I'm 25 years old. I'm making a nice amount of cash. I'm not going to post it - but it's more than both of my parents put together, and they live on Long Island, which isn't cheap. I'm new to this - before this I was in the military and after the Army I went back to school.

I am now learning quickly how to avoid taxes. I don't want to buy a house, although I may buy one or two modest homes and rent them. Who knows? Like I said I need an advisor. But that isn't the issue. The issue is: I take a bath on tax.

Bush pledged to lower the top tax bracket to 33%. To me that's still highway robbery but it's a start. It's 39.6% now. Just for taxes, I work almost 5 months out of the year. Bush will give me back a month. Gore gives me nothing. Gore actually uses people like me against Bush when campaigning ("the Bush tax cut targets big earners, etc").

Then there is Social Security. This is another 12.4% of ALL of our incomes. So I work another month and a half for old people. The Soc. Security trust fund earns 2%. Would you invest with an advisor who got you 2%? Of course not.
You could put your money in a savings account and get more than 2%.

So Bush comes along and says we should be able to invest privately, at least a portion of the Soc. Secu. money.

This is the answer to my problem, if it comes to pass.

I welcome criticisms. But please don't waste my time with 24-year ago DWI's, drug use at age 27, or any old time petty crap.

The man is running for President of the US, not President of the local Rotary.

Talk policy to me. Talk economics to me.
Talk to me.

$2.8B more for Drug War, for state treatment & abroad. (Oct 7)

Clinton-Gore drug policy is inconsistent and has failed. (Oct 7)

Feds must help border counties fight drug traffickers. (Jun 7)

Supports military package to Colombia to fight drug supply. (Mar 5)

Stronger penalties for first time cocaine possession. (Mar 5)

^^What a hypocrite!!^^

Identifies with former addicts based on former alcoholism. (Jan 22)

Full background checks on drug use for all appointees. (Aug 1999)

Parents make up for past by warning kids against drugs. (Aug 1999)

Supports tough drug laws as well as drug education programs. (Dec 1998)

Encourages abstinence from tobacco, drugs or alcohol. . (Dec 1998)

It's Congress that does all that? Holy shit?! Really?! You mean the US is a republic? Fuck! I thought Bush could just do all that, and if it didn't work he could enforce it with the military.

Thanks, 2Thick, I know how our government works. The point is, NONE of those will come to pass under any conditions if Gore wins, because he'll veto every one of those measures. And there isn't a 2/3 majority in Congress to override any of it. It is 2/3 to override a veto, right Mr. Political Science professor? :-)

As a college student...I will be honest I'm not here to learn I'm here to get a piece of paper that MIGHT if I'm lucky keep a few doors from closing on me...I don't think it will open any at all..I'm here in hopes of one day being able to make lots of money...If I learn something in College than thats just a bonus that might make me a little bit better person...Screw all that shit about contributing to society...I don't buy the JFK line "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" Hey I pay taxes and usually enough to where I'm not getting very much of it back, and what do I have to show for it...In my opinion not enough.

Call me cold hearted but screw the poor...I'm lucky, but some people I know aren't and they work 2 or 3 jobs, but it pays the rent, gives them food and clothing, and puts them in college...I don't care what anyone says, if you want something bad enough, reguardless if the chips are stacked against you it can be done.

If the poor don't want to do anything to move up then Fuck them...I refuse to believe that someone can not work there way up...My faimly is part of the middle class...At one time I would have considered us poor, but we never went without the things we needed, and my parents worked their asses off against the odds. Why should they pay more then some smuck who doesn't get it done?? thats bull...

I am in favor of a flat tax cause I believe the burden should be equal to the percentage of what everyone makes...Why do people view this as a bad thing???Perhaps it might be a wake up call to all the poor and lower middleclass and maybe everyone else that they are just as good as the rich and if they want to get to the top they will find a way...

I am glad to hear you know how the government works. Then you would know that the president has jurisdiction over federal affairs. Therefore, it has little affect on our lives since local affairs are what make the real (or at least as much of a) difference in our lives. For example, sales tax in some cities is 8% while others have 0%. That will make a hell of a bigger difference in your everyday spending than income tax (since you can weasle your way out of a lot with a great accountant).

