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Author Topic:   Civics Lesson, Constitutional Due Process; Denial of Life, Liberty and Property
komododragon
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 134)
posted June 25, 2000 10:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for komododragon   Click Here to Email komododragon     Edit/Delete Message
The State of Texas chose to execute Gary Graham, a man who most likely murdered another man, using infirm due process.

The State lacking evidence to prove guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt", chose instead to bypass the defendant's due process safegaurds (which would have most certainly set a guilty man free, if all the State had charged him with was capital murder), because the State--and everyone else--were certain Graham committed the murder and was in any event a horrible criminal. In the end, violating Mr. Graham's due process rights allowed the prosectors to present a case to the jury that left the jury with no other choice but to convict and condemn.

Whether we should allow our government to forego these "technicalites", which if observed would have aquitted a murderer, is not an option we as free citizens can afford.

Our Consitution is based on one overarching principal, that is, the fundametal belief that government tends to amass power for its own sake, and that power will be used to repress and supress those that tend to diminish governemental power. Hence the most powerful article of the Constitution provides that the government cannot deprive a citizen of life, liberty or property without due process of law.

What is "due process". Well simply put its all the procedural technicalities that you are "due" if you are hauled before a tribunal and threatend with a deprivation of your life (execution), liberty (jail), or property (your $$'s, home etc.). The more that is at stake the greater the process that must be afforded. Process means everything, from Miranda, a competent attorney, the right to cross examine an accuser, to a myriad of appeals to higher courts.

It is essential to due process, and a fair trial, to have a competent attorney who can present exculpatory witnesses. In Mr. Graham's case, witnesses to rebut the prosecution's eye witness. It is the prosecution's job to discredit the defendant's witness, and it is the jury's duty to descide who to believe. Its a whole other question whether the State simply offering the testimony of one eye witness, when the defendant pleads not guilty, is sufficient due process for the State to deprive one of life. Traditionally, yes, but arguably no.

Here's the bottom line of my argument, yeah Graham problably murdered someone. But as free people can we afford to let our government, when it really doesn't have a strong evidentary case, to go ahead, fudge all the rules of road, so that the defendant will get what we all think that he really deserves.

I say no, remember, the South over and over during the 50's and 60's avoided due process technicalities to insure segregation.

Finally, you say, so what were they supposed to do let Graham walk, well maybe (we let OJ walk but big deal, the system worked, given the malfeasance of the L.A. police I'm not sure I could have voted to convict), but in this case the State did have sufficient evidence of attempted murder, robbery, and rape to insure a fair trial and a conviction on numerous charges, that would insure Graham would stay in prision for most if not all of what would have been his life.

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mightydog
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 238)
posted June 25, 2000 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mightydog   Click Here to Email mightydog     Edit/Delete Message
He was due, 19 years on death row, got a process, lethal injected his sorry ass. Its all good! Period.

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MattTheSkywalker
Moderator
(Total posts: 1098)
posted June 25, 2000 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MattTheSkywalker   Click Here to Email MattTheSkywalker     Edit/Delete Message
Komodo, I like your post. It's hard to get most people to actually think about this shit (reference Mighty Dog's response). Most people would just as soon say, "Graham was a dirtbag, he got what he deserved".

Graham was a criminal who deserved long term incarceration, to be sure. However anyone who bothered to read about the case would know that he was deprived of several opportunities to present several witnesses in his own defense.

And that is unjust; a violation of due process.

The death penalty is an interesting phenomenon. Study after study has shown it is no deterrent to crime, and yet many people are naive enough to think it is just that.

It took 19 years to execute Graham - this is ludicrous. More than half of his life was spent on death row.

The death penalty is worthwhile only in cases where guilt has been proven with absolute certainty: either DNA evidence or videotape type proof.

Adopting this standard would eliminate the 19 year appeals process (the average is abotu 10 years, way too long).

It is this appeals process which makes the death penatly more expensive than a lifetime incarceration.

My thoughts,

Matt

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moe dank
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 990)
posted June 25, 2000 07:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moe dank   Click Here to Email moe dank     Edit/Delete Message
In a world where i was god he would have been killed right there in court after the sentencing. There would be electric chairs right next to the exit. He wouldnt have been killed for shooting that guy or the arm robberies either. He would have been killed because he raped a woman at gun point. Do we really need to hear the rest of what this waste of human life did. That would be enough in my world right there.

