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 I must refute a previous argument!
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| Author | Topic: I must refute a previous argument! |
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phiend Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 234) |
posted February 02, 2000 01:24 AM
  I am not sure who, but earlier someone said that there is no such thing as a hardgainer, just laziness. Fuck dat! Of course there are hardgainers. It is just a fact that some people don't have good genetics. I am lucky, because I am Italian and all men in my family are short and stalky (I am 5'9" 180lbs and still growing). However, many people are like 5'9" 150lbs. or even 6'2" 150lbs. Cut them some slack and give them some advise. Don't blow them off and tell them that they are lazy. Again, that's just my opinion.  IP: Logged |
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styles Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 73) |
posted February 02, 2000 01:31 AM
i totally agree, the same goes with overwieght people. it can be genetics, metabolism, whatever. i have a friend who is 6'2 145lbs and he tried working out, he eats everything i wish i could but no growth.
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david3 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 100) |
posted February 02, 2000 08:27 AM
yOU SAID IT ALL IP: Logged |
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WarLobo Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 155) |
posted February 02, 2000 10:38 AM
Oh BS.... If a guy is 5'9" and only 150 - 160lbs. than it is plan and simple as a zit on my ass... HE IS NOT EATING RIGHT. And therefore is not taking the time to analyze his nutritional requirements. This translates into not putting in the EFFORT, and this can be called LAZINESS. Cover it up, make excuses if you will, but we all know the real deal. It takes consistent and persistent day to day work. Period. Many folks on here do what it takes and I would wager many of us do not even think twice about mixing our protein drinks, reading the labels in the grocery store, making sure we have QUALITY snacks available when we need 'em. We have gotten to a point where most of this stuff is second nature. But to some of the newer lifters all this is can be overwhelming and they just don't want to do it. So they use the "Hard Gainer" crybaby excuse. Everyone of us as had sticking points, times when we were just fricking tired of working out. Does that make us "Hard Gainers" NO. It make us human. And humans are generally big fat lazy SOB's who would rather sit on the couch and cram Ho Ho's while winning about how unfair his/her genetics are. What....To harsh fer ya? So I guess "Hard Gainers" have some medical condition that prevents them from putting on muscle? Hell, "Hard Gainers" means to me that it is EASIER to keep lean and cut due to a faster metabolism. If in fact they even have a faster metabolism as opposed to just being lazy. Late Lobo p.s. Flames expected of course.... IP: Logged |
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HARDBALL2 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 197) |
posted February 02, 2000 10:50 AM
LOBO, no flame here...I too once used "HARDGAINER" as an excuse. I just wasn't eating right! Now I eat 6-7 meals a day. about 5500-6500 calories a day. NOW I"M DIESEL!!!! So it is a lot about nutrition. but anyways, you all know how opinions are!! LOBO I HAVE TO FLAME YOU JUST BECUASE......................YOU BIG JERK!! GET HIGE AND DROP BOMBS!!! IP: Logged |
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Adonis Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 204) |
posted February 02, 2000 11:26 AM
I am 5' 9" 190# use to weigh 135# out of HS and in the Army gained 30# by eating rite and then another 10# by eating everything in sight. Im with War and Hard on this, if you eat like a mad man and work your lazy ass off, your gonna get big....and thats the bottom line!!!! IP: Logged |
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kpumpin Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 112) |
posted February 02, 2000 11:45 AM
I am the biggest advocate of the term hardgainer being thrown out of bodybuilding lingo. As far as genetics, i dont say that they dont play a roll in ability to gain muscle at a faster rate than someone else, or to get leaner that someone else under different circumstances. However, i do believe that anyone can make consistant gains if following a correct plan, and can transform their physique over a period of time to where their friends will hardly recognize them. If a person is stuck at a low bodyweight with correct training and rest then obviously they arent supplying their body with enough nutrients to suppert growth. Not everybody has the genetic potential to be Mr. O, but every medically healthly person with desire and dedication can make outstanding gains even in a natural state. I have personally worked with many of these so called hardgainers on several occassions. I even went to the length of taking a few of them into my home for an extended period of time to show them what it was to live the life. Most people have no idea what it take and how time consuming it is. Most of these people had descently high metabolisms and a few had crazy ones(like myself). It is hard to get someone used to sitting down and eating alot of food by the clock not by their hunger. It isnt easy to prepare 6-7 meals in the morning for the rest of the day. The ones with the crazy metabloisms also didnt enjoy the middle of the night feeding. I have never seen anybody fail at becoming stronger and more muscular when correcting their