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Author Topic:   The Real Reason Why Black Men Are Over-Represented in Prisons
2Thick

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posted December 19, 2000 01:39 PM

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It is called Methodic Suspicion and Racialization of Crime

Methodic Suspicion is a police tactic that involves investigation of a marginal segment of society instead of the whole society for criminals. Basically it is investigating suspected groups (i.e. young black men) instead of suspicious behavior.

For example, police go the poor black neighborhoods and harass young black males no matter what they are doing. It also involves pulling over any cars with black males in them for minor offenses or for no reason at all.

Of course the police will find real criminals (and some innocent people wrongly accused) in any segment of society. The difference is that by constantly harassing a certain segment, it will seem like there are more criminals in that segment of society when there are just as many in any other sections of society which are not suspected (like middle class whites).

Racialization of crime ties into methodic suspicion because if you constantly check, recheck and harass a certain racial group, you will find criminals. The difference is that mostly minorities with little power are harassed and the WASPs and other Caucasians are left alone.

It is a sick viscous circle of lies that make regular people believe that black men commit most of the crimes when in fact it is false.

The police use methodic suspicion to put a disproportionate amount young black men in prison, then the bastards use the number of black men in prison which was caused by their actions in the first place to continue their racist, biased and unfair system of racialization and methodic suspicion

Think about these facts before you assume anything about young balck men and their treatment by the police.

[This message has been edited by 2Thick (edited December 19, 2000).]


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Mr H

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posted December 19, 2000 01:51 PM

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Very true.

If cops had harassed me and all my classmates in high school they would've found a ton of drug dealers and users that could've qualified for someone that could be arrested.

We were harassed more along the lines of "stay out of here and dont walk the streets" as opposed to "empty your pockets and turn your head and cough, big boy"-

Or was that at the doctors office?


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MP5

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posted December 19, 2000 02:13 PM

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I love it how everything we do in this world is supposedly racist. I think that maybe there is more crime in low income areas so the police probably patrol these more often, thus more arrests. I know where I am from they post the police logs in the paper and 90% of all arrests were mexicans. I suppose that is because they ignore crimes that get phoned in involving whites? Yeah right...

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Gord

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posted December 19, 2000 02:27 PM

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I'm with MP5.


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2Thick

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posted December 19, 2000 02:33 PM

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MP5,

Apparently you didn't understand the post. I guess the USA needs people like you to keep exploiting the lower strata of the population. Otherwise there would be public outcry (if most folks would pull themselves from their beer and cable TV).

I guess it�s not your fault. Not everyone is gifted with the wisdom to see beyond the propaganda.


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 19, 2000 02:35 PM

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2Thick,

That sounds very academic and bookish, though disconnected from the crime-fighting level. Lots of theory there.

--------------------------------------------
For example, police go the poor black neighborhoods and harass young black males no matter what they are doing. It also involves pulling over any cars with black males in them for minor offenses or for no reason at all.
--------------------------------------------

That statement is quite extreme. "No matter what they are doing?" I don't think so. Cops here in NY city are paranoid about what could happen if they take action so much that they under-react. Are mistakes made? Yes of course. But the constant microscope under which cops (in major cities) operate leaves them with their hands often figuratively tied.

--------------------------------------------
Of course the police will find real criminals (and some innocent people wrongly accused) in any segment of society. The difference is that by constantly harassing a certain segment, it will seem like there are more criminals in that segment of society when there are just as many in any other sections of society which are not suspected (like middle class whites).
---------------------------------------------

Could economics be the factor here more than race? Is it possible that there are fewer crimes among middle class PEOPLE (any race) than in poorer urban areas, which are often heavily black? Are you ignoring the role of poverty in this?

--------------------------------------------
Racialization of crime ties into methodic suspicion because if you constantly check, recheck and harass a certain racial group, you will find criminals. The difference is that mostly minorities with little power are harassed and the WASPs and other Caucasians are left alone
-------------------------------------------
Perhaps the term "economic-azation" of crime would fit better here.


--------------------------------------------
The police use methodic suspicion to put a disproportionate amount young black men in prison, then the bastards use the number of black men in prison which was caused by their actions in the first place to continue their racist, biased and unfair system of racialization and methodic suspicion
--------------------------------------------

Are you asserting that there is a process ingrained in training of police officers to propogate this behavior? Do you think government and police leaders are having meetings about how to perpetuate the system of black imprisonment?

Have you ever even met a cop?



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2Thick

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posted December 19, 2000 02:51 PM

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Matt,

This is highly theoretical because it is a basic framework of US society. It is not pretty but it is real.

I have met and known more law enforcement officers than I wish to recall.

Officers are just as susceptible to this fallacy as the normal person is so this process does not require explicit planning (but rather implicit guiding through societal cues).