BTW- Traditionally, there is trouble when Congress and the president are of the same political party.

You got good grades in school - well we should take some of your grades and give them to guy that didn't do so well. Oh - fuk no I work for them grades. While that other guy partied his ass off. That will never happen. Same thing - I worked hard for my money why should I have to share more than others.

So leave my money alone. I busted my ass for it. I know Matts pain last year I paid out 44%. So I paid almost as much as I took home. Whats the reason to bust my ass to do better for myself.

I seem to remember a tax plan that once involved no tax for a family of four making I think 35k a year or less. Now considering that the median income in Phx, AZ for example is aobut 28k, that is pretty damn sweet. Now I am sure that Gore will implement that without a problem. Give me a break. That tax break would all but illiminate the tax income to the government.

Why should I be punished for making more money? The more I make the less I actually get to spend. I pay 30% or may every week to federal taxes. That is a chunk of money, if I could invest that into a mutual fund I'd be a rich mofo by now.

Yes, it is about guns too. If you think it cannot happen here, think again. The Brits thought that, the Canadians thought that, the Australian's thought that, the Germans thoght that, the Italians thought that, the list goes on.

Basically it means that since rich people can afford to send their childern to prep-schools (etc) they have an enourmous advantage in life.
SO BUSH MADE IT INTO YALE THROUGH HIS PREP SCHOOL. AT YALE HE MADE C's AND D's AND WAS ACCEPTED INTO HARVARD. IN HARVARD HE ALSO DID POORLY AND NOW HE IS ABLE TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.
That is an extreme example of life chances.

So his father, the rich guy sent his kid to the best schools he could afford, that is what I am doing. I moved my family to an area, that is virtually crime free, has a brand new school, and costs me an arm and a leg for my house that they live in so they can go to school. All the while I live in a gang infested neighborhood, in a one bedroom overpriced apt. 4 states away, so that I can afford to do this for him.

People don't have to live in the bad areas of town, they can move, but they choose to live there. If I don't like where I live or like my job I change it.

Where did you go to school. Did you have bullets flying past your head everyday?

You don't seem to grasp the reality of the situation. You are not black and you have never lived in a ghetto. Therefore, you have not been subject to racism or had to conform to behaviors that is seen as dysfunctional in White America But that keeps you alive in a ghetto.

Oh yeah Bush did get C's and D's in Yale. Do some research and you will see.

So they both made c and d grades. So then the argument of who is better in school is a moot point. does it reallly matter. How many people do we know that got c and d average in college?

Well it is off to the gym. I think we are going to go round and round on this. I usually have a rule to never discuss politics or religion with friends and family. So, you have your view and I have mine. But at least you have inteligently explained yours as opposed to others.

Life chances are very real. No doubt. But you can't legislate that. Both Bush and Gore are sons of influential politicans. There is little difference in their upbringings. Private school all the way and then the Ivy League.

There are always going to be differences. People are not all equal. We can't try to legislate people to be equal, it's unnatural.

Good point that local issues are equally deserving of attention, but let's not chnage the topic away from the Presidential election, which is tomorrow. It is at hand so let's stay focused on that. A six percent income tax cut would have a noticeable effect on my day to day life, to be sure.

Pat1USMC, I don't know what you're all fired up about. After paying my way through college, serving as an Army Ranger, and then paying my way through school again, I think I have worked hard enough to enjoy the benefits I have earned thorugh my own diligence.

Why are you so bitter? I know the military doesn't get paid shit. It's horsehsit. I've been there bro - my guys were on food stamps too - I know the deal on that.

But no one gave me my money. I worked my ass off for it. I still am.

Please tell me why anyone else should have rights to it.

going to the most crime and gang infested public school and town on Long Island taught me a couple of things.

one of my biggest problems with Bush is that he is here not on his own merit but on his daddy's back up.
yes Bush is one spoon fed mofo.
Like I said on another thread:

-He Bankruped 3 of his father's busineses.

-He weazeled his way out of going to Vietnam while he supported the war here in the USA. this mudafuker partied and snorted here at home while our boys where overseas getting shot at by Vietcon, he did not protest the war he supported it.