nutrition. Most of these people considered themselves hardgainers because they had a fast metabloism and were naturally thin with small bone structures. I think this is the ideal environment for bodybuilding. I started out at 120 pounds at 5'10" tall as a high school senior with the majority of the male in my family around the same size with a few smaller believe it or not. I gave up everything for the quest of becoming bigger. I didnt go out much or to places where i didnt have access to the kind and quantity of food i needed, i made sur i got plenty of rest, and trained hard and infrequent. I can make better gains naturally than most of the roiders around me because i make sure there arent any short comings in my diet. They are always amazed and i get constant comments on how i continue to make progress and they want to know the secret. Sometimes i will explain it, but most of the time i just blow it off cause i know they are going to take it with a grain of salt and keep looking for some secret pill to transform them overnight. Bottom line is if you are stuck in the list of the so called hardgainers and would like to know the secret of how to destroy the outdated term, then get your diet info, training info, and rest scedule together and contact me. If you are willing to dedicate your life to getting huge then you will, if you want to do it part time or do what it takes to get by then call yourself a hardgainer and continue to dwell in the realm of normalcy. Oh well, ive had my rant. See ya in about 20 pounds. kpumpin IP: Logged |
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JJKNIGHTS Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 13) |
posted February 02, 2000 11:46 AM
It all depends on genetics and what type body you have. Ectomorph, Endomorph, or a Mesoporph. Find out what body type you are then plan your diet and work out around it. There are a lot of good articles out there on it. Do some research and you too can gain, but some have to work at it more! JJ IP: Logged |
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macrophage69alpha Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 568) |
posted February 02, 2000 12:29 PM
WITH A FEW EXCEPTIONS, MOSTLY OF THE MEDICAL MALADY VARIETY, I AM IN ALMOST TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH LOBO. A LOT OF THE GUYS WHO ARE 5'9 160 POUNDS MAY HAVE HIGH METABOLISM- BUT IF THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES THEY SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT IT- IT SURE IS HELL OF A LOT EASIER LIFE FOR THE ECTOMORPHS THAN IT IS FOR BIG ENDOMORPHS WHEN DIET TIME COMES AROUND. IN CLOSING, EVERYBODY HAS DIFFERENT GENETICS AND THEREFORE A DIFFERENT NATURAL POTENTIAL, HOWEVER WITH A VERY FEW MEDICAL EXCEPTIONS, EVERYBODY CAN MAKE PROGRESS IN THE GYM IF THEY ARE WILLING TO INVEST THE TIME, THE EFFORT AND THE MONEY (hey food, supplements, and gyms aint free) THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE GOOD GAINS- I MEAN HELL AREN'T GOOD GAINS RELATIVE ANYWAY.5'6 135 TO 180 IS A 33%INCREASE IN MASS. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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chesty unregistered (Total posts: 568) |
posted February 02, 2000 12:37 PM
I would agree with all the above. However, I believe almost 99% of it is from laziness and the wanna be attitude. People always ask me how long did it take you to get big and look that way? When I tell them I have been doing this for almost 15 years you can litterally see their jaws bounce off the floor. Plain and simple it is hard, ball busting work! PERIOD! I had elbow surgery as stated before, and in less than two months of that I was back benching 315 for 6-8 reps. The guy spotting me stated that was incredible. I asked why? He said because there was no way he could do what I just did after the surgery I had. And he is a "body builder" too. So, I reiterate it is just ball busting hard ass work and determination to never quit! PERIOD! CHESTY IP: Logged |
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phiend Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 234) |
posted February 02, 2000 04:58 PM
I don't mean to flame or anything, but FUCK you guys. You sound so arrogant. I am only 5'9" 180lbs and 5% bf. If I didn't juice, I probably wouldn't even be 180lbs. which is pretty small. If you guys were so smart, you would know that scientific research has proven that genetics play a role in size. Football players aren't football players because they eat way more than others. Their bodies just synthesize the protein they eat and it is their genetics top be tall. Do you actually think that a kid with the genetics to be 5'6" can be 6'2" if he drinks tons of milk all his life? Fuck that! I lived off milk as a kid and still do, and I am done growing at 5'9". Don't be ignorant. Some people just aren't meant to be big, and aren't willing to use juice. Even though I use juice, I think it is much better to go natural cuz obviously what we do is not good for us. IP: Logged |
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chesty unregistered (Total posts: 234) |
posted February 02, 2000 05:04 PM
You know hardgainer attitude is an excuse. I started at 165 pounds and 5'10" I busted my ass day after day far exceeding what the average smoe did. It paid off I am 215 and 8-10%body fat right now. That was with no juice. With it I gained 15 pounds more to 230. There is no one in my family even close to my physique past or present. Yes genetics plays a role, but nothing will replace ball busting work. Not juice, nothing. I trained a girl once a few weeks ago who said she was trying to get ready for a contes. After two leg workouts and back work out she stopped training with me. She told everyone at the gym that she had never trained that hard nor hurt that much for days after. She went back to her skinny loser partners. The work was just too much. If you ain't pukin' you ain't workin'. nuff said. chesty IP: Logged |