If you think that cops under-react in New York or any other large city, then the media has you by the balls. Please don't underestimate the indiscriminate power of a police officer. You may not believe it because you are not of a marginal group but police can harass anyone for no reason. If you resist, they will just bust your balls so you are forced to comply.

BTW- I used young black males as an example. It is not all about race. Methodic suspicion could work with any marginal groups (including Mexicans, working class whites, any ethnicity or any religion).


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FreakMonster

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posted December 19, 2000 03:04 PM

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Why don't you go to www.officer.com and ask them these questions. There is a forum where you can ask a cop any question.


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BigWh1tey

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posted December 19, 2000 03:14 PM

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ive noticed that they are also over represented in the NBA and NFL ... which leaves me to one conclusions . Only slow black guys goto jail . Now the white criminals are faster you see , but have , in general , chosen a life of crime over the substantial contracts awarded to professional athletes , eg , white guys who run fast are criminals , and black guys who run slow are criminals , therefore , if you see a white guy in a jogging suit , steer clear .
My theory is backed up by the song "Damn It Feels Good to be a Gangster" : "real gangster ass niggers cant run fast" .

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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 19, 2000 03:31 PM

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First, it's nice to see you around again.

The indiscriminate power of police is real - after all, who is overseeing them? No one, pretty much. And they don't ever rat each other out. Have I been arrested before? Yes, more than once. Do I know the enormous frustration of feeling literally powerless? YES, and it really sucks. Fortunatly mine was on a small scale. I grant you that there are no controls on police power.

Is the situation you are describing real? yes. Equally real, though, is the media microscope under which NY cops are operating. Let me give you an example:

Certainly you remember the Diallo shooting. When that occured, there was massive protest against the actions of the cops, and rightfully so. There were all kinds of anti-Giuliani stuff out there also. A professor from Indiana University wrote that since Giuliani had become mayor, the amount of black on black homicides had decreased by percentage so much that there were 4,000 fewer black on black homicides than there would have been at the crime rate under the Dinkins administration. yes, statistics are flexible, but THESE facts are what the media conceals here in NY...NYPD is no friend of the press....and I don't take the media's word for too much.

Were the cops wrong? yes, but:

Assuming the impossibility of perfect law enforcement, where is the trade-off? I know that statistics on crime are easily manipulated, still...there has to be a baseline somewhere. So where is the balance to be struck between cops doing too much and cops doing not enough?

Now...next point:

I am not arguing that the situation you described is non-existent. It is real. But the cause is economic not racial. The economic system here is designed to keep people where they are. The wealthy stay wealthy, the poor stay poor, and the middle class run around like dogs with their middle class jobs and families and mortgages and college loans for the kids....staying middle class until one day they're dead, and they're still middle class.

I noticed that you responded to MP5 saying, "if most people would pull themselves way from beer and cable TV." True, most people don't take the time to see what is really going on. But THAT too is a symptom of the economic process that fixes people where they are.

Likewise, a result of the economic system in place is the over-representation of blacks in prison. Economics, not racism. the framework of the US you alluded to is an economic one, not a racial one.

[This message has been edited by MattTheSkywalker (edited December 19, 2000).]


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2Thick

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posted December 19, 2000 03:42 PM

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Matt,

You have made valid points. I see your point concerning econmics and we seem to be on the same basic wavelength (with this topic at least... .


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Engine9

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posted December 19, 2000 03:43 PM

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In my opinion poverty is the biggest cause of crime in this country, has nothing to do with race.


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COCKSTRONG

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posted December 19, 2000 03:58 PM

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OK 2thick u wanna know why blacks get put in jail all the time???? look where they live and whenever u hear a neighborhood thats a bad part of town, its where the black people live, what a coincidence. If talk about racism why is it ok for blacks to make fun of whites on TV and when one white guy says anthing about a black man they are hung at the stake. U make movies like ....White Men cant jump. I dont give a fuk. How would u guys like it if we made a movie called BLACK MEN CANT READ, if that happend there would be a riot. So i dont wanna hear anything about why black peeps go to prison. Cuz there is a big double standard goin on here. And thats fuked up if u ask me


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Zyclon Gaz

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posted December 19, 2000 04:05 PM

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COCKSTRONG

LET ME GUESS, YOU ARE 25 YEARS OLD AND LIVE WITH YOUR MOTHER IN A DOUBLE WIDE TRAILER. AND YOU ARE THE PROUND OWNER OF 5 DIFFERENT WIFE-BEATERS WITH THE YELLOW SWEAT STAINS. CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR GREAT POST!


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 19, 2000 05:08 PM

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2Thick,

Your insights are always perceptive and razor sharp. It's kind of sad that there isn't a public outcry about things like this. So powerful is the system that is in place.

Interesting to see where it will go.

Zyclon,

Take it easy on the 25 year olds.

[This message has been edited by MattTheSkywalker (edited December 19, 2000).]