-He partied and fucked around with no future well into his thirties, yes into his thirties he was still a bum.

He made it to where he is today riding on his daddy's back, he has no real merit.

I'm not a Democrat, If it was up to me, this country would be a Complete Capitalism like Honk Kong, NO safety nets and No welfare, every man for himself, you don't work you don't eat, but since it will never happen, then I guess we will have to settle for the choises given to us.

PS: If I was a born American I would seriously consider running for office.
I would run on a "hands off" platform, All drugs become legal, No welfare, No medicare, and a 20% Flat tax for everybody regardless of income.

A flat tax of 20%, shit, you just raised alot of peoples taxes. You want a flat tax try a 15%.

I have a problem with chastesing someone for past drug use, when most of us here are considered drug users. So, he snorted some coke, big deal, I suppose gore was a war hero..

There is no choise "d" either Gore or Bush will be elected, and thats it, a vote for anybody else is a waste. and the truth is there is no other candidates who arise my interest.

quote:

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Originally posted by LivinLarger:
Fuck the poor...If someone who is able to work does not make "enough" money why is this my concern?
Let them starve, I could give a shit less!!
...blessed poor lazy fuckers who ride on the backs of the hardworking Americans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by d1734:
Even if you are as dumb as a brick, you work long and hard and you can make plenty of money to get by. With good saving and investing you can eventually become fairly well off even with what is considered a very low class job. Thats a fact.

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What country do you live in? Because you are not talking about the USA.

I did not expect such a thoughtless and insensitive post from you.

You are wrong. A vote for anybody else would not be a waste. You are naive to think that.
Everyone is talking about wanting what's right, Ivy Leage Education and one who has the intelligence to help out in the seat of Presidency.

Truth to the matter is that what most (not all) of the population is debating here is what they have been fed: by means of money and advertising.

Why wouldn't you want a Lawyer as president? One who knows how the system works and what loopholes there are and basically someone who would have the inside on all that knowledge.

How about an Author? One that wrote about saftey and made it known to the general public about the neccessity to seatbelts in a car and then some. One that wrote about businesses policies and understands the views from both the public and the business sides.

How about a Realist? Someone who believes in equal rights for "EVERYONE"! This is supposed to be the land of the free, (but is it?) and it's time that everyone gets equal rights in everyday life; Black, White, and Every Color, Women and Men, Straightand Gay. No matter what, equal rights even for those that don't understand it or believe in it, need to accept it.

There you have it. You could have all this in a candidate, not too mention much more. But, this candidate has no chance of winning (This time) Because for some reason, this candidate was unable to recieve funding by the government and was not allowed in on the debates.

You may feel strongly about your choice for president and there is nothing wrong with that. But for the most part, a large majority is just spilling info that was fed to them by the media and well lets face it, those more fortunate. Those who had better "life Chances".

If Nader gets 6% of the votes, he will be able to get the Government funding and a chance to debate the next time around.

So back to the beginning, As long as you make a vote, it doesn't matter who you vote for, it can and will make a difference. The only time a vote is "wasted" is when it's not cast!

Peace.

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Two 45 plates and a chicken is the breakfast sandwich of champions!!

If you do not believe in any of the candidates and what they stand for then you should not vote for any of them.

Voting for the lesser of two evils or angels as some may say, is worse than standing your ground.

VOTE FOR BUSH-CHENEY.

I think you misunderstood my statement. What I was saying is that just because your not voting for either Gore or Bush doesn't mean your vote for who you believe in (other than Gore or Bush)won't count. Because it will.

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Two 45 plates and a chicken is the breakfast sandwich of champions!!

That whole theory about black kids in the ghetto is full of holes. Yes, it is a difficult environment to overcome, but it has been done, it is possible.

Also, no amount of legislation will change that. What kind of laws should be passed?

And lastly, why should I pay for it?

I suggest you read Larry Elder's book "10 things you can't say in America". The significance of racism is perpetuated by the media and the NAACP. The "black leaders" rather advance their agenda than to actually help the real problems facing black America. Whites face more racism than blacks do thanks to affirmitive action. Larry Elder shoots the racism theory of failure full of so many holes, oh, and hes black!

