieting in general.

posted August 06, 2000 01:27 PM         

Also, 30grams of carbs will not prevent a person who is exercising from entering ketosis. I too have gone into ketosis (shown by ketostix) from this amount of carbs.

"violation of copyright? perhaps someone should have told TC that when he ripped of Animalbolics to write the Warrior diet..."

posted August 08, 2000 09:54 AM            

1) I was a bit off in my definition of ketosis. The ketogenic state is when there are excess ketones in the bloodstream, not when they are produced. Sounds like Dr. P had that pretty close. Unfortunately, ketostix are not a particularly accurate measure of blood ketone levels, just the easiest. You can have elevated ketone levels in your blood and not have the stix show you are in ketosis.

2) Lyle makes a point of mentioning that many of Dr P.'s references are of animal studies that may not apply to humans, and Lyle also suggests that there are applicable human studies available.

My suggestion (that I need to take); read AD, BO and The ketogenic diet.