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2Thick

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posted December 19, 2000 05:13 PM

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Matt,

Just a quick piece of advice...

Don't try to convince Law Enforcement Officers that Methodic Suspicion or Racialization of crime exists.

It is like telling a steroid user that gear doesn't work.


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luv2workout

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posted December 19, 2000 05:42 PM

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I agree and disagreee with some things you posted 2thick....In the city I live in, the cops rarely ever patrol the area b/c there is SO much crime and honestly they are too fat and lazy to do anything about it...I have heard many people comment on how the cops are almost scared nowdays to pull a group of "young black men" over for fear of their life...I do not consider myself a racist, but it is a fact that the "young black men" are responsible for more crimes...I have a black friend who will agree wholeheartedly with that also...

I am not a 25yr.old redneck that lives w/my parents in a trailor either, sorry...


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COCKSTRONG

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posted December 19, 2000 05:43 PM

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lol, so what if i am?????i got 7 wifebeaters not 5! hehe


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Puc

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posted December 19, 2000 05:44 PM

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So... um.... was it the chicken or the egg????

Puc

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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 19, 2000 05:54 PM

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Your argument begins with the supposition that because there are more black people in prison that they are over-represented. Just because there is more of a certain ethnicity in prison doesn't mean there's an unbalance of power. You're saying that if things were 'fair', that all groups would be equally represented numerically. You're argument is necessitated on the assumption that all people are prone to criminal activity equally and that the poulation holds even numbers of ethnic groups. This simply is not true.

Perhaps there are more black people in prison because numerically more black people commit crimes -- due to socio-economic factors and the fact that there are more black people in America than white people.

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2Thick

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posted December 19, 2000 06:20 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by ADRENALINEalley:
Perhaps there are more black people in prison because numerically more black people commit crimes -- due to socio-economic factors and the fact that there are more black people in America than white people.

There are far more poor Whites and Hispanics than poor blacks in America. Considering that you want to utilize socio-economic factors as the reason for crime then your assumptions fails to pass the test of logic.

How do you explain that?


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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 19, 2000 07:23 PM

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Can't see the forest for the trees...

Even if I'm off on this one point, which I'm not convinced I am, it doesn't change the fundamental truth of the argument I provided.

I was being lazy. There is probably a whole plethora of factors other than money. I would like to know how you come to the conclusion that there are more poor whites than poor blacks though.

Aside from this, it doesn't change the suppositions and the inherent flaws that your theory is based upon.

1. That because there are more black people in prison than other ethnic groups, that there MUST be an imbalance in representation. That because numerically all groups aren't represented equally that somehow something is unfair.

2. that all people are predisposed equally to crime (this is not true for WHATEVER reason -- economical, societal, etc.)

3. that numerically all ethnicities are represented equally in the American population. There are numerically more black people in america than white people, so it would follow that a greater number of crimes would be comitted by black people

You with me yet?

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2Thick

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posted December 19, 2000 07:37 PM

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According to simple demography and statistics, equal-bodied humans will be equally represented in criminality and such behaviors. Therefore there should be a proportionate amount of blacks, whites, Hispanics...(etc) in jails (respective of their percentage in the whole population)

You seem to subscribe to a theory that believes that some races or ethnicity are genetically or socio-culturally different (or inferior).

That is prejudiced and illogical. I can only hold a logical conversation so our exchange must end here.


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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 19, 2000 07:53 PM

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Wow. You should have worked for Clinton.

I never said or implied that ANY ethnicity was inferior to another. Nice try. Don't go there.

Culturally, however, there ARE differences -- both societal and economical -- between different ethnicities. You'd be blind or in a massive state of denial to think differently.

I'm merely suggesting that maybe the numbers are proportionate when you factor in population numbers and social and economic factors. Nothing you have said has convinced me that just because there are more blacks in prison that there is a conspiracy to put more black people in jail than any other ethnicity.

Yes, there are differences in races and probably one big root of the problem is that black people were originally brought here as slaves, and therefore many never had the same opportunities that a lot of their white counterparts did -- ultimately leading to societal and economic unbalances, that ultimately lead to more black people comitting crimes.

How many times have you even been to the U.S.?

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2Thick

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posted December 19, 2000 08:00 PM

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You don't seem to understand my argument.

The reason there are more black males in prison is because their segment of the population is more often and consistently searched for criminals. Therefore, it will seem as if there are more criminals in that segment compared to the whole population.

Their past has nothing to do with it (besides being a scapegoat). The real root of the problem is methodic suspicion. It would work for any marginal section of society that does not have the power to stop it.

FYI, I have [/b]lived[/b] in Europe, USA, Asia, and Canada. I have seen more than just the USA (or the west).


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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 19, 2000 08:06 PM

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I do understand your argument. I just think it is flawed for the above-mentioned reasons. That's OK though. We can agree to disagree.