I don't care where you grew up or what you went through, everyone needs to stop this "so and so has done me wrong" and get on with their lives. I am part of the lower half of the middle class, but there are many blacks in my area and they certainly don't face any degree of racism whatsoever. Taller people are more like to get hired as CEOs, fair? Fat people are less likely to get hired than in shape people, fair? Maybe you want us all to grow up in a world similar to that described in the book "Harrison Burgeron" but I will pass, thank you very much. I have faced many hardships in my life.

Imagine growing up with acne so bad it looks worse than the kids on the accutane brochure. Having to go through 12 cortisone shots, a year of accutane, microdermabrasion, etc. etc. to get your life back. I know what its like to be harassed and made fun of more than almost every single black person on this great planet. Don't give me this crap, I don't buy it.

Once again, you can only speak when you are in the situation. You can pretend it does not exist but I bet you would think twice if your sister wanted to marry a black man.

I will not try to tell blind men what the world looks like because blind men (you) do not have the capacity to see. This is all very figurative.

I am not downplaying any hardships you have endured. We all have our difficulties, but they are relative to our situation.

As for Elder's book, it seems interesting and to some it makes sense. But then again, Hitler wrote a book too and it also made sense to a lot of people. This a a simple illustration of the information people will believe if it fits into their belief system.

Throughout history, almost every group of people has been enslaved at 1 time or another. The powerful enslave the weak, its not as clear cut as "white enslave black".

"Once again, you can only speak when you are in the situation. You can pretend it does not exist but I bet you would think twice if your sister wanted to marry a black man."

Your trying to tell me how I think? Excuse me, but yes I am insulted by this. I wouldn't think twice about it, and judging by my sister's relationship problems, I would be overjoyed if she found a decent black man to marry. Another fact you aren't mentioning is that blacks have as many, if not more problems with interracial marriage than whites. Surveys suggest as much.

"I will not try to tell blind men what the world looks like because blind men (you) do not have the capacity to see. This is all very figurative."

I found atheism in a house and in an area surrounded by hardcore christians, you think I am blind to other arguments and viewpoints?

"As for Elder's book, it seems interesting and to some it makes sense."

Indeed, considering every statement is backed up with cold, hard facts.

But then again, Hitler wrote a book too and it also made sense to a lot of people. This a a simple illustration of the information people will believe if it fits into their belief system.

My belief system changes to conform to new evidence. I do not manipulate evidence to conform to my belief system

"It is human nature to emulate information that matches what you believe and discount what goes against it."

Yes it is, and being human, same goes for you.

"You are just thinking what you have been conditioned to think."

I think it is the other way around.

Of course you are not going to say that "you would be upset if a black man wanted to marry your sister". It would hurt your argument, so you reply is invalid and does not have any bearing on this debate.

You do not have to be from a homogenous environment to be (figuratively) blind. It can be present in any environment. BTW, atheism is more widespread in environments where orthodox religion is forcefed to the young. You are just being rebellious and that is normal.

Once again, Elder's arguements seem to be backed by hard evidence because you want to believe so badly. Kinda like Mulder in the X-Files...lol.

As you have stated we are all subject to our human flaws (or as some would call survival mechanisms). Therefore you (as well as I) may think we are conforming new information into our belief system when we really are not. The only way to change is to learn how to think critically. This usully requires some sort of training (like university and graduate degrees).

Exactly, it didn't just happen to the blacks. However, the blacks think the world owes them one. Blacks perceive racism against asians and hispanics more so than asians and hispanics themselves. Care to explain that one?

Of course you are not going to say that "you would be upset if a black man wanted to marry your sister". It would hurt your argument, so your reply is invalid and does not have any bearing on this debate.

Heh...if you think that is my reasoning you truly are brainwashed. So, lets see, when a white says he is racist hes telling the truth, but when a white says he isn't he is just saying it for the hell of it? What do you know, you are proving Larry Elder correct again.

You do not have to be from a homogenous environment to be (figuratively) blind. It can be present in any environment. BTW, atheism is more widespread in environments where orthodox religion is forcefed to the young. You are just being rebellious and that is normal.

