posted July 24, 2000 11:54 PM            

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During the week when no carbs are consumed, would taking 5-10grams of creatine(pure power without sugar carb transport)be good to help with lifting intensity. I figured it would help with the pump during workouts when the lack of carbs are making you feel flat. I know glutamine is not good during the week but I just wasn't sure if creatine would mix with ketosis in a good or bad way. Thanks

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posted July 25, 2000 01:03 AM            

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Creatine's fine. The best way to take it while in ketosis is to drop an ECA, or some form of caffeine before a workout, then take the creatine with water right after the workout - check out www.ironmag.com for an article on taking creatine with ECA and no carbs.

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posted July 25, 2000 01:27 AM            

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Thanks bro, I didn't see too much about while being carb depleated except the study with people who have type 2.Anyway I've been taking eca and creatine for a couple years and never really thought they hindered or helped each other. Later

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posted August 06, 2000 02:47 PM         

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The problem with creatine during a low carb week is the lack of insulin, which is beneficial in transporting creatine into the muscle.

An alternative would be to take the creatine during a workout, when non-insulin dependant glucose transport is high. Mix in some low or no-carb drink and add vit. C to increase solubility and drink while training.

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posted August 06, 2000 09:13 PM            

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From what I've read, the same mechanism responsible for the increased uptake of carbohydrate post-workout can uptake creatine as well, independantly of insulin. Caffeine before the workout furthers this mechanism. Avoiding protein for about half an hour after the workout (besides stimulating the leading fat-burn hormone; GH) is necessary however; it has something to do with amino acids competing for uptake...I think. Eric Hesse explains it much better than I, at his ironmag site. I never heard about the vitamin C thing, however. Do you know how much vitamin C is good? Also, I wonder if alpha lipoic acid would help this process more. I speculate 200mg of ALA just might, and certainly couldn't hurt post-workout, since ALA is such a potent antioxidant as well.

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posted August 07, 2000 12:33 AM            

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During my CKD I've been taking 5g of creatine in water with ala, then about 20min later eating my proteins and fat. Obviously the creatine would absorbe much better wih carbs to spike insulin response but I'm not worried about the max benefit of the creatine. It's cheep and I'm just looking to keep intensity during workouts without carbs plus combating the flat no pump feeling muscles have with lack of carbs. I was primarily concerned with creatine slowing my entry into ketosis but so far it has not hindered my progress as far as I can tell.Thanks

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posted August 07, 2000 03:57 AM            

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I too take creatine during the week while following a CKD. Although it will not be anywhere near its usual effectveness while with carbs, I feel it still gives me a somewhat fuller look still. Creatine is cheap, and I like to be a little on the safe side. Also, it is a great filler for my usual keto pudding, meaning it makes it a little thicker consistency. So far the creatine has not effected my descent into ketosis also. Because of reasons already mentioned by cockdezl about insulin/blood glucose being low, I am gonna try the idea of taking it with vitamin C etc.

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posted August 07, 2000 05:35 PM            

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I think that the vitamen c idea is good but i'm not sure again if too much of it will affect ketosis. Usually if things are going to hinder, they will slow your entry a bit but I've noticed once you are "in" that you can be a little more free in you intake choices. BMJ, i'm just like you, looking for just that little extra pump that creatine can give. Hey, anything helps.Later

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posted August 07, 2000 07:14 PM         

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Vitamin C will increase solubility of creatine due to the low pH. Usually I make 2L of a Crystal Light mix and add about 2-4g of vit. C and then 5-10g of creatine. If anyone remembers the shortlived creatine citrate, this was the rational: lower pH for greater solubility.

As for ALA, this should help creatine absorption, since its mechanism seems to be increase of non-insulin glucose transporters on the cell surface.

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posted August 07, 2000 07:28 PM            

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I definitely think the ALA is the way to go to help absorption. No way could you take a crystal light or anything even close to that type of drink if you wanted to stay in ketosis. Even too much aspratame and glyceren will kick some people out of ketosis.

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posted August 08, 2000 06:51 PM         

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MOSSIMO, I have heard many complain that drinks, generally diet drinks, kick them out of ketosis. They claim that when they drink too much of them that they show no ketones on the Ketostix. So the rational was that either the citrate or Nutrasweet was the offending agent. I have the opinion that it is the hydration that is diluting their urine, so that the ketones are below the detection limit on the Stix. I would like to contact a manufacturer to find out what the minimun detection limit is on their Ketostix.

I don't think that these people are actually kicked out of ketosis, mainly from the fact that many who claim this still mention that they lost fat even though they couldn't show ketone readings.

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posted August 08, 2000 07:47 PM            

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That's true. You can't always rely on the keto sticks to gauge your ketone level. Like you stated, comsuming lots of water will show a diluted level, as well as the time of day you check your levels.Also a big factor is your activity level, if you doing lots of exersice you could be using most of your ketones with less left to excreate, as well as checking ketones directly after strenuous exercise might not be a great idea either. Best bet is first thing in mourning before exercise and after plenty of rest. That's my .02 cents anyway.

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posted August 09, 2000 12:56 AM            

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PLEASE, don't gague your progress on a CKD based on the ridiculous ketostix. Judje ketosis by feel and instinct, and don't dwell on weather or not "you're in", but focus on whether or not you're dropping fat. I fucked up a good portion of my CKD (which I swore was going to be over two weeks ago, but hey...) wasting time and worrying about ketostix. I tortured myself by drinking nothing but water and black coffee, avoiding aspartame and citric acid religiously. I lost little fat because to aleviate my cravings, I would simply overeat on ketogenic foods. I ended up gaining fat, and eventually turned what was supposed to be a cutting cycle into a bulking one. Now that I've decided to seriously cut down, I am much more closely following the advice of Dr. Mauro DiPasquale rather than Dan Duchaine. DiPasquale focuses much more on the hormonal aspects of a high fat, low carb diet than on ketosis. In fact, he states it is unnecessary for fat loss. From experience, I agree, because since I've switched over from a Body-Opus type diet to the Anabolic Diet, I have lost more fat, all the while consuming plenty of aspartame and citric acid, along with glutamine (all of which kick you out of "magical" ketosis). Follow the same food guidelines as Duchaine outlines; 90% of maintenance calories, 65-70% fat, 5% carbs and you will lose fat WITHOUT losing muscle no matter what. And you will have the metabolic edge of a low carb diet, and the testosterone-promoting and apetite-surpressing effects of a high fat diet, regardles of what those little shit-stix say. Don't deprive yourself of Jello, Crystal Light, L-glutamine and other uselful low carb tools - take it from me who's made that mistake - it does more harm than good.
ps even when I was drinking nothing but water and coffee, I still couldn't get readings. My personal theory is that it may have something to do with ph levels, since I consume large amounts of vitamin C. Also, lots of water dilutes the urine so there isn't a high concentration of anything in it, including ketones.

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