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BIBLEISONYA

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posted December 19, 2000 08:37 PM

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It is very hard for some people to agree to disagree with one another, because they always feel their view point is the right one. I agree that there is a double standard for all minorities when it comes to derogatory remarks towards whites i.e the dumb redneck remarks made on this board. No one ever says a word about it but slang and derogatory remarks toward any minority would never last. There is a big difference between prejudice and racism, and all people have prejudices. I ask anyone who thinks there are a larger percentage of minorities in prisons, who are in jail because they were targeted for their ethnicity to ask themselves, Do they not belong there if they were convicted of a crime.


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 19, 2000 09:06 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by ADRENALINEalley:

There are numerically more black people in america than white people


What? More blacks than whites? In The US?! Uh...no. Not even all that close.

Blacks are about 1/7 of the US population. the state with the highest percentage of blacks is Mississippi, where they are roughly 35%.

Therefore the predominance of blacks in prison is even more peculiar given their vast UNDER-REPRESENTATION in the population.

I had to re-read your posts to be sure you said that. That's complete garbage. Blacks don't approach a majority in any one state, much less the nation.

ACCORDING TO THE U. S. CENSUS BUREAU, AS OF 2000 THERE ARE ROUGHLY 7 TIMES AS MANY WHITES AS BLACKS IN AMERICA.

You've gotta be kidding me. You should have worked for Gore.

[This message has been edited by MattTheSkywalker (edited December 19, 2000).]


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Sniperwolf

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posted December 19, 2000 10:47 PM

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I was waiting for someone to dispute that fact. I was sure there were far more white people in the states then black people. Thanks Matt for clearing that up. For someone living in the U.S that is a dreadfully bad mistake to make, especially when you were asking someone, that was disputing what you were saying, if they have ever lived in the U.S as though you were some kind of authoritarian on the place.


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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 19, 2000 10:59 PM

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And what percentage of the population is white? Latin American? American Indian? Other nationalities? I noticed you left those figures out.

1/7, or 14%, of the US population is a HUGE number. About 37,469,048 people conservatively (this number based on 1997 census bureau information).

Numbers aside, who are among the poorest ethnic groups in America? I bet ya it's not white people.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that there are more whites than blacks (which is in direct oppostion to what I remember -- which I'll admit I could be wrong on), I would still maintain that there are more poor black people (and other ethnicities for that matter) than white people. I'm not saying this makes any ethnic group better than another -- in fact, I think it's kind of sad. But my feelings don't change reality.

I think poverty breeds crime and I would maintain that proportionally, more people of ethnicites other than caucasian fall into the poverty group. Unfortunately a disproportionate number of the people in the poverty group are black, thus leading to the disproportionate number of blacks and hispanics in prison in relation to other ethnicities.


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[This message has been edited by ADRENALINEalley (edited December 19, 2000).]


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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 19, 2000 11:06 PM

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So Matt, you buy into the whole conspiracy theory huh?

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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 19, 2000 11:30 PM

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I just looked at the census you referred to Matt. The information is over 10 years old. They only do a census every 10 years.

It looks like I'm totally mistaken on the raw population numbers according to this data. My bad. (That said, there are however, significant numbers of other ethnicites other than white though)

My theory about poverty seems to hold true, even using 10-year old information. Here is an excerpt, using home ownership as a benchmark:


RACE AND HISPANIC ORIGIN OF HOUSEHOLDER
Occupied housing units......................................... 91,947,410
White....................................................... 76,880,105
Black....................................................... 9,976,161
Percent of occupied units................................ 10.8
American Indian, Eskimo, or Aleut........................... 591,372
Percent of occupied units................................ 0.6
Asian or Pacific Islander................................... 2,013,735
Percent of occupied units................................ 2.2
Other race.................................................. 2,486,037
Hispanic origin (of any race)............................... 6,001,718
Percent of occupied units................................ 6.5

You can see that far more white people own houses than any other ethnicity.

I would opine that this supports my theory that less people in the white group are poor than other groups, hence less representation in prisons because fewer are in a poverty situation proportionately. I don't think it's a conspiracy to lock up more black people or hispanics or anybody else over any other group.

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KODIAK99

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posted December 19, 2000 11:53 PM

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I hate these numbers I don't trust any of them.

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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 20, 2000 12:04 AM

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quote:
Originally posted by ADRENALINEalley:
Can't see the forest for the trees...

1. That because there are more black people in prison than other ethnic groups, that there MUST be an imbalance in representation. That because numerically all groups aren't represented equally that somehow something is unfair.

2. that all people are predisposed equally to crime (this is not true for WHATEVER reason -- economical, societal, etc.)

