Where to begin?

The Second Amendment guarantess us the right to bear arms, not the right to use them against others without justification. bearing arms and using them against people are two different things.

Are any of you ignorant enough to think thst banning guns would solve gun crimes? Do you think that criminals actually buy guns and register them? Of course not. Would you? Would you want a record of the gun you used in a crime? Of course not. Ilegal guns will always be available.

ALWAYS. More money changes hands worldwide to buy weapons than to buy drugs. Weapons are not going away, just because the 535 members of Congress vote them out of the gun stores. The Milliom Mom March would have been more aptly named the "Million Moron March".

Here's proof: the country of Australia recently repealed their citizenry's right to bear arms. Since then, gun related homicides have increased 11% and armed robberies have increased OVER 40%. Nice decision, Australia.

So let's stop trying to give our rights away. Why should my legal registered weapons be taken from me because others don't know how to use them?

Matt

As for Frackal I can't believe I swore to defend people like that to the death if needed. But that is where we are different, I do not compromise, compromise leads to domination and enslavement.

chesty

Are Frakal and men like him the new wave of American males? Are the Warrior idealogies of those who served in the armed forces dead for the vast majority of Americans? Well, then God help all of us because like the Romans before us our empire is also coming to an end.

IG

peace

"I agree with your point about shit like that pissing you off but to think that making gun possession illegal would solve the problem is being very naive of how society is. Drugs are illegal and yet alot of people on this board probably are in possession of some type of drug. I can go out right now and get some crack if I wanted to. This shit pisses me too off but in alot of respects there is not much we can do. The only way we will truly solve anything is through educating our youth. If you made guns illegal, it would take them out of the hands of good, law-abiding citizens and the criminals would still have them. Do you really think if they were to say tommorrow "Guns are now illegal" all the little gangbangers would march over to the police station right now and turn them in?? Hell, most of the guns they own are probably stolen or illegal in some way or another. And then where does that leave the good citizens?? Pretty much helpless. Think of it this way. You can build a bomb out of household chemicals and you can probably find all of the instructions right here on the net. Hell, the Anarchists Cookbook has all kinds of recipes for weapons and explosive devices. So what now?? Do we start taking all these chemiclas out of the house?? No, because people who want to make a bomb will find a way somehow. We have had weapons for years and never have we had the kind of violence from kids that we have had in the past. Why, well lets look at this. Today there are more and more kids being born to mothers who are unfit to raise kids or pretty much anyone else for that matter. And so who raises these kids? They learn their morals throught TV and movies and those are violent as hell these days. The most popular video games are usually the ones that are the most graphic, vulgar, and violent. When I was growing up we had Atari and Super Mario. Todays kids have been growing up on games where the main objective is to shoot down the enemy and watch their blood hit the wall. To say that eliminating guns will end the problem is being very naive. Look at this example where the kid froze paintgun balls and shot at everyone. There will always be weapons to use. The key here is for us to take a stand and start educating our youth and quit letting them be raised by the TV and video games. I mean, at a young age everything a kid sees influences his personality. And can we really blame them if they have been raised by playing video games that teach them to solve their problems by killing? The only thing that will ever end this is when we learn to take the responsibilty of educating our youth and quit letting them grow up playing these games and watching this violent crap on TV and in the movies. I don't have any kids yet but when I do, I will not let them play any games or watch any movies where violence is the theme. Sure they may get mad because all their "friends" are watching it but that's just too damn bad. We will see who is right when those "friends" who were allowed by their parents to watch that crap go out and murder ten students that they didn't like. I do support our right to bear arms. We need weapons to protect ourselves from the countless criminals who wander our streets daily. Now I love a violent game or movie just as much as the next guy but if banning those would solve the problem, let me know where I sign up to support this. I would give up my entire violent movie and game collection if I knew it would stop this violence among our youth. And that is all I have to say.

Peace...Mav"

While I would be the last person in the world who would dare to openly suggest that we need a bloody revolution in this country; it seems that a lot of good folks are suggesting that very thing. Consider the following quotes that Dan Blather, Peter Perfumed and Tom Guffaw didn' t tell you about on the evening news:

Reported in Newswatch Magazine, November/December 1996, Page 19. The quotes are from a Pentagon Position Paper entitled Warrior Class written by Major Ralph Peters, Deputy Chief for Intelligence.

