When cutting, I try to stick to a 40-30-30 type diet that has only 80%-85% of the total calories I usually consume. Morning meals are a little heavier on the carbs and the later meals are heavier on the protein. My last meal ( I eat 5 meals ) has no carbs at all. You have to find foods you like and be patient. The next trick is to get you metabolism up. I do cardio in the morning so as to take maximum advantage of the natural metabolic acceleration it provides. To keep the metabolism up through the rest of the day I supplement cardio work with E/C/A stack or Lipokinetix. Clen has never worked for me.

Or maybe you�re one of the people Atkins will work for.

Also, the Atkins diet and all other ketogenic diets including the ones designed for weight training that involve strategically-timed consumption of carbs(Body Opus etc.) are NOT HIGH PROTEIN DIETS!!!!!!

They are HIGH FAT, MODERATE protein, near-zero carb diets!! 60-70% fat, 30-35% protein, 5% carbs - not high protein. Too much protein = gluconeogenesis which= no ketosis which means the diet won't work unless you keep track of calories like any other diet.

I do not know how to get all the fat that is required without all that protein.

Can someone list some keto diet foods that are high in dietary fat and moderatee in protein. I haven't been able to find shit!!!

WTF?

Most competitive bodybuilders DO NOT use ketogenic diets for the simple reason that they are genetically gifted in the ability to lose bodyfat with little effort. If you look at where most competitive BB'rs start, they tend to be ectomorphs with a few mesomorphs...these are the people who have little problems with fat accrual. Duchaine stated that a keto diet is the best in terms of getting to low bodyfat % for the average person.

"A ketogenic diet is used short term to trick your body. AND it has to be carefully planned and monitored."

Short term?? You may want to tell this to all the epileptic children who are using Johns Hopkins' keto diet to control their seizures. Many of them are on a keto diet for over a year.

"It's an advanced (and not healthy) diet strategy for competition-level athletes. Most people who try it use it wrong."

How hard is simply eating meat and fat and checking foods for carb content?? The hardest part is not the food choice, but the will to stay on such a redundant choice of foods and suppression of carb cravings.

"That said, Atkins is even worse. Just eliminating carbs in the hopes that your body will use its fat stores simply doesn't work. The body needs carbs for fuel. When it doesn't get fuel it starts cannibalizing muscle long before it turns to the fat stores for fuel."

Eliminating carbs is the most efficient way at tapping into your fat stores. The body always uses some protein for fuel in the first days of any diet (that is sub-maintanance calories), this is due to the fact that enzymatic pathways necessary for fat utilization have to be up-regulated. The benefit of a keto diet is that amino acid oxidation reduces after initiation of ketosis, whereas on a low fat, high protein diet, amino acid oxidation remains high.

Also, the body does not need carbs for fuel, this is simply not true. The body PREFERS carbs.

"Yes, cutting out simple carbs (sugars like fructose) is a good idea unless you need to quickly replenish glycogen stores. Cutting out complex carbs is the surest way to SLOW your metabolism and sacrifice muscle. Cut down on fat. Cut down on sugars. Eat RIGHT."

Personally, I've used this type diet the last two contest seasons. Last year I didn't get in good enough shape to compete and this year I placed 3rd in my class. The diet is very easy for me and works so well the first month (even though my workouts suck) that I stick with it for two or three more months, and it just doesn't seem to get me "ripped" past a certain level. Don't get me wrong it will suck the water out of you during the no-carb period giving you a lean but flat appearence. I guess the best diet is the one you can stick with. Lyle McDonald wrote a good book "The Ketogenic Diet" on the subject. I'll help you with any questions if I can, but I'm still looking for the right diet for me to get that dry vascular look.

Lizzy, it sounds like you've got your dieting act together (is it fair to assume you're female???). I hope you will contribute to the women's board sometime because I feel there is much you could share that would be of interest. This topic will probably die in it's tracks, but I hope that we will get some enlightening input from the likes of Cockdez1, MR. BMJ, Valdez or anyone else that has experiences to share.

I think cockdezl hit it pretty much on the dot with his dissection of the previous guy/gal's post (cant remember the name/handle). Most pro's are well gifted individuals that have never really had a problem of being the usual fatties (no offense here), and even if they did, they are using every drug imaginable to keep in shape even when bulking. I mean look at Ronnie Coleman at 300 pounds. He is not even fat, just water retented. The combination of DNP, Growth Hormone, Thyroid meds, and everything else keeps these guys lean even when they are not competing. Therefore, if you can get down to contest shape on a non-keto diet, then why bother with the hassle of eliminating the carbs. Personally, I am not that gifted, and I gain more than my fair share of "stubborn" body fat, and it can only be lost through a CKD. If I could do it without a CKD, I would, but I can't. And yes, I do not have the money for growth hormone and every other drug that would come in handy.

MR. BMJ stated above that Elzi Volk used a keto diet to get in competition level, and although her lower body was not as good as the upper, she was still very impressive. We know that women have stubborn fat depots in the lower body due to hormones and alpha-2 receptors, and this is a fact no matter what the diet.

We know that keto diets do not show significant differences in weight loss compared to that of high carb diets, but new research is showing that the choice of carbs (or restriction of) does make a difference in LBM retention. A recent study showed that low GI carbs caused less LBM loss, as compared to high GI. This seems to smack us in the face, since we assume that the insulin spikes should be anabolic, but from research we know that the more insulin present, the more gluconeogenic activity (muscle breakdown, or protein utilization). With lower carbs or lower GI carbs, there is a reduction in insulin plus an increase in fatty acid levels, which suppresses gluconeogenesis, thus preserving muscle.

Good luck.

4rt

Would the diet work as effectively WITHOUT the huge fat intake? I just don't feel right eating such fatty foods.

If I can endure the lethargy and low energy levels, would it work if I cut out the fats as well? Or would that mean my calories are so low that my metabolism would slow to a stop?

What do you think about replacing the fatty foods with lean, protein foods? So I'm eating almost 100% protein? Would that work?

Ooooh boy! Better get the old constipation relief and haemorrhoid cream out.

One thing I do agree on here is that in most cases, if not all, people should get down to as low body fat as possible before taking on a keto type diet. Why eat fat, grease, and protein, when you can do it with carbs. It just makes sense to me. I generally try and get down to around 9% bodyfat before doing a keto diet. At least that's what I have done before. Now, I have no problem jumping into a keto/CKD because my body adjust to it quickly. Also, I have done my fair share of dieting, and I know what to do and what not to do in order for it to work wonders for me.

If you're okay with the low energy levels and lethary, what advantage does increased fat have? Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I can't get over the idea of eating a lot of fat while trying to lose it.

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