3. that numerically all ethnicities are represented equally in the American population. There are numerically more black people in america than white people, so it would follow that a greater number of crimes would be comitted by black people


The abundance of blacks in prison is by DEFINITION an imbalance in representation. That's what imbalance is - one group is too much or too little..so either blacks are committing the overwhelming majority of the crime, or something is unfair. Blacks are NOT committing the overwhelming majority of crime, so something is certianly unfair.

"Predisposed" generally means that there is a gentic makeup which leads one to acta certain way. The economic and societal factors that you mention are environmental, not presuppositions.

The claim about more blacks than whites is categorically false.

[This message has been edited by MattTheSkywalker (edited December 20, 2000).]


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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 20, 2000 12:09 AM

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Read the newer stuff. My thinking and facts got a little clearer.

Answer my question though, do you think there is a conspiracy to put a disproportionate number of black people into prison?

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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 20, 2000 12:16 AM

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quote:
Originally posted by MattTheSkywalker:
so something is certianly unfair.

Never mind, I guess you do think there is a conspiracy.

Yes, I had some of my numbers screwed up, but I still don't think there is some evil plot to jail more black people or hispanics, etc. I fall back on poverty, not ethnicity. I think people in poverty conditions are more disposed to committing crime and that a disproportionate number of the poverty stricken in the U.S. are non-white. Therefore, a disproportionate number of people in prison are non-white.

Pick apart the other stuff, but this is what I'm trying to say.

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Sniperwolf

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posted December 20, 2000 12:22 AM

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For those figures on house ownership to have any real meaning to back up your statements you need to include in brackets along with those numbers given what percententage of the population those figures represent. If those figures could also be of people over 30 years old (as they are more likely to be in a position to buy a house) they would have even more meaning.
But figure aside I agree with you that the reason why crime is high among black people is poverty as opposed to any great conspiracy by the police.


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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 20, 2000 12:27 AM

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Sniper -- this is OT -- I am so used to seeing Tokyo as 'Ttokkyo' that I keep doing a double take every time I see you post... lol!

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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 20, 2000 12:39 AM

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I stated way up in this thread that the real factor is economics. The racial disparity is merely a symptom of an economic disparity. Law enforcement and punishment have become "economic-ized" rather than "racialized".

I do not think there is a conspiracy to incarcerate the poor. What there IS, though, is a self perpetuating system in place. An economic system, that is. I want to clarify - when idisucss the occurrences below, I am not claiming that there are old men in suits implementing policies...rather that a system has grown around the policies that were implmeneted. I am not a conspiracy theorist.

This is a mere outline. I could write 50 pages on this now. If you want to email me I will discuss it with you if you're interested.

Oue economic system implicitly states that you will generally remain in the socio-economic level where you grew up. The poor stay poor - is it a coincidence that fewer poor kids can go to college? Are they stupider? Nope. Is it a coincidence that college tuition costs 20-30K a year? Nope. Colleges can charge outrageous amounts because middle class families can borrow exactly that much....so the poor lose out and stay poor.

The middle class stays middle class because families are worried about their children "succeeding", so they re-finance the house to send their kids to school, only to see their kids graduate with a mountain of debt and a 31K a year job. The kids are right down the path to middle class,a dn the parents can rest assured that their estates will just cover the debt they incurred. But the kids aren't bitching, because suddenly they have "all this money" - 31K a year is a ton to someone who was eating spaghetti-o's in college......but realistically 31K is nothing. Sure, there will be promotions and raises, but even if he gets to 100K or more, (and most don't) there is still the home, the mortgage, etc and soon enough, the kids' college tuition. The cycle continues.

Serious money starts at the 200K-250K a year level. Then you can have some real freedom. 100K with a family won't cut it, not here in NY anyway.

And the wealthy stay wealthy because it's easy to make money when you already have it.

Governments aren't worried about the poor. They need not be - they don't have any resources. There will be no poor man's rebellion. When a poor man is accused of a crime, can he afford a defense? No. Off to jail they go. If you don't have the money, punishments get worse. Here in Ny they were actually ticketing homeless people for vagrancy, then arresting them when they couldn't pay the ticket. Hmmm....

Governments implicitly allow the wealthy almost anything. They don't want to alienate too many of them. Wealthy have access to politicians - they are the large donors and favors are repaid.

It is the middle class which befuddles our system. They don't have the money to acess politicians and policy makers, but as a group they are a formidable entity. If a revolution were to start, it will come from the middle class. As a group, they could afford it, (where as poor could not) and acting as a group, they are a formidable number. So the government appeases the middle class (again, implicitly), by campaigning to them, though they don't care, and the system allows some to move on to the ranks of the wealthy. That's the American Dream that is foisted upon us.

So the system ignores the poor, gives the wealthy what they want, and feeds the middle class the American Bullshit dream. Middle classers are given 500 cable channels, celebrities to admire, all kinds of other gadghets and toys etc. to keep them occupied and not thinking about how screwed they are getting.

It's not a conspiracy. It's a powerful system deeply entrenched.


