BUT THIS YEAR, MY PROTEIN WASNT QUITE AS HIGH BUT STILL OVER THE RDA (AS IF THAT MEANS SHIT). BUT I GAINED 20+ LBS IN A 4-5 WEEK LONG, LOW LEVEL CYCLE. MY PROTEIN WAS 1.25 GRAMS PER LB... I JUST COULDNT EAT AS MUCH AS BEFORE (NO EQ AND LITTLE DBOL)...

Now, here's the ringer -- the deep, dark secret that I've been afraid to admit is I HAVEN'T HAD A PROTEIN SHAKE IN 3 MONTHS! And, I'm doing just fine! Kooky huh?

When I cycle again, I will probably bump levels back up, but I'm not sure there is a valid reason to do so other than psychological reasons.

Excellent question.

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- If you want 1 year of prosperity, grow grain. If you want 10 years of prosperity, grow trees. If you want 100 years of prosperity, grow people. -

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I lowered the intake to just 200 grams per day, which wasn't hard to get. My BP went down drastically, my strength didn't go down, and my weight gradually increased comensurate with time and training.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

- Kwai-Chang Caine

So really, it isnt so cut and dry. There is a bigger picture to be considered, rather than just looking at protien...

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It takes two to lie, Marge. One to lie and one to believe it.

s0urjerk

MB - eating 1.25g per lb of weight is a hell of a lot of protein. You weren't exactly skimping.

People's assimiliaton rates do not vary all that much (independent of drugs). yes, they can vary, but not as much as you might think.

Protein can and perhaps should be cycled. The body after a while gets accustomed to your diet, just as it does your training routine. So changing it up is always good.

if you are on 1.5g/lb weight, dropping it slowly will teach the body to do more with less. After all, protein is used to repair damaged muscle tissue, and the body will do that regardless of how much protein it gets. (within reason)

After a low period, increasing it slowly helps also. The low intake times teach the body how to use protein more efficiently, so increasing it allows efficient use of MORE protein.

When I decided to get serious in to lifting I started eating alot more protein.
And my body looks better from lifting and eating protein; than running and eating high carbs. I had alot more fat on my body!

just my .02 cents!!

I worked with John Parrillo and kind of got a feel for the ins and outs of nutrition (even if I dont always follow them ). Nutrition is almost always the factor that holds people back.
Ive trained and trained with many people, and they all bitched about plateaus and not making gains. I'd tell them to write down everything they eat for a couple of days and we'll look it over.
Eveyone of them assured me they eat LOADS of food. They eat 4,5,6 times a day and are sure they eat plenty. Seldom did I find a person who actually ended up eating much over 2,000 calories a day, no ne has ever done more than approach 2,800 calories.

You have to take a particular persons metabolism into account. Some people (especilly people under 21) can eat anything they want and not gain a bit of fat. Some people gain fat very easily. FOr those people a diet higher in protien than carbs is wiser (along with keeping all carbs complex and fiborous).

But yeah, its a lot of supplement company hype, too. But supplements are just that, SUPPLEMENTS which means "in addition to". They should be extras, not the base of your diet.

I personally get my own protien powders made. I have MRP's made for my specific needs and requirements.

Casein has often been the overlooked protein through the years, often brushed aside by the supposedly superior whey isolates. That is most unfortunate, because, as I'm about to show you, this feisty underdog just may be the best protein by far! Let's check out the data that supports this idea.

The first study consisted of sixteen young, healthy subjects (average age 24) who were given either a protein drink containing casein or whey. They then measured the rates of protein synthesis and breakdown. What happened? In the subjects consuming casein, whole body protein breakdown was progressively inhibited for 300 minutes by 34%. Whey, on the other hand, had no effect. Wham! Whey takes a hard left and is driven into the ropes!