Being rebellious? Again, I am insulted. Bring it on, test my knowledge on evolutionism. See just how I am doing it for the "rebellious" purposes. I have better values than the majority of Christians, but I refuse to believe in fairy tales with no basis in science. Oh BTW, got any evidence I can see that atheism is more widespread when religion is forcefed to the young?

Once again, Elder's arguements seem to be backed by hard evidence because you want to believe so badly. Kinda like Mulder in the X-Files...lol.

The references and charts are listed in the book, check it out if you don't believe me.

I am doing post-graduate work, so speaking in an Aristotan sense, I would be at an advantaged position. This means I would be more traditionally trained at overcoming my human nature. This is not to say you are not so inclined, but I am only speaking from a general standpoint.

Oh...I see.

Note to self: Remember to do post-graduate work in critical thinking, apparently it gives free points regardless of the subject of the debate and enables you to render opponents arguments baseless due to their inferior training.

My ancestors jews were slaves for almost 2000 years, we were the same color as the egyptians. I am not sure what war was fought that led to the egyptians ruling the jews, but they did so fairly well. Nonetheless, we were still slaves.

I believe it was the portuguese who first enslaved black people. It was not just their color, but the fact that they considered them inferior human beings.

The america's in colonial times had white slaves (known as indentured servants) It seems as though all races have been enslaved at one point or another in their history.

I state from first hand experience that the blacks are much more racist than the whites are.

I can't recall the number of times being on car stop and hearing, you only stopped me because I am black. I even heard this being said to another black officer.

In corporate america, the white male is the minority and most racially disrespected of any. My job hinges on whether or not a quota has been filled, I have seen black people who couldn't do the job they were hired to do and or refused to do it, (as well as whites) yet it was the whites who were repremanded or fired. While their black counterparts continued on doing shit. I have also seen those who bust their ass 120% everyday as well.

Would I be upset if my sister married or dated a black man? Depends on what he has done with his life. If he is a hood then yes I would, if not I would not be upset, but I wouldn't be happy either. I am not a fan of interacial mixing, but I am tolerant of it and will not interfere with it if that is what the parties choose.

Poor people I would not say fuck them, but if they are poor because they are lazy then tough shit. I remember being in the Marines with a family and making less than 2000$ a month before taxes and being told I made too much for food stamps, yet I could not afford to go to the grocery store after payin my rent/utilities and insurance. I was considered well below poverty level in Irvine california which the poverty level was 40,000 and below.

When I was going to college I could not get food stamps for two years with a family of three even though our income was less than 10,000 year. All because we owned a vehicle that we made payments on and could not sell because we owed more than it was worth. But the government said I had over 7,000$ in equity. (they considered it as being paid off) Now I tell you this, I was highly pissed, becuase I had fought for this country as a Marine for 5 years, was in college to improve my lot in life and was watching whole family's of indians, blacks, and mexicans walk in and walk out with food stamps and cash and did so everymonth while I could not.

I incurred a 94,000$ school loan to get my degree, and while I have to pay it back, foreign nationals have been given a free college ride by my gov't. They will then take this knowledge back to their country and use it against us. (most will some will not) Is that fair? No. Did I scream racial injustice? No. Would a black or mexican? You bet.

quote:

---

Originally posted by d1734:
Exactly, it didn't just happen to the blacks. However, the blacks think the world owes them one. Blacks perceive racism against asians and hispanics more so than asians and hispanics themselves. Care to explain that one?

I am not here to debate the sub-issues of racism in and between minority groups. I merely say that it exists and it has a bearing on their upward mobility.

Heh...if you think that is my reasoning you truly are brainwashed. So, lets see, when a white says he is racist hes telling the truth, but when a white says he isn't he is just saying it for the hell of it? What do you know, you are proving Larry Elder correct again.

This is a non-issue and it was my fault for bringing up an emotionally loaded subject in a rational argument. As Forrest Gump would say "That's all I got to say about that."

Being rebellious? Again, I am insulted. Bring it on, test my knowledge on evolutionism. See just how I am doing it for the "rebellious" purposes. Oh BTW, got any evidence I can see that atheism is more widespread when it is forcefed to the young?