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ADRENALINEalley

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posted December 20, 2000 12:45 AM

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I agree with much of what you wrote. Overall, well said. We're not that far apart after all.

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Natymike

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posted December 20, 2000 02:17 AM

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quote:
And what percentage of the population is white? Latin American? American Indian? Other nationalities? I noticed you left those figures out.

US population
White--71%
Black--13%
Hispanic-10%
other----6%

Prison population
White-----33%
Black-----48%
Hispanic--18%
other-----1%

these are current.


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 20, 2000 12:54 PM

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Adrenaline -

No we really are NOT far apart at all....one thing I kind of left out, although it is self evident is that the percentage of Americans earning over 200K is miniscule....hence the "bullshit" of the American dream which is presented to teh middle class.


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Mr. Roarke

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posted December 20, 2000 01:09 PM

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American economic system (generally a free market) is great if government doesn't get involved. Welfare keeps the poor where they are. Population in jail I believe is represented that way due to economic status as opposed to racial.

The great thing about this country is that even the majority of the "poor" have indoor plumming, air conditioning, and a TV. It is true that it may not be as easy for someone who is poor to succeed and live the "american dream", but at least they still have the opportunity to do so unlike what you find in communist countries like China, North Korea, former Soviet Union.

Our system isn't perfect but it is the best one around. It would be better if the government let it work instead of throwing out stifling regulations.

No one said life is fair. Some people are born smarter, some stronger, some more wealthy, some more athletic, some more motivated. Everyone deals with adversity and if you want it bad enough - then America is the only (well not only, but it would be your best bet!) place you can make the dream come true.

I completely agree with Adrenaline here. Correlation DOES NOT neccessarily mean Causation.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Roarke (edited December 20, 2000).]


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 20, 2000 01:23 PM

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Roarke,

You are using the argument that "it's better here than somewhere else" to excuse the problems that are here.

It's logically flawed. What goes on elsewhere is irrelevant. And just because this may be the best system, should we not seek to address the problems that exist?

You're buying into the system if you soothe yourself with the "it's worse somewhere else" garbage. It isn't pretty, but that's what you're doing.

It is true that we are born with different abilities and intelligence and gifts, etc...absolutely true. I am not claiming that the ideal scenario is the same success for everyone.

It is likewise true that our system could improve with minimal government intervention, HOWEVER, it is unwise to think that total hands-off policymaking would be advantageous for most people. In fact, that would separate the wealthy from the poor more quickly and eliminate the middle class entirely.

The economics point has already been made. Please attempt to refrain from introducing emotional arguments - "it's better here than China" into a logical discussion.

Later


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special_bill

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posted December 20, 2000 01:36 PM

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matt, you should compile your thoughts into a book...very original viewpoint on the stagnation of the middle class...

this thread has been a very good read...


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Mr. Roarke

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posted December 20, 2000 01:37 PM

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Very well Matt. You are right there are problems here and whether or not we have it better than other countries is irrelevant to THIS arguement. I strike that from the records.

But frankly I disagree with your assertion that Hands off government is not the best method for the country. Has it ever been tried - ANYWHERE? No, so we have never seen it in practice. We can only go by assumptions that are calculated. To me the less degree of gov intervention the better off the country. It unleashes the power of the people.

Everything done by the government requires force. Taxation is a form of stealing no matter how you break it down. Who is to decide how much to steal from certain "wealthy" people to give to certain "poor" people? That is the question...Who is to decide? You? Me? Joe Blow? Everyone will have a different idea. Keep in mind if you give gov officials the "foot in the door" they will continue to expand their power.

Example: Income tax (unconstitutional) was put in at 1% to cover for WWI expenditures and was supposed to be a temporary measure. Over the past 86 years it has grown steadily to an average of 40% for many people. Some temporary measure. True can be said about many other government schemes as well.

I try not to get emotional, but sometimes I cannot help it. I truly do love my freedom and it gets me pissed when government takes it away. I will try harder to keep it out of discussions being a rational person.


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Formula

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posted December 20, 2000 01:51 PM

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Hmm maybe there are more blacks in jail cause they commited more crimes? I have to agree with Matt's arguement concerning economic factors. I remember ABC did a segment a few year ago related to this topic. I remember what one black kid said "Why I'm I going to work at Burger King when I could make $500 a day selling crack?" There was a black business man who had come from that neighborhood and started his own business. He had to clean fucking toilets to put himself throught school. Point is if you do the crime then do the time.


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 20, 2000 02:50 PM

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S-Bill,

The book is under way.

Roarke, I love my freedom as much as you do. I'm a Army veteran - you don't need to remind me that freedoms are being eroded and that government is largely responsible for it. And I too get pretty pissed off about it.