"...The desire for patriotism is considered an enemy doctrine. The U.S. armed forces must be prepared to fight against all those who oppose the New World Order and who are holding out for nationalism."

"...This new warrior class is most dangerous because they consist of those who fight out of strong religious beliefs."

"...There is a worldwide class of patriots who number in the millions, and if the current trend continues, there may be more of these who love freedom and are now the target of the New World Order."

"...You cannot bargain and compromise with these warriors."

"...We, as the military, need to commit more training time to counter these warrior threats. We must have an active campaign to win over the populace."

"...This must be coupled with irresistible violence."

Zbignew Brezhinsky, National Security Advisor, Carter Administration, Executive Director of the Trilateral Commission "Soon it will possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities."

President William Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV's "Enough is Enough" "When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans ..."

"And so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it. That's what we did in the announcement I made last weekend on the public housing projects, about how we're going to have weapon sweeps and more things like that to try to make people safer in their communities."

Nevermind to the rest of what I was going to say, I can't believe this shit.

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FUCK GIRLS

Initially this country was based on a fiat, or free currency system, and then Woodrow WIlson basically signed away the basic freedom our founding father had fought so hard for. If you don't think money, politics and power don't all sleep in the same bead then u can't spell PAC!

So it is still important and relivant in my opinion for people to have their right to bear arms. I believe it is the key that has kept this country a democracy to this date.

At this time I do not own a gun, I have in the past owned them for hunting. I like though having the ability to choose my ownership status and not having that status thrust upon me by the government!

When I hear people curse my country and yours, when I see the films of the veterans who were spit on and hit and insulted when they returned from Vietnam, it saddens me and it hurts me more than anything. I have always wanted to be a Marine since the day I was concieved, I have promised and still do promise to shed my blood in the defense of my country and brother and sister Marines. If you do not know what side of the fence you sit state so. To state that you hate this fucking country tells me exactly where you stand and it is not on my side.

I can respect your confusion and beliefs and wanting to know the truth, but patriotism, loyalty, honor, sacrifice is not something that is obtained, it is earned and paid for with blood. When I hear the Marine Corps Hymn, I still stand at attention out doors and face the music, or stay silent when indoors. When I hear the National Anthem it brings out emotion in me that causes me to cry the same as the Marine Hymn does.

How does it make you feel? Can you recite the Pledge of Alligance from memory?

When someone shouts obscentities about our country it is a disrespect to all of those who have died and will die in the name of The United States of America, as well as to those who have served and will serve.

FINE. I apologize for having offended you. I understand your position a bit better now. Maybe I should be more specific when making statements. I DO however hate what has become of this country, filled with sloths and sheep.

The values and ideals of freedom and such that the United States was founded on I DO believe in and would be willing to defend, but I don't know if it means much to my generation anymore. I don't believe soldiers are given the same respect and appreciation that they deserve and were given in the past.

I mean, look at (like you said) the vietnam war. They were treated horribly when they returned home.

Look at Desert Storm. Many many soldiers have died from 'Gulf War Syndrome.' Whether that was an experiment conducted by our Govt. or Saddam's chemical warfare, the US is ignoring those men and women and not giving them the care the need and deserve.

I CAN recite the pledge of allegiance by heart, just FYI. And I also believe that the liberal movement has swung this country too far to the left, causing much harm.

It is also hard for me to try to see that my parents were probably/possibly wrong the whole time.

But what the fuck do I know anyway? I'm just a stupid kid who's only been around for 18 years, with a very limited view of the world. However, I am trying my best to learn, so instead of flaming me next time, maybe you can help.

And I apologize AGAIN for my 'fuck this country' comment. Though I do feel that it is going to shit.

-Frackal

PS- When I said 'no set opinon', I mean that I have no definite/strong opinion. Show me enough viable facts to convince me, and I'll jump off to your side of the fence.

Mav, I will debate your statement above tomorrow in a separate thread.