However, in whey's favor, it did stimulate protein synthesis by 68%, whereas casein stimulated it by only 31%. So, whey must have caused the greater protein balance, right? Nope. In fact, although whey did increase protein synthesis to a higher extent, this effect didn't last long. You see, when researchers measured synthesis rates at 100 minutes, the above was indeed true. However, when they measured the rates again at 300 minutes, synthesis rates returned to baseline levels with whey, but they were still significantly elevated with casein!

Whey also caused a significant increase in oxidation of protein. For those of you who believe that your body becomes more efficient at breaking down protein when oxidation increases (and I, for one, don't), you might want to reconsider your choice of using whey, or at least reconsider taking it by itself.(1)

So, let's recap the main points learned from this study. Number one, casein ingestion results in a greater deposition of protein than whey. In other words, more muscle! Also, after whey protein is ingested, the rate of protein synthesis increases quickly and to a high degree, but not for a long period of time. It causes an increase in protein synthesis and oxidation, but no change in protein breakdown.

In comparison, casein slightly increases protein synthesis and inhibits breakdown to an extreme degree while causing just a slight increase in oxidation. The authors also gave a reason as to why these results occurred. They concluded that since casein clots in the stomach to form a sort of gel, it causes a slow, but prolonged release of amino acids into the bloodstream, thereby increasing synthesis slightly and inhibiting breakdown to a large degree. Whey protein, however, is rapidly emptied from the stomach causing large amounts of amino acids to be released. This results in a large and swift increase in synthesis and oxidation, but no change in breakdown.

Here's another study in casein's favor. This one was a randomized, twelve week study using either whey in a calorie restricted diet with resistance training (whey group) or casein in a calorie restricted diet with resistance training (casein group). There was also one group receiving nothing, but still training and dieting (diet only group).

Researchers used 11 normal, healthy men who all had weight training experience for each protein group along with 10 guys in the "diet only" group. The average age was 34. They then measured body fat, lean body mass, and strength during weeks 4, 8, and 12. After 4 weeks, it was noted that fat mass had decreased in all groups; however, lean mass and strength gains were only significantly increased in the casein group. After 12 weeks, lean mass gains were doubled and fat loss increased 50% in the casein versus whey protein group!(2) Ouch, whey falls to the mat and gets a standing eight count! He's looking shaky and his corner men are looking around for the white towel!

But the fight's not over. The casein group also increased muscle strength in all three exercises (chest press, shoulder press, and leg extension) more rapidly and to a greater degree than the whey group, with a 59% increase in strength for the casein group and only a 28% increase for whey. Bam! Whey takes a stiff uppercut to the chin!

At the end of the study, the casein group lost 7.0 kilos or 15.4 lbs of fat while gaining 4.1 kilos or 9.02 lbs of muscle on average! All the while, the whey group only lost 4.2 kilos or 9.24 lbs of fat while gaining 2.0 kilos or 4.4 lbs of muscle. The "diet only" group lost 2.5 kilos or 5.5 lbs of fat while gaining 0.4 kilos or .88 lbs of muscle. At this point, whey is bleeding freely and his left eye is almost swollen shut.

Still not convinced, Mr. Cynical Sid, of casein's weight advantage and longer reach? Maybe I should let you know about a study where burn patients (who demonstrate extremely high metabolisms and protein oxidation rates) were given a casein supplement of 70-75 grams a day combined with a nutrition and exercise program. The patients increased lean mass twice as fast as another group using the same program but using 75 grams of whey instead.(3) I may be going out on a limb here, but if these patients were able to gain more muscle using casein than whey, in spite of extremely high metabolisms, maybe casein should be the choice protein for the "hypertrophy challenged" guys with metabolisms equivalent to my sexual performance times. (In other words, extremely fast.)