I agree people sit on death row to long. So we kill some innocent people by frying them in court, but thats life. I would rather kill 10 innocent people than let a guilty one go free.

------------------
"if you are not a rebel by age 20 you have no heart. If you have no industry by age 30 you are an idiot." Jackson
www.alternativegarden.com

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bignate73
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 1047)
posted June 25, 2000 08:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bignate73   Click Here to Email bignate73     Edit/Delete Message UIN: 65081685
either way 19 years is a long time for taxpayers to be paying for his ass to sit on death row. shit or get off the pot basically.

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BackDoc
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 245)
posted June 25, 2000 11:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BackDoc     Edit/Delete Message
I'm not sure if this is pertinent to this discussion, but I'm posting this to add to the excellent point Moe made. I've seen a really intensive study done by a sociologist that summed up what is wrong with this country as far as the punishment (sentencing) portion of the legal system is concerned.
Here's a very brief summary of the comparative results:

In order for a statehood, country or province with a functioning government to have a judicial system effective in deterring crime it must have the following criteria:

1) If a crime is committed, the perpetrators will be brought to trial quickly.

2) If the perpetrators are found guilty, any due punishment will be carried out immediately.

3) If a crime is committed, the punishment received will be severe.

Putting all of this together means that criminals will be brought to justice swiftly, surely and severly.
Just my thoughts.

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Joseph_stalin
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 644)
posted June 26, 2000 12:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph_stalin   Click Here to Email Joseph_stalin     Edit/Delete Message

all the criminals except us i guess.

inmates need the time to convince the state if they are innocent. it was like that up until the 1920's, the death penalty was carried out the same day that the sentence was declared

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Pokemon
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 138)
posted June 26, 2000 01:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pokemon   Click Here to Email Pokemon     Edit/Delete Message UIN: 209.167.1458.325
19yrs of my tax money for room and board to a career criminal. That Motherfucker was lucky he's not in a Communist country. Heaven was earth, now in hell. They ought to kill his lawyers as well!!!! my $.02


a tax payer

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mightydog
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 238)
posted June 26, 2000 10:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mightydog   Click Here to Email mightydog     Edit/Delete Message
You guys know it! He pulled all that shit in this country and he got 3 hots and a got plus 19 years to jerk-off in his jail cell. We the people were NICE to him. When will you ACLU, mamby-pamby thinking people wake up! I have been working in prisons since 1992 and i swear the conditions are better in US prisons than 1/3 of the world, "free" world at that. Hell yes if he were in another country he would have got the beating of his life, and quick too. Why anyone thinks this dirt-bag should have more of a break is beyond me.

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Mr. T
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 511)
posted June 26, 2000 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mr. T     Edit/Delete Message
Im unsure of how his due process rights were violated. Please explain. If they were violated he had plenty of appeals to get his ass out of jail. If he was that guilty it is actually better that they violated his due process rights. (Supreme Court would give him a get out of jail free pass) But he would probabaly just be retried and convicted again. Many innocent men have been freed from death row on appeal. Mistakes do happen and safeguards must be in place (appeals) to prevent an irreversible mistake.
Remember, our Criminal Justice system was set up so that 10 guilty men would go free for every innocent man convicted-

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Kahn
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 505)
posted June 26, 2000 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kahn     Edit/Delete Message
I think everybody is looking at the wrong words. It says CITIZEN. That motherfucker was no citizen. He confessed to crimes we didn't get him on and he probably DID murder someone. This was a technicality and its one I could throw the switch on myself. FUCK HIM A citizen was not denied ANYTHING.

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BackDoc
Pro Bodybuilder
(Total posts: 245)
posted June 27, 2000 01:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BackDoc     Edit/Delete Message
I heard that he had his case reviewed something like 28 times. How much taxpayer money did that waste? No wonder our justice system is so backed up! If 28 times can't find an error in the first decision then how in the heck are his rights going to be violated? It seems to me that had he not been given a fair assessment some high-powered scumbag attorney would've taken the case for free. Maybe that did happen, but if he'd had a sincere point to make, it most likely would've been found by someone (provided it exists).
My opinion only---this was a case of media propaganda and sensationalism.

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