You can be rebellious and highly informed at the same time so your knowledge about this subject is of no consequence. I will find you several interesting articles that will theorize exactly what I have stated about becoming rebellious in a strictly religious environment. I will post it for all to see.

The references and charts are listed in the book, check it out if you don't believe me.

Charts, Statistics, and Graphs can (and have been) manipulaed to in order to look as if they are in your favor, so his charts and graphs are not scientific fact, but rather an interpretation of the facts (which is a big difference). Also, the info in the references can be take out of its original context. You must also analyze the bias of the references.

Oh...I see.

Note to self: Remember to do post-graduate work in critical thinking, apparently it gives free points regardless of the subject of the debate and enables you to render opponents arguments baseless due to their inferior training.

If you would have read the last sentence you will see that I have training but it is far from making me superior or correct in a debate. Critical thinking is used to look past the bias. It does not help if you hold the same bias, though.

[/B]

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I hope you are not taking this personal. I really like our debate. It is very interesting. Don't worry, I will respect you in the morning....hahahaha!!!

Quote from Elder's book: "But as to the percentage of those stopped versus those arrested, whites have more to complain about. Why? True, the police stop more cars driven by black motorists. But when the police stop whites, they are less likely than black motorists to have drugs in the car. And so, as a percentage, whites actually have more to complain about than do blacks. After all, when a white is stopped, he or she is more likely to be innocent than when a black is stopped! Where are the "white leaders" screaming about DWW--Driving While White!

2thick, don't worry I always love a good debate. I may seem heated because this is just text, but at my keyboard I am quite relaxed.

Do you remember the little paragraph I wrote about the beginning of my life? Well, I have been learning from life experience as long as I can remember. Let's just say I have lived in 14 countries and have had to learn 5 languages at one time or another to survive. English is my 3rd language and I only learned it starting at 8 years old. Therefore, the book learning only explains what I have seen and experienced my whole life, not dictating what real life "should" be.

quote:

---

Originally posted by chesty:

In corporate america, the white male is the minority and most racially disrespected of any.

[Are you sure you that gear is not getting to your head. That statement does not make sense.]

Poor people I would not say fuck them, but if they are poor because they are lazy then tough shit.

[Good Point]!

They will then take this knowledge back to their country and use it against us.

[This has been true for developing countries throughout modern histroy (from 1790's on)]

Would a black or mexican? You bet.

[That is assuming the behavior of a whole culture. That is a not rational.]

The real world is more than book learning. And I have found that book learning gives you a starting point. From there you must go experience what the books have taught you. And you may not always like the answers you get.

[i][Please refer to my post above][i]

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hey 2thick, don't forget to rebut my arguments!!

With me, though, you earn no points for doing post-graduate work in anything. My education has been interrupted only by schooling.

--------------------------------------------
Let me guess you are white?
Don't talk unless you are black and live in a ghetto (and not white living in a working class neighborhood). There is a world of difference.
-------------------------------------------

You've gone over this but it needs to be gone over again. So adversity doesn't matter unless you're a black kid in a ghetto? Ridiculous. If the adversity in my life is relative to my situation, then adversity in their life is also. So what I perceive as adverse, they may not perceive as being all that bad. But the LEVELS of perceived adversity are the same to the individuals IN THE SITUATION.

-------------------------------------------
As for Elder's book, it seems interesting and to some it makes sense. But then again, Hitler wrote a book too and it also made sense to a lot of people. This is a simple illustration of the information people will believe if it fits into their belief system.
-------------------------------------------

With a quick reference to Hitler you attempt to dismiss Elder's claims. Saying that it makes sense if people want to believe it - Elder's claims cannot so easily be written off.

-------------------------------------------
I will not try to tell blind men what the world looks like because blind men (you) do not have the capacity to see.
-------------------------------------------

Whether this is figurative or not, it's really weak. Next time I need a thought, I'll call you. What's your phone number? Am I in the right career? Dating the right girl? I can't wait until we talk and you can clear all this up for me.