Oh yes, and for you health conscious guys, casein also has some beneficial effects. (Honestly, the following benefits don't intrigue me that much since I'm 19 years old and therefore, seven feet tall and bullet proof, but it's nice to know casein is also good for me in the long run.) Casein has been shown to increase HDL levels,(2, 3) inhibit platelet aggregation, and even has some opioid like peptides, which could help to ease pain of muscles and joints.(4,5,6,7) Casein also has a high ratio of tyrosine/trytptophan, about 5 to 1, so it won't make you feel groggy. Plus, it has the highest amount of glutamine out of all the most commonly consumed proteins.

So, if I had to give casein a fight profile, it would look like this: 250 lb, 4% body fat and one mean bastard. Not only will casein kick Mr. Catabolic's ass, he keeps doing it for hours at a time! He enjoys kicking ass! To me, casein is the ultimate warrior, Mike Tyson meets Royce Gracie with a little Shaft thrown in to get the attitude right. But, could we tweak casein a little and get even more benefits? Read on and see for yourself.

Whey Concentrate: The Tired Former Champ

After all that bragging about casein and dogging on whey, I bet you think I'm really down on whey and avoid it like Don King avoids a hair brush. Not really. In terms of muscle building and fat loss, there's only one thing missing that's keeping whey from climbing the ranks and winning the title bout: It doesn't provide any inhibition of protein breakdown.(1)

Is there a solution to this problem? Sure, you can either consume your whey supplement every two hours in order to keep amino acid levels elevated or you could slow its absorption by either eating some carbs and fat with it. Combining it with casein would also be a viable solution. It's the rate of absorption that primarily determines the amount of lean tissue accrued. The above studies demonstrate that even though whey is a higher quality protein with a Biological Value of 104, it's absorbed too rapidly, consequently, casein (with a BV of 77) is able to outperform whey because of it's slow rate of absorption.

The logical solution would be to combine the high BV of whey with the slow absorption rate of casein. This cross breeding, so to speak, would produce the most potent protein supplement around. Plus, casein's high glutamine content would make up for whey's lower levels.

Whey also has some very potent immunological benefits as well as other healthy effects. It's been shown to increase HDL, decrease triglycerides, and decrease blood pressure in healthy men.(8) Not only that, but it's been shown to increase glutathione concentrations as well.(9)

So, the fight card for whey concentrate would look like this: 210 lbs at 6% bodyfat, kicks Mr. Catabolic's ass a lot at first, but then fizzles out and quits in the later rounds. If, however, he unites with casein, they're an unstoppable tag team from hell.

Whey Isolate: Hollywood Pretty Boy

The isolated version of whey isn't any better in terms of muscle growth or fat loss than his twin bro concentrate. Proponents of isolate claim that it has more protein per gram. Well, I'd hope so, considering the fact that it's "isolated"! So, what's the advantage exactly? Not having to take out as many scoops? The quality is the same, but the price sure as hell isn't.

So, my profile for isolate goes as follows: He's identical to whey concentrate, but wears fancy trunks and expensive leather gloves. In other words, he's a pretty boy who spends more money, yet produces about the same ass kicking results on Mr. Catabolism!

1) Boirie Y, et al. "Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion." Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14930-5.

2) Demling RH, DeSanti L. "Effect of hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers." Ann Nutr Metab 2000;44(1):21-9

3) Demling RH, DeSanti L. "Increased protein intake during the recovery phase after severe burns increases body weight gain and muscle function." J. Burn Care Rehabil 1998;19:161-168.

4) Madani S, et al. "Dietary protein level and origin (casein and highly purified soybean protein) affect hepatic storage, plasma lipid transport, and antioxidative defense status in the rat." Nutrition 2000 May;16(5):368-75.

5) Brantl V, et al. Novel opioid peptides derived from casein (B-casomorphin). Physiol Chem 1979;360:1211-1216.

6) Chabance B, et al. "Casein peptide release and passage to the blood in humans during digestion of milk or yogurt." Biochimie 1998 Feb;80(2):155-65.