HOWEVER- Now that I'm in not in a post-workout/irritated rage like I was last night I will agree that Harris and Klebold would have gotten those guns no matter what.

Like I stated in my first post on that other thread, I am still quite confused about what the ACTUAL problem is with this insanity. It seems like some form of brainwashing a la the Manchurian Canidate.

quote:

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Originally posted by chesty:
Remember to that countries like England have to gun bans, yet several years ago, two kids about 12 years old took a 1 or two year old from a british mall and beat the infant to death with rocks. Now, I think the problem is again not guns, not knifes or weapons of anykind, but the moral corruptness of society and the New World Order.

Mav, I will debate your statement above tomorrow in a separate thread.

chesty

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I agree with that statement. That was the whole point of my response. As long as there are people that want to kill someone, there will always be a weapon somewhere. And I look forward to that debate. But what is it you plan to debate? Just curious.

Maverik

chesty

I don't know why your upset with someone elses property rights. I mean if guns are to
be taken away I guess cars could be next. After all cars are far more dangerous and more available to anyone who wants to steal one and use it as a weapon of mass murder.

This is riduculous, guns don't kill people, people kill people by whatever means is available. Knives, baseball bats, poison (which by the way are is in EVERY home in America).

This is the beginning of the end of the world and this is why all of this violence is comming from and most people can feel it.

Get real and don't try to save the world it does not want it.

Oh by the way, I went target shooting with my .308 and on the first shot I nailed the target dead center at over 125 yards. I do
mean dead center.

1st: Learn how to spell my name please.

2nd: Your post was neither intelligent nor very convincing. Let me point out that it is very different to beat someone to death with a baseball bat then it is to drive by a crowd and spray bullets out the window. Much less..'personal' I guess you could say.

Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time with you.

I'm sure you're very proud that you can 'nail the target dead center at over 125 yards' LOL LOL LOL but what the fuck does that have to do with the arguement. Hahahah...maybe I'll give you more credibility because you are a good marksman?

And I'm not trying to save the world. I'm doing the next best thing...moving to Canada.

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FUCK GIRLS

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12 GUAGE IN MY HAND
23 GUAGE IN MY ASS

You missed the entire point of the argument.

Hypothetically, if no guns at all existed, it might be a better plqace. But they do, billions of them, so let's try to keep the topic in reality. For now we can deal with the problem, or we can work on a time machine.

Guns are here. No amount of legislation will take them away.

What it comes down to is people's unwillingness to shoulder the responsibility of educating others about guns. So instead we suggest stupidness like "let's make a law...."

There are over 30,000 gun control laws in this country. What makes you think laws work? Do they stop drug use? No. More people areincarcerated for drugs than anything else, and still the drugs are rampant. Will they stop ILLEGAL gun purchases? No.

People need to open their eyes. Rights = responsibilities. Give up your responsibilities and you give up your rights. No thanks.

Unless you live in Canada, you can't know how bad prohibiting guns is to normal people. Ohh.. by the way, everything is illegal in Canada.. Better stay in the us (south).

Chesty: My gf worked in a bar where fights were pretty common (eod) and everytime my gf called the police, they parked in front of the bar and wait until it's over !!! (I'm sure you think like me that's ridiculous !)

Point#2: Guns dont protect you from our government, your vote does. Trust me, the governments stockpile of weapons is a little larger than yours.

Point#3: Saying you would move to another country should not be insulting to veterans. In fact, I have thought about moving to a safer country for the sake of my own sanity. (like letting my wife go out by herself at night time without the fear that she will be raped or killed)

Second - learn your local laws. There is not a major city in the US that will let you carry a gun in public. That old strap it on hip stuff is a bunch of BS. Every city has ordiance gainst everything to do with guns. In the city of St. Louis just to transport a gun you have to do a half dozen things.

You better have it locked in a case in your truck. With the ammo locked in another case and you better not have the clips loaded.

The right to bear has been greatly infringed on by state and local laws. I heard one time that in Missouri and St. Louis city they over 30,000 gun laws. Man what the hell could they possibly not cover with that.

Being safe is a state of mind and an attitude. It should be taught to everyone. Walking around in your own closed little world not paying attention to your sorroundings is asking to get punked.