--------------------------------------------
Of course you are not going to say that "you would be upset if a black man wanted to marry your sister". It would hurt your argument, so you reply is invalid and does not have any bearing on this debate.
-------------------------------------------

All you are saying here 2Thick, is that his reply is invalid because it's not what you want to hear. First you told us what to think, now you told us we were wrong because we think otherwise. Junk.

Where you come from, thinking critically may require some kind of advanced training. I postulate that too much schooling strips you of the ability to think critically. Thinking for a grade or the approval of some other "educated" people is far from critical.

Nothing personal. It's good to see you in chat land. I welcome your intelligence and enthusiasm.

quote:

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Originally posted by MattTheSkywalker:
2Thick,

Interesting stuff bro.

With me, though, you earn no points for doing post-graduate work in anything. My education has been interrupted only by schooling.

Not trying to earn points or impress anyone I am just stating that my rational is classically structured.

You've gone over this but it needs to be gone over again. So adversity doesn't matter unless you're a black kid in a ghetto? Ridiculous. If the adversity in my life is relative to my situation, then adversity in their life is also. So what I perceive as adverse, they may not perceive as being all that bad. But the LEVELS of perceived adversity are the same to the individuals IN THE SITUATION.

Interesting theory, but being upset that your parents don't buy you a car for your 16th birthday is not the same as being upset about being forced to join a gang (and making you automatically deviant) because otherwise you will be harassed on a daily basis

With a quick reference to Hitler you attempt to dismiss Elder's claims. Saying that it makes sense if people want to believe it - Elder's claims cannot so easily be written off.

I was using an extreme example to show that the information may not be factual just because a book is published and people agree with it. It was a more general example that everybody would be able to relate to. If you would like, I can refer to some obscure theory that means nothing to a regular person.

Whether this is figurative or not, it's really weak. Next time I need a thought, I'll call you. What's your phone number? Am I in the right career? Dating the right girl? I can't wait until we talk and you can clear all this up for me.

BWWAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! Very good, but I was pointing out the fact that you will not listen to another point of view because
you have not developed the tools necessary (out of choice and not out of ignorance).

All you are saying here 2Thick, is that his reply is invalid because it's not what you want to hear. First you told us what to think, now you told us we were wrong because we think otherwise. Junk.

Once again, this was a very subjective and loaded question that does not belong in a rational debate.

Where you come from, thinking critically may require some kind of advanced training. I postulate that too much schooling strips you of the ability to think critically. Thinking for a grade or the approval of some other "educated" people is far from critical.

I have more real life experience than any person would care to have, so my schooling strengthened my understanding of my experiences and the world (by proxy).

Nothing personal. It's good to see you in chat land. I welcome your intelligence and enthusiasm.

Nothing taken personally. I also enjoy your enlightened (although jaded...lol )view point.

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Can't you see that the "black leaders" and their cronies don't care about the real problems of black America? End of the drug war will help end gangs. But regardless, you are in much more trouble once you join a gang. By lowering standards and pointing fingers it continues to hurt the blacks rather than just moving towards solving the real problems and having a "you can do it" attitude. Matt is correct though, people perceive adversity no matter their income or class. I have rarely met a person who didn't think they had it rough. I used to be guilty of this myself, and can personally attest to how important attitude is to your success.

To a point I agree. Another example: a working class family's father loses his job. They could be dislocated or severely adversely affected. Lose the house, have to get a modest apartment, etc, until the father can get back on his feet.

Whereas, a child in the ghetto may not know his father, live in a tenement, need free lunch from the school to get by, etc. In this case, having to relocate to a SHELTER and then back to another project may seem less adverse than the above scenario, to the people involved.

Many working class families are a layoff or an injury away from serious peril. Most ghetto kids are already there. But in a relative sense, the working class people suffer more from the change.

Still I understand your point.

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I was using an extreme example to show that the information may not be factual just because a book is published and people agree with it. It was a more general example that everybody would be able to relate to. If you would like, I can refer to some obscure theory that means nothing to a regular person.
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No need for obscure theory but if you get a chance, point me towards some topic relayed reading. Always looking to increase teh knowledge. In my point of view, bringing Hitler into an argument is rarely relevant or appropriate.