7) Fukagawa Y, et al. "Effects of dietary proteins on analgesic activity of tolerance and physical dependence on morphine in rats." Arukoru Kenkyuto Yakubutsu Ison 1992 Jun;27(3):266-75.

8) Kawase M, et al. "Effect of administration of fermented milk containing whey protein concentrate to rats and healthy men on serum lipids and blood pressure." J Dairy Sci 2000 Feb;83(2):255-63

9) Bounons G, et al. "The influence of dietary whey protein on tissue glutathione and the diseases of aging." Clin Invest Med 1989 Dec;12(6):343-9.

10) Schadereit R, et al. "Whole body protein turnover of growing rats in response to different dietary proteins-soy protein or casein." Arch Tierernahr 1999;52(4):311-21.

11) Klein M, et al. "Energy metabolism and thyroid hormone levels of growing rats in response to different dietary proteins-soy or casein." Arch Tierernahr 2000;53(2):99-125.

12) Nagata C, et al. "Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men." Nutr Cancer 2000;36(1):14-8.

13) Nilausea K, Meinertz H. "Lipoprotein(a) and dietary proteins: Casein lowers lipoprotein (a) concentrations as compared with soy protein." Am J Clin Nutr 1999 Mar;69(3):419-25.

Designer Protien has similar studies touting the evils of casein and how it clots in the stomach and may even lead to tumors!!!

Bullshit of course, but Im just saying that people will not only "adjust" results to their favor, they will go as far as to "adjust" the test to give them the desired results!
Case in pointis testing casien versus whey at the 300 minute mark. Whey is clear of the system in around 45 minutes, so the test was in no way fair!
Its like saying testosterone enanthate is better than proprionate because 2 weeks after a shot, you have enanthate in you but NO PROPRIONATE! (obviously because of half-life and deesterification).

I stated as much as the fact that casien causes far better anti catabolic effects, but anticatabolic is NOT the same as anabolic!!!!!!!!!! Whey is superior for anabolism and like I said, a combination of the two is the key.

As for the claim the article makes of:

"even though whey is a higher quality protein with a Biological Value of 104, it's absorbed too rapidly, consequently, casein (with a BV of 77) is able to outperform whey because of it's slow rate of absorption"

... well, "100" is the high end baseline for biological value, so 104 is just more marketing bullshit, and casein only outpreforms whey in anticatabolic action. Its slow absorption is what stops it from being efficient at anabolism!

But since the study was tailored to casien (by testing ONLY the inhibition of protien breakdown) my point of "adjusting" tests and results is proven.

The thing that needs to be understood is that different protiens are for different purposes and cannot be used the same way.

Casein is good before bed when the slow absorption aids in anticatabolism during sleep (or when meal frequency may be an issue).

Whey is good post workout when the quick burst of anabolic protien is needed. But thinking one serving post workout keeps you set for the rest of the day is nuts. If your next meal isnt for 3 hours, then another dose of whey is needed (or 2).

Ideally a combibnation of the two keeps your bases covered. Post workout it keeps you set for a few hours, and before bed it does what casien does but with a little anabolic boost!
Also, the addition of casein to whey DOES decrease oxidation and causes hyperaminoacidemia, so a mix is the way to go.
I use a higher whey than cassein blend because a higher amount of casein causes me to feel bloated and makes me less able to eat again in an hour and a half.

madbomber: What did I prove to you? (that I have too much time on my hands mabye?)

What I mean is that instead of focusing just on the amount of protein your body can utilize for muscle building, think of protein as a third source of extra calories.

Protein is the least likely macronutrient to be converted to bodyfat, therefore it can help you to stay lean while bulking if utilized in the way I stated.

protein is like a rubber tire... set that bitch on fire and it burns poor, and slow....

Protein can and perhaps should be cycled. The body after a while gets accustomed to your diet, just as it does your training routine. So changing it up is always good.

Skywalker, or anyone else

Have you heard anything about zig zagging calories? Met rx has a "user's guide" that talks about this.