Don't fear my M-16s( yes I have 3 and a couple AK's). Fear my sniper rigs ( yes I have several). These guns are the one I can make the greatest impact with and never been seen. Do I hell no! and less than 1% of all guns will be used in violecne and I assure the percentage is more than likely lower than that.

I want to take away all the baseball bats of the world. So everyone line up and hand them over! You heard me give them up. More assults happen every year with baseball bats than any other item. So line up and give them to me.

Second, criminals dont really care if there is a law against concealed weapons. The point is you are making it more convienient for them to get their guns. Of course they can still get them, but they should not be sold at 7-11s either.

Third, if you knew anything about the US constituion you would know it is interpetive and each generation tweaks it to fit their beliefs. If you think "right to bear arms" is written in stone, think again.

Fourth, I am a second amendment advocate. I dont want to ban all guns or have registration. Im just someone who sees the other side of the argument.

Lastly Cleaner, next time you disagree with me do it with inteligence and respect instead of ignorance and insults. You only bring down the good name of the board when you act that way-

BTW- I was talking about the safety of my wife and family, not me. How the fuck can safety be a state of mind for my wife who weighs 120lbs soaking wet? 1 out of 5 women and their lifetime will be raped in the US. I guess by your argument they had a poor state of mind, huh?

Your degree should tell you that.

If state laws and local laws come first then it simply doesn't matter.

PLZ - man that so much crap.

Stories like these set a horrible precedent for the youth of today. Nothing seems to be our fault...we can always blame others. This just makes it that much easier to commit the heinous crimes we see, because in the end, they can always blame somebody else. Our nation's complete lack of personal accountability is appalling, and I strongly believe it to be the pillar upon which our nation is crumbling. Couple this with a lack of proper parenting and we have the problems we see today. Not only are people taught that nothing they do is their own fault, but they have no strong parental influence to show them otherwise. How many times have we heard something akin to "let him watch TV, he's not bothering anybody."

So to sum up my soap box sermon...guns are not the problem. Our problem lies with our decaying sense of personal accountability, which is also manifest in the shitty job a lot of parents are doing with their kids. This issue, of course is a hell of a lot harder to fix than "get rid of guns," so it has become a non-issue.

To me it is ANY loaded gun that is pointed at me or my family. I don't care if it is a
AK or a bolt-action .22

I get tired of the same old crap about gun laws. What does the Gov't fear about us? LaPierre was right-Clinton does need some gun-related violence to further his gun control agenda-And that is a sad thing on his part. Shame on him.

I have had to rely twice on myself being armed to avoid violence against my family. I will NEVER give that right.

BTW, how did you jackasses get "I think Oswald killed Kennedy" out of "Oswald used a mailordered gun"? If Charles Hathcock could not replicate the shot I dont think anyone could possibly do it. And yes fuckin idiot Cleaner, I know about duh guns and duh I duh own dems too. How cool do you feel insulting me from you computer?

I also had an interesting thought when discussing this issue in a class today, think of the guy behind the counter at the gas station, banning guns would make it so he can't have a gun but you can bet the criminal robbing him would be strapped. Like taking candy from a baby then eh?

Talk about bring the board down. I never called you name I told you to get a life.

Your realy reaching.

Just ban the gun and that will fix everything. More laws - always more laws.

Cleaner: Not sure what your hangup is with the JFK thing, my point about Lee Harvey was just a fact. Not an insinuation or accusation. Im not even really sure if your reading my posts before you reply. I answered your assault question even though it was a stupid one. The weapon most used in assaults is physical force. If you read my post you would see that. Its a stupid question because thats all assault could be. Anything else would be considered assault with a deadly weapon.

Maybe if you guys read my posts instead of reading into my posts you wouldnt keep wasting my time replying-

Take a deep breath, man you have thin skin.

No your right alot of people get killed each year by other people.
In my city yesterday there were two different gun event that made the news.
Its not the guns its the people. So long as it socially alright to act in this manner it doesn't matter what laws you have. You'll never get the guns. Criminals will always have.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. T:
BTW, Lee Harvey Oswald got his gun mailordered-

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