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The_Blond_Myth Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 67) |
posted February 02, 2000 08:42 PM
I used to be 145lbs, I got to 205lbs naturally... I was as thin as they come, but I followed proper nutrition from the start. Hardgainer? more like lazy ass to me. There are about 5,000 on my college campus and I bet there are two people(including myself) that understand the proper nutrition it takes to put on muscle. Eating every 3 hours, 6 times a day, with serious correct training WILL produce unbelievable results. Don't tell me otherwhise, because I have done it, and taught my brother, and he has gone from 140 to a current weight of 190 in little under two years, with no drugs or supplements. Anyone can talk the bullshit very, very few can do it...Look around? I see a bunch of fucking lazy fat, ugly pathetic slobs...Esp the women!! People with no desire to change anything "I'm happy with how I am" and "Your a freak for wanting to be that big" I don't fucking understand it? People get shocked when u make results, and accuse u of gearing up. This shows how few people understand that hard work does it, not drugs!!! LP IP: Logged |
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marky Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 106) |
posted February 02, 2000 08:55 PM
PHYSICS ARE PHYSICS-MASS COMES FROM MASS! YOU DONT GET FAT ON AIR AND YOU DONT GROW ON AIR. FOR EVERY FAT PERSON, THERE'S AN INDIVIDUAL THAT HAS NEGLECTED THEMSELVES OVER A LIFETIME!! THEY HAVE CONDITIONED THEIR BODIES TO WHAT THEY ARE. IF THEY WANT TO BE THINNER, THEY NEED TO "TOTAL RETRAIN" THEIR HABITS AND LIFESTYLES. I WOULD ASK A FAT PERSON, IF YOU DONT EAT FRIED FOOD, HEAVY DAIRY PRODUCTS, CANDY, SUGARY PRODUCTS , USE MARGARINE OR BUTTER, HAVE ICE CREAM, LOTS OF FATTY CHEESES, NUTS, CHOCOLATE, COLD CUTS, EAT SAUSAGE OR BACON, THEN HOW CAN YOU BE FAT!? GENETICS?ONLY SOME-LIFESTYLE-THE MAJORITY-OTHERWISE WHY CAN FAT PEOPLE GET THIN!? IP: Logged |
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macrophage69alpha Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 568) |
posted February 02, 2000 09:16 PM
phiend you really need to stop taking shit personally. as to your comments about height, i dont see anywhere comments regarding how tall you have to be. Lee Preist is one of the most massive guys in bodybuilding and he is only 5'4. What i was trying to say and the others as well is that with proper diet, training, and dedication EVERYONE can make solid gains- some more and some less- but gains none the less. there are a few exceptions: people with thyroid dysfunction, those with supra low test production and other medical maladies. what was said by me is that all gains are relative- a guy that starts out a 6' 200lbs gains 40lbs he has increased his mass by 20%. a guy that is 5'9 160 that gains 40lbs has made gains of 25%. of course some people are always going to be bigger because of their genetics but that does not take away from guys who were smaller to start out and have made spectacular progress both naturally and with the aid of certain supplements. phiend- I really feel that your comments about the arrogance of other people posting in this thread is much more applicable to you- you discount the ideas of others without even considering them and then imperiously state your own opinion. BTW- TEST IS KING, LONG LIVE THE KING ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Fe3 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 211) |
posted February 02, 2000 11:06 PM
I agree with Macrophage, he knows what he's talking about. IP: Logged |
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2Thick Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 346) |
posted February 03, 2000 12:15 AM
I would like to step in and say a few things. First of all I would like to defend Phiend (kind of). I think he is stressing his point so stringently because he has had a hard time making steady (and noticeable) gains. Don't forget that most lifters (including myself) have some sort of muscle dismorphia. Therefore, unless we gain a substantial amount of weight at one time, it doesn't seem like we are getting bigger. Secondly, I would like to point out the fact that not all people can eat right (even if they know how to eat). There are some big bucks involved in eating 6-7 meals a day. I know that most guys in university have a hard time gathering the funds to eat chicken breast 4 times a day (and not to mention the expensive protein powders). There is more involved in gaining weight than knowledge and hard work. Economics also has an influence. Jon
[This message has been edited by 2Thick (edited February 03, 2000).] IP: Logged |
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phiend Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 234) |
posted February 03, 2000 12:19 AM
Okay. Well now, you guys are changing your arguments. Now, you are saying that genetics do matter, but a small person can still put on size. No shit. I never said that a person could not put on size. That's obvious. However, IT IS A FACT that people with bad genetics can not look like Mike O'Hearns naturally, while others can. I CAN'T BE TAKING IT PERSONALLY cuz I am not a hardgainer. Therefore, my argumentation would not be self defense; it would be for others. I am not trying to pick a fight, but I do not see how you guys are unable to conjure the fact that genetics matter. If it is so easy for you guys to gain, then why do you juice? I you starting juicing because you stopped gaining, that makes you a hardgainer. Otherwise, you must have just been too impatient to grow slowly. Well, I am starting to get become incoherent and probably make nonsense, so I'll stop. IP: Logged |
