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 Is Keto diet better for people really fat, or will it help me?
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| Author | Topic: Is Keto diet better for people really fat, or will it help me? |
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sabes35 Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 45) |
posted May 11, 2000 09:47 PM
  
What im trying to say is, is was reading Lyle Mcdonald's FAC on mesomorphosis.com, and most of the people who were asking questions seemed to be either women, or overwieght men. Like i've stated before, Im about 7 or 8 % bodyfat....and am trying very very hard to get down to 5 or lower. Will Keto do it for me? And will keeping your fats a little lower that he reccomends speed up the fat burning process? I've been going semi-low carbs for a week now, (about 80-100g's) and really dont feel like I'm loosing anything. Will Ketosis be able to get me to drop to 5%? PS: is cheese ok on Keto? and which cheeses are low in fat and low in Sodium? Thanks..... IP: Logged |
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MR. BMJ Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 42) |
posted May 12, 2000 04:11 AM
For the most part, a CKD diet will definately get you where you need as far as leaning-up. One thing you have to remember is that CKD's are meant for those who can not reach their goals on most normal diets. If you can reach your goals on a normal diet, then I would not bother with the CKD's. In other words, do not cut out the carbs unless you have to because it is not fun on a CKD diet. Although, the longer you use a CKD, the more you get used to it. I have to follow a CKD diet to reach my goals of low Body fat percentages. I have been following one the last 13 weeks and I am at 6% bodyfat. I can not get this low unless I follow a CKD. IP: Logged |
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MR. BMJ Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 42) |
posted May 12, 2000 04:34 AM
As far as lowering your Fat% in a CKD, remember that the higher the percentage of fat in your meals the faster your descent into ketosis will be. Once ketosis is established, most people report that they can lower their percentage of fat and raise their percentage of protein in meals (usually a 2:1 to 1:1 ratio). For me, I don't like to bring down my fat percentage too much because I am only in ketosis for about 3-5 days until I start my carb-up, and I do not want to screw things up, and I opt to just keep my meals fairly the same throughout the dieting phase of the week. I stick with around 80-85% fat for each meals with about 15-20% protein and as little carbs as possible. Sometimes protein can be converted into glucose when it is raised too high. ****As far as cheese, I definately use it while in ketosis, it is one of my weak points in life (which comes in handy with a CKD). So yes, you can eat cheese in your diet, just look at the label and make sure it does not have that many grams of carbs per serving. One last thing, you mentioned that you lowered your carb count, Are you trying to establish Ketosis? If so, I am afraid that you will have to lower it much lower than you have it in order to reach ketosis. Most people have to bring their carbs down to at least 15-30 grams in order to establish ketosis. Once they establish it, some people can raise it to between 30- 50 grams. Sorry for the long report, its like 1:30 in the morning and I may be rambling on. Hope this helps some though. IP: Logged |
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sabes35 Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 45) |
posted May 12, 2000 07:48 AM
BMJ, thanks, no I'm not trying to establish ketosis yet....I use to eat probably around 50 to 60% carbs though the day, 30% protien and 10 to 20% fat. I changed it now to about 42% protien, 28% carbs, and 32% fat....and upped my total calories. I've never been fat on my regular diet. But I am trying to get rid of the last layer of bodyfat on me. So, i cut my carbs drastically, although not keto, and am playing it by ear to see my progress. Hopefully i can get there without going on a CDC diet...but we'll see. I'm affraid that i might get impatient and try it anyway. You menteioned carbing up...I thought you were supposed to stay low carbs for a while....can you explain? and should i be using a cheat day to fool the matabolism? Thanks, gare IP: Logged |
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MR. BMJ Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 42) |
posted May 12, 2000 10:48 PM
Lyle Mcdonald's "The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet" and Dan Duchaine's "Bodyopus" diet are both examples of diets that employ dieting in ketosis (dieting phase basically throughout the weekdays) and a period of 24-48 hours of carb loading (weekends) to help replenish the muscles with glycogen. In other words, BodyOpus for example, is designed to start on Sunday night at 6:00pm and from this time until Friday evening, you try to get into ketosis as fast as you can. This is the dieting phase of the scheme, and your body is using its own bodyfat as fuel as well as the fats that you ingest through eating. On Friday evening, you perform a whole body workout to try and deplete your muscles and liver of what glycogen is left in them. After this workout you eat carbs every 2 hours to feed muscle cells with blood glucose/glycogen. You are trying to create the condition known as "Supercompensation" which causes a "cellular anabolic expansion" of the muscle cells. After the workout both your insulin levels and enzymes are at their highest, which allows blood glucose to be shuttled straight into your muscle cells and not your fat cells. Taking advantage of this situation allows