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BWWAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! Very good, but I was pointing out the fact that you will not listen to another point of view because
you have not developed the tools necessary (out of choice and not out of ignorance).
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Again, if there is something you think I could read that would help me develop greater critical thinking skills or open my yes to new perspectives, by all means, send it.

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I have more real life experience than any person would care to have, so my schooling strengthened my understanding of my experiences and the world (by proxy).
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I agree with this point. Experience will always make you question what you read or hear.

Seriously though, any topic I'm always up fior discussion with informed and intelligent people, no matter how much I disagree.

And - it is pretty cool to see this type of exchange on a bodybuilding board.

this brings me to the question about the blacks in America, and how unhappy we are with them being on welfare and affirmative action and them commititng all the crimes (or so claimed by d1734).

This is my look at the situation as a Latino who just arrived here about 16 years ago.

A generation last 30 years, and it has been about 40 years since blacks where give the rights to use the same bathrooms, go to the same schools as whites, I mean they where forced by law to sit in the back of the bus.
there are still blacks alive today who where forced by law to give up their seat in a bus to a white man. I seen an interview on TV not too long ago where they interviewd the first blacks to attend an all white school in the shouth, and they showed footage of them being scorted by police into school, now these people are still alive today, the same people who rallied with Martin Luther King(peacefuly) and got sprayed with water hoses and had dogs attacking them, those people are still alive today, but it should all be forgoten right?????

Now that i have made my point that blacks being oppresed didn't happen that long ago, now that we agree that it is not acient history I will make my next point.

Carma, you reap what you sow, you make the bed you sleep in it,
blacks didn't come here on their own (Irish, Italians, greeks and the rest of us decided to come here), they where brought here against their will, they where chained and forced to come here to serve as slaves, The slaves held the economy of the south together, by providing a cheap cheap cheap force of labor for the plantations.
Ok so they where brought here to be ensalved.
blacks where slaved, abused, beaten ,raped and what ever else a fucking hick does with his PROPERTY, this went on for 200+ years then when they where finaly "liberated" after the civil war, then came the fun of being discrimenated and abused,
It took nothing more than a white girl acusing a "boy" of raping her, and the "colored boy" would hang from a tree, and if anybody came to their defence they would hang too. this went on for another 100+ years, I mean, damn blacks where getting linched and hung in the south as late as the 1950's.
so a whole race was abused and treated as poperty and at best second rate citizens for over 300+ years in America, and now when these people where given their rights as humans as americans about 40 years ago, now is forget about it and move on.

Carma, you reap what you sow, you make the bed you sleep in it, your forefathers(caucasians) are responsable for whats going on today, they brought a whole race here and treated them like property and denied them their rights as human for over 300+, now Carma is going full circle and it is time for the return, yes they commit most of the crimes and they are probably the ones who are kicking you son's ass in school, they have a higher ng/dl Test in their system and are geneticaly more apt to play sports, so it might be one of them getting that sports schoolarship before your son(or you). now you hate them because they are not the same Uncle Tom and Marting Luther King who would just turn the other cheeck, they nolonger rally and protest for their rights, now they demand more than their share, (and they are taking it).

Its a shitty deal But... Carma, you reap what you sow, you make the bed you sleep in it.

PEACE.

I'm 17 years old and have never showed the slightest hint of racism towards another person. At this point, yes it should be forgiven, not forgotten. Many black leaders only wanted 10 years of affirmitive action to put things back where they should be, but the blacks with a vendetta against whites rebeled.

I'm not saying they don't have a right to be angry, but they are dealing with things the wrong way. If you lower the standards, you will get what you expect. This is exactly what is happening. In Barbados the students average a 1350 on SAT in far less modern classrooms than American students. They totally disprove the "culturally biased" theory in regard to the test. Blaming the white man for problems that are long since over is not the answer. The NAACP have the nerve to back up scum bags like Don King and OJ Simpson waving the flag of "white man has done me wrong." Maybe he has, but its time to put the past away and deal with the real problems facing black America.

And please read the book "The Ten Things You Can't Say in America" by Larry Elder. It explains things in depth with countless facts and examples. If you believe that whites are currently more racist than blacks after reading this book, then you live in another world.