Total hands off of business governing is not the answer. Regulation should be minimal but not non-existent. One example of unchecked corporate growth is Rockefeller's Standard Oil in the late 1800's...by allowing fully unchecked growth, there are price fixing issues, etc....and it is easy for a powerful corporation to destroy competitors unscrupulously, and in ways that do not benefit consumers.

Here is an abstract example: Let's say I open a store selling product X. Then a large corporation buys the land next to me, and opens a store next to mine selling the same stuff, except they sell it for 1/10 as much. Now I - the small store owner - get screwed, because I have people to pay, costs to meet, and I can't match the corporation's prices. But it doesn't matter to the corporation if they lose money on their stuff - they have other sources of revenue.
The ultimate consequence of this is that I go out of business, and the store that replaced me jacks up prices. Such a practice is unfair competiton, because teh corporation is selling things at a loss just to put me away, and things like that need to be kept in check.

OK - that was an abstraction, but do you have any idea how many times Microsoft has done this? A new technology will emerge, and Microsoft will copy it and sell it at a loss to drive the competiton away. This hurts consumers, becasuse there is no one competing with them. So they can keep force feeding us mediocre operation systems and mandatory upgrades. Is Windows 98 really that much better than Windows 95? No. And Windows 2000M.E. is shit. But by a new computer and there it is......forced on to consumers by Microsoft. The best a start-up could hope for was an acquisition, on Microsoft's terms.

I am not advocating the breakup of Microsoft. they have contributed more to the standardization effort than any other technology company. The computer is what it is today because of them. What I do advocate is more vigilance in this sector by the Justice Department.

This is common. Now another example that is very relevant to all of us is the Internet sector. AOL just bought Time Warner. Why? because Time Warner is the largest provider of cable services in the US. Not that long ago, AT&T bought TCI, because TCI is the second largest cable provider. Why the scrameble to buy these compnaies? It's all about high speed Internet. The phone companies are the typical Internet Service prooviders, if you dial up, which most people do. The max you can get from the phone company on a regular line is 56kbps.

Cable companies offer faster connections. If people start getting faster Internet, tehy won't use the phone so much - it;s already possible to make phione calls on the Internet. But 56kbps doesn't support it that well, so it is in the interests of the phone companies to keep Internet access slow, in order to make themselves profitable.

Phone companies offer faster service (T1 and T3) but it is prohibitively expensive for the home user. However, it is very cheap to the phone company. This is simple price fixing and holding back technology.

Cable companies also have an inherent reason to slow the Internet.....after all, if you can start watching movies over the Net....why get all those channels?

Competiton leads to improved product and lower costs. Unchecked corporate power leads to price fixing and the abundance of mediocrity which consumers have no choice but to accept.


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Mr. Roarke

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posted December 20, 2000 03:25 PM

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Matt,

First off I respect the fact that you are an Army Vet and help keep my freedoms from outside enemies (or did in some capacity at one point).

I understand your price fixing argument - it is against Monopolies. I believe the only true monopolies are the government mandated variety. Local Cable companies, Public transport (you should see the system in DC- it is bad) etc.

Example: Do you remember when IBM was the corporate giant in the computer industry much as Microsoft is now? Im sure you do. Well the gov spent millions of tax payer dollars to find a way to say IBM was a monopoly (price fixing is a theoretical quality of a monopoly). They found no evidence. Do you know what did IBM in? 2 guys working out of the basement of their house who introduced Apple. Corporations that get too big become bogged down with Red Tape and are unable to respond to consumer demand as opposed to a smaller company that is in touch with consumers. That is the reason they go down. I believe you to be from the Chicago School of economics much along the lines of Milton Freidman where I am a thouroughly devot Austrian who follows Hayek and Mises.

But even if we could have regulations to help ..would they really do that? The government would enforce them and we'd (well we do) have to give them plenty of power to do so. This will lead to corruption and has.

I believe Rockefeller, Carnegie and even Mr.Burns on the Simpsons get a bad rap. Bill Gates is the new demon. These people are responsible (outside of Burns) for increasing our standard of living thru innovation and yet we demonize them? Once I read Atlas Shrugged I realized that today we make Demons out of our saviors. The gov convinces us they are demons so they can steal some of the possessions that these great men have toiled to amass.

Exerpt:

"The trick..is to turn everyone into criminals by declaring so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on the guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged"
The industrialist, Hank Reardon, is lectured by the power-drunk
government bureaucrat, Dr. Ferris, about how government uses
the proliferation of law and regulation to rule the innocent.


IF YOU LISTEN, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO HEAR JOEL KLEIN REPEATING THESE WORDS TO BILL GATES.


The main thing here is that business uses economic power to strengthen its position while everything the government does (including enforcing Anti-Trust) is back with a gun. IMO this is a big difference.

But I really do not believe we are that far apart in our thinking.


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 20, 2000 03:37 PM

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I don't think we're far apart either.