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macrophage69alpha Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 568) |
posted February 03, 2000 12:25 AM
HEY 2THICK nice of you to join us if you look at my post three up you will see that I hit the money issue. But that being said even poor college students can eat a whole hell of a lot if they are smart and frugal. buy bulk. use coupons. get a job hashing at a sorority they usually give you food and money- or a job a the dorm dining hall. eat potatoes- eat them a lot
knowledge is power BTW- a sugar momma couldnt hurt. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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macrophage69alpha Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 568) |
posted February 03, 2000 12:33 AM
Phiend maybe you have not been reading my posts very well, I have not changed the subject at all. Please actually read the posts before you attack them and their authors. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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2Thick Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 346) |
posted February 03, 2000 12:48 AM
Okay, so you can work harder at getting food at a better price, but that does not change the slow gain for naturals without favorable genetics. I believe you said, and I quote "�if you gained 12lbs of muscle in 8 weeks on 200mgs of primo per week then one of three things has happened- #1 your scale is broken #2 you were underweight to begin with #3 muscle and fat are the same to you." That would lead me to believe that gaining 6 pounds of muscle per month (even with gear) is hard to believe. If that is true then what kinds of gains would a natural lifter make without the gear, and would he be happy with it. Therefore, I believe I am chasing my tail in circles, so I will finish this post. By the way, I'm working on that Sugar Momma. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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tray renfro Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 229) |
posted February 03, 2000 12:58 AM
phiend right! i live with my uncle and hes been 130lb all his life, the guy eats like a horse, 4000 a day easy. hes farly active, but yet not a pound added. i do think you can have good genetic and be lazy. when im lazy(not very offten) of course i dont gain anything. but if i get serious i can add some weight. just my 2cents. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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macrophage69alpha Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 568) |
posted February 03, 2000 01:29 AM
hey I realize that sometimes progress in the gym can be depressing- I hit plateaus just like everybody else. but think about what you said 12lbs in 2 months on an very low dosage of one of the weakest anabolics- let say you extrapolate that over the year- say you take increasing amounts of gear- wow you just gained 72lbs of muscle- see what I am getting at people should be happy putting 12lbs of muscle on in a year. most people dont realize that even with lots of drugs, food, supplements and trainng it takes at least several years (usually a hell of a lot longer) to build even a semi pro physique. I have been lifting for about 12-13 years now. There were many months even years- where I made little or no progress- years- I mean there were some mitigating factors like MONO, too much drinking, girl friend induced laziness, and a pretty severe car accident- lost 5 pints o blood. But everybody has mitgating factors- just take it in stride- keep pounding the iron and learn goddammit- as much as the sum of what you or I will ever know is but a speck of that which it is possible to know. peace knowledge is power of course power is power too! just a little shout out to all you guys with the bench shirts. damn is it just me or are those uncomfortable hope you aren't to hairy.hehehe ------------------ IP: Logged |
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HARDBALL2 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 197) |
posted February 03, 2000 01:31 AM
HARDBALL2 CONFUSED...GOOD GENETICS IS GREAT FOR BB'R..RIGHT?GOOD APPETITE AND MAKING YOURSELF EAT A LOT OF CALORIES GOOD...RIGHT? I'M SPENT, GOING TO BED!!! GET HUGE AND DROP BOMBS!!!! IP: Logged |
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phiend Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 234) |
posted February 03, 2000 02:21 AM
Thank you Tray Renfro. At least someone sees the obvious. Your uncle is a good example, but definitely not an exception. He is like every other person that doesn't have the genes to be big. One also can't call a hargainer lazy, because there are many lazy people but they are usually fat. However, I consider fat being size. Hardgainers usually can't put on fat either. So saying that it is laziness is definitely wrong. Lazy doesn't equal small. IP: Logged |
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madbomber31 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 250) |
posted February 03, 2000 02:29 AM
FUN TIME!!!! i used to say i was a "hardgainer". thats shit. i just burned way too many calories playin ball. if you weigh 100 lbs and dont grow on 2000 cals, up it to 2500, then 3000, then 4000... sooner or later you will find what makes you gain weight... hardgainer is a cop out. eat more! its just that easy... genetics play a role in the shape of your muscle, and the bellies and all that good shit. and sure, they play a role in your metabolism, but so do soooo many other things. IP: Logged |