the dieter to eat supra-amounts of carbs and not get fat. Your muscles will swell and feel really tight if they are completely compensated. The trick is to stop eating carbs before your body starts to shuttle them into your fat cells. This is because your insulin levels will eventually go back to normal and sensitivity will be lower. This is why you eat every 2 hours over the 48 hours of carbing. Basically your goal is to go back into the dieting phase with the same percentage of bodyfat, but your muscles (and your liver depending on what you eat) will be fully glycogenated. Gaining up to 15 pounds is not uncommen for some individuals. Most of it will not only be glycogen being restored into the muscles, but also water that was lost during the dieting phase. Also, small amounts of fat will be added for those dieters that overdue it, but it is usually lost during the next dieting phase and is for the most part, very minimal. Cutting the carb-up length (Lyle Mcdonald's version) will also help to decrease any fat gained over the weekend. All I know is that following the weekend carb-up, My muscles get so friggen tight on Monday and Tuesday's workouts that it is unbelievable. Once you get the timing, the amounts of food, and types of food under control according to your own body (through experimentation), these CKD's are unmatched in their effectiveness of reaching your goals. Well, I guess I overdid it again, but I hope this explains things a little. IP: Logged |
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sabes35 Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 45) |
posted May 13, 2000 12:03 AM
Thanks, that was the info I was looking for. My quesion is though what are the goals of these diets? At first I thought Keto was purely fat burning, but when you add the anabolic effect I got confused. And when you say every two hours, does that mean you have to get up every two hours to eat carbs? And do these carbs have to always be complex, or can they be simple as well? Gary IP: Logged |
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MR. BMJ Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 42) |
posted May 13, 2000 03:33 PM
For the most part, these diets are designed to help you receive ultra low bodyfat levels that are normally not achieved on other diets. They are sort of a last resort plan. In bodyopus, Duchaine sets up 2 other diets to help you achieve your goals before you take the leap into BodyOpus. They are the "Pre-Diet Diet" (60% carbs, 30% Protein, and 10% Fat). You follow this diet until it stops working for ya, then you switch over to the "Isocaloric Diet", Which is 33%carbs, 33%protein, and 33% Fat. The Isocaloric diet is very effective and for the most part, it can get most people to their goals. When the Isocaloric diet stops working, then you decide whether or not you want to try out Bodyopus. I personally think that BodyOpus is more efficient as a fat burning diet than a muscle building diet. However, this is different for some individuals. I have never tried it as a muscle building diet because I could get these effect (which would be easier) by following the isocaloric diet/any diet that contains carbs. Eating supra-amounts of fats is boring, but I imagine if you tried increasing the calories you could find out if gaining muscle is possible. I imagine this is different from individual to individual. From what I have read, most people do not get good results from CKD's as a muscle builder because of the lowered carb levels, which are basically in a nutshell, essential for muscle building. As far as gaining muscle/weight over the carb-up on these CKD's, Most of it is glycogen and water being restored from the dieting phase. I have gained up to 15-18 lbs. from following the 48 hour Bodyopus plan, and for the most part when I go back into monday's dieting phase, I will look kind of watered down. But this is usually lost by Tuesday (At least half the weight), and is really not that big of a deal to me. But, I find that if I cut the carb-up to 24-30 hours, then I come out looking tighter and less watered down. As,far as eating every two hours during the carb-up, it depends on who you ask, Dan stresses it (even during sleeping), but Lyle McDonald feels that as long as you get the calories in every few hours in the 24 hour period, then you will still receive compensation. Both ways have worked for me, so I guess it depends on whether you are too lazy to wake up during the night. As far as the types of carbs, You start out eating very high glycemic carbs then you evolve into complex carbs. I usually have ultra fuel drinks and designer protein for my first couple of meals, then I will have a couple bowls of corn flakes for the next couple of meals, then I will start eating more solid foods with high glycemic rating like muffins, pop tarts, etc; Then I will start eating more complex carbs after this. The last 2 meals I eat are the same as my first couple, which are ultra fuels and protein drinks. After this, its back to fats and trying to re-establish ketosis. Oh yeah, before I forget, fat% levels are low over the weekend, its almost like the reverse of the dieting phase. ***As far as the "cellular anabolic expansion" goes, I do not think anybody really understands why the muscles grow in this state, but they speculate it is because when the muscle cells are at there greatest (size) that this is the time when they are more accepting to growth, and create other muscle cells. Its like a balloon that expands and is full, except cells will help form other cells (muscle growth) more efficiciently at this point. Hope this helps man. Did I answer your question? sorry for the long posts. IP: Logged |
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sabes35 Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 45) |