I specifically made an effort to point out that Bill Gates and Microsoft have made monumental contributions to modern computer and network technology. Without a doubt, Microsoft has been overwhelmingly good for consumers.

Breaking them up is a bad idea. if they are broken up, the likeliest consequence is several software companies whose devices are incompatible, which would throw us into the pre-Microsoft dark ages of proprietary software.

But when companies get too large, they gain so much momentum that it is hard to slow them down. The "red tape bogging down" becomes institutional and IBM in the 1980s was a good example. Microsoft is nearing that point. However, the vastness of Internet applications (still to be developed) could keep them in check.

With Microsoft and with cable/phone companies, there is no "band-aid" that the governemnt can apply. It owuld require systemic overhaul to rectify many of the problems here.

Also, excellent point about the income tax. It was found unconstitutional by the Supreme Court during the Civil War, and WAS meant to be temporary.

It's ridculous - and I appreciate your contributions here. Is that "Roark" as in Howard Roark from "The Fountainhead"? Just curious.


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Mr. Roarke

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posted December 20, 2000 03:47 PM

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It is refreshing to see someone who understands the gov is not the answer to all problems. Again, we can agree to disagree on the monopoly thing - but there are indeed many other things the gov does that we probably both would agree that they should not be involved in.

Yes, to the naked eye my name may be misconstrued as the dude from Fantasy Island, but it is in fact derived from the Fountainhead. Good call.


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2Thick

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posted December 20, 2000 05:12 PM

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You guys keep saying that it is economic and not racial or ethnic but I will say with 100% certainty that there are far more poor whites than blacks in America.

Why then would there be more blacks than whites in the prison system.

Your view is highly illogical and unrealistically placing the blame on socio-economic reasons and saying that racism does not exist.

Excuse my French, but that is bullshit!!


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 20, 2000 06:56 PM

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2thick,

Well, we kind of got away from the topic...but back to it....yes there are definitely more poor whites than blacks in the US. I do not dispute that.

Poor blacks are highly concentrated in cities. Yes, there are many poor whites in cities also, but as a percentage, the number of poor whites in cities is less than the percentage of poor blacks in cities.

This is signficant because where the population is dense (urban) it becomes easier to aggressively patrol (over-patrol as you say) and "find" criminals. Cities have more people and more cops, bigger departments, more "crime fighting" resources.

The rural poor areas do not have these kinds of police departments. Are there cops there? Few - it's a county police "force" of 8 guys max. A far cry from the 40,000 on the NYPD.

Rural areas have plenty of crime, but, to paraphrase a cliche, is a crime really a crime if no cop is around to make an arrest?

The number poor blacks that live in urban areas, comprise a greater percentage of the black population, than the number of poor whites in urban areas comprise of the white population.

More blacks (% wise) around more cops = more blacks in jail.


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LivinLarger

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posted December 20, 2000 07:07 PM

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quote:
The reason there are more black males in prison is because their segment of the population is more often and consistently searched for criminals. Therefore, it will seem as if there are more criminals in that segment compared to the whole population.

Why do you think this happens?

Because there are more criminals there, or because the police officers are racist and don't like people just because of the color of their skin?



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2Thick

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posted December 20, 2000 08:51 PM

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Matt,

That is a good point but there are also many black people living in rural areas especially in the US South.

***********
I was thinking about the static I have received in regards to this theory and suddenly realized the reason why. In order to believe in the theory, you must admit that you have been fooled and that humans are inherently evil. I have learned this lesson the hard way (through life experience). Some people will be lucky enough to never learn that lesson.


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2Thick

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posted December 20, 2000 08:58 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by LivinLarger:
Why do you think this happens?

Because there are more criminals there, or because the police officers are racist and don't like people just because of the color of their skin?


The police officers honestly believe that there are more criminals in the margins of society so they pursue them aggressively. The police are victims of the system too.



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MattTheSkywalker

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posted December 20, 2000 09:02 PM

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2Thick,

I agree with your theory - I would just substitute "economic" for "racial". I would also grant that there are considerable racial prejudices which add fuel to the fire.

****************************************

I would contest your claim about people being inherently evil. Rather, I would say that people almost invariably take the path of least resisitance. That is, they believe what they read in the paper, or see on TV, or whatever. Just tel a person something, especially if you have the media's (undeserved) credibility...and the believe it and act on it.

However, people like to believe they are informed and influential, and important, and that their opinions matter. This is why they side with the "popular" opinions...for example they jump on the Bush or Gore bandwagons because they believe some political spin....although they are very similar and thought and deed...most people like to be with others who agree, so they dare not try to go out on their own with their own ideas.

I wouldn't say people are evil, but they are easily led toward whatever a powerful force is leading them.

Your theory is met with discontent because it forces people to admit they have been accepting whatever the system is feeding them - and they ar NOT being individuals, though they fancy themselves that way.


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