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phiend Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 234) |
posted February 03, 2000 02:48 AM
do you believe that some people gain more easily than others? if so, then the other people are hardgainers. actually, i should probably say "hardergainers" to make you guys happy, because apparently the word hardgainer isn't AC (anabolically correct) ------------------ IP: Logged |
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WarLobo Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 155) |
posted February 03, 2000 10:47 AM
I think we are spending to much effort concerning ourselves with the extremes of the human condition. True hardgainers are as prolific as true genetic super freaks. Both combined probably only make up 2% of the lifting community. For the rest of us, the whopping 98% who will never have the genetics, but who are not true hardgainers either, it all comes back to my original point. You have to do what it takes - and very often, most folks don't care to put in the effort. Argue the extremes if you will... But we all know the truth when we see it. It's not that hard to spot a person giving you a line. In my gym, as I'm sure you all can acknowledge, 90% of them do not CARE to go beyond there 100lbs lat pull downs. Do not wish to learn how to do squats. And in no way would ever do a dead lift. Do I give a rats ass? Nope, not any more. Let them live as they wish - not my concern. But I ain't going to listen to them whine about not being able to improve! My shoulders are to busy with presses to have someone crying on 'em. Now I'm never rude in the gym, I never turn away a good question, and will ALWAYS show a person good form should they ask. And sometimes when I see someone really trying, but not doing things right, I might even make a suggestion. Maybe I'm getting to be an old crotchety fart. But it's just this old saying that keeps going round in my head. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink....
Lobo IP: Logged |
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macrophage69alpha Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 568) |
posted February 03, 2000 02:57 PM
Ah Lobo the voice of reason I could not agree more. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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kpumpin Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 112) |
posted February 03, 2000 05:10 PM
phiend, If you notice in my ealier post i discussed that genetics do play a role...but every healthy person should be able to male gains on a consistent basis. You use this fellows uncle for not being able to gain weight on 4000 calories a day as an example. Ha! I guess that means he has no chance of ever gaining a pound. Unless he has a medical condition that doesnt allow the absorption of nutrients he can definately gain. If he isnt gaining on 4000 then maybe 5500 is appropriate. Yeah, i have helped people with bad genetics and they dont look like mr. o when they get bigger, but they get bigger. I also saw your post about you not liking peoples opinions. Well, Your initial post was an opinion on other peoples opinions. If you dont like opinions dont ask questions, cause 95% of what you read on the board comes from peoples own experiences and opinions. As for your first line of this post, I take offense to it. Maybe instead of being on the computer whining about weighing 180 pounds you should be eating to increase your bodyweight. Oh well, thats just my OPINION. kpumpin IP: Logged |
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Big Brother Val Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 208) |
posted February 03, 2000 06:56 PM
Well who would I be without being a part of the most controvercial post I've ever read on this board. From experience, I can say I know what it's like to have a hard time growing. In high school and shortly after I was 6' 2" and weighed 130 lbs. That's right 130!!! Imagine that. I looked like a fucking alien from Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind!!! Now, no inches taller and 100 lbs heavier, and only starting on the juice, I can say that you can get bigger naturally. It took me a few years... but I have gained almost 100 lbs. of muscle, while keeping my waist at 31 inches, with 18 inch arms. I know it's not the most impressive, but compared to the alien shit, I'm pretty proud. I look forward to the gains I will make now, it's given me a new fire to my workouts. I hear the "hard gainer's" cries for help, because I used to be asking for it myself. But stop your bitchin' and kick ass. No one held my hand, and I didn't roid my ass off to get here. Listen to the experienced guys. EAT. KICK ASS IN THE GYM. It won't happen over night, but it will happen. We just live in that drive through window, cell phone, instant pudding cup society where people want it and they want it now. Hard work and food is the key. I'm walking proof. IP: Logged |
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naprox Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 105) |
posted February 03, 2000 07:01 PM
I was a hardgainer until I started eating and training right. I used to weight 160 even though I had been working out religiously (that mean Bible curls!) for 18 months. My biggest problem was I was training too hard (no juice at the time) and I was not eating 6 times a day, and ensuring adequate protein intake. IP: Logged |
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