posted May 13, 2000 06:36 PM
Yea man that explains a lot. Let me ask you....I've been the second step you talked about for about a week now. In fact I have been hanging around 42% Protien 32% fat %28 carbs. 1st question...what do you think of that split for cutting? And second, how long should I give that diet to work, before I go into a keto type diet? Like I said Im around 7% and want to go below 5. thanks, Gare. IP: Logged |
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MR. BMJ Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 42) |
posted May 13, 2000 09:37 PM
hmmm.. This is kind of a hard question to answer, but i'll do my best. First off, congratulations on getting to 7% as it is. The reason this is kind of hard to answer is because it's sort of a personal call that the dieter himself has to answer. The main indicator that you want to look at I would say is if your rate of fat burning is drastically slowed down. If you are still getting good results, then stick with what you are doing. Now, if you are not getting great results, then there is a couple of things you can try. The ratio you have right now is close enough to the ideal zone/isocaloric recommendations. One of the benefits that these types of diets give is that they get your body and your taste buds used to eating fat before jumping into a ketogenic diet. For the most part, there is not too much you can really eat and select from that qualifies for the typical ketogenic meal. You have to be kind of creative, but it is not that hard when you get used to it. Basically anything that does not have carbs, and anything that has enough fat to establish ketosis is fine. One thing you could do is get an oral thermometer and take your temperature first thing in the morning upon waking up. If your temp. is not very high or close to normal (normal is 98.6), then this could be an indicator that your thyroid and metabolism are not optimal for fat burning. This could be a good way to start a ketogenic diet. This method is not entirely accurate, but it is something to consider. Normally you want to take your temp. before you start a diet because this will tell you a more accurate reading, but you have already started. What you can do is take your temp. at say Monday and write it down, then wait til the following Monday and take it again. If it has went down, then you know that your body is not being very efficient at burning fat. This is when losing fat starts getting hard to get rid of and a change is needed. I assume you are already taking thermogenic drugs, but if not, then this could help. The only other ways to raise your body temp. would be to add more calories until it makes an increase (most notably an increase in carbs) in body temperature or take thyroid hormones. I'll assume that you do not want to use thyroid drugs, so this may be a good time to change to the keto diet. I guess you could add more cardio., but doing too much will work against you, so that may not be an option. Also, doing your cardio in the mnorning on an empty stomach (before you eat anything) will help burn more calories from fat. Wait an hour after cardio before you eat. Uhh, what else, I can't really think of anything else, so I guess if you take all this into consideration, then it might be a good way to know that your current diet is not working very well, and it may be a good spot to try a keto diet. I would give your current diet a couple weeks of trial and error though, especially since you just started to eat this way. Don't know if I answered your question directly, but this is how I usually view my diet when making changes to it. I'm sure that I am missing something here, but for the most part, this is all I can really think of right now. Hope this has helped some. IP: Logged |
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sabes35 Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 45) |
posted May 13, 2000 11:24 PM
Yea you helped a lot. I'm going to stay with this current diet for a few weeks then adn see what happends. Thanks, Gary IP: Logged |
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MR. BMJ Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 42) |
posted May 14, 2000 04:33 AM
Let me know how things work out man. Also, what types of foods/meals do you usually eat each day right now. IP: Logged |
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sabes35 Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 45) |
posted May 14, 2000 09:39 AM
Hey man.....typical day right now 1st meal: Scrabled eggs whites 2nd meal Isopure Meal replacement shake Workout 3rd meal (post workout) Pro Protien bar 4th meal 9 OZ. chicken grilled/ 2 regular hot dogs (no bun/) 2 tablespoons of peanut butter 5th meal Isopure low carb protien shake 6th meal Scrambled egg whites/ coffie (black)
By the way, e-mail is [email protected] IP: Logged |
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MR. BMJ Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 42) |
posted May 14, 2000 06:57 PM
Looks good man. Good Job. How about supplements, Which ones are you taking? IP: Logged |
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sabes35 Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 45) |
posted May 14, 2000 11:45 PM
Only suppliments are a daily multivitimin Flax seed oil pills twice a day ALA 300mg twice a day I dont currently take any thermogenic product...I have a hard time paying for everything at one time... would you suggest getting one? IP: Logged |
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MR. BMJ Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 42) |
posted May 16, 2000 03:31 AM
Hey SABES, I will E-mail you instead of writing here, it may be easier. IP: Logged |
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