The Democrat was very impressed, and when they came to another homeless person, he decided to help. He walked over to the homeless person and gave him directions to the welfare office. He then reached into the Republican's pocket and gave the homeless person fifty dollars.

the saving & loan scandal cost 1.4 trillion dollars. thats enough money for 28 years of social welfare. no one gets pissed off about that. they all went to level 1 prisons for a few years. like i said, its just a trick to piss people off. businessmen take 3 1/2 times in social welfare & stole 1.4 trillion.
no one is mad about that.

The Republican business owners are an important part of society, depending on their type of business, of course. They pay more tax money as well; therefore, they should get more government benefits. Homeless people are useless to society and pay no taxes. That's 50 billion dollars too many.

A successful business man pays out the ass in taxes every year. He deserves as much money as he wants because it's his own money that he is putting in. Thank God that this $10,000 of which you were speaking was not split up and given to some more freeloaders.

i don't think a comparison JUSTIFIES social welfare just because we may spend more elsewhere...all it tells me is that there are many places where spending can be further cut.

Social Security accounts for over $406 billion dolars per year.

Medicare and Medicaid combine for roughly $316billion per year.

Right there is $720BILLION in Social Welfare. That alone is slightly less than half the annual budget.

Defense is $290 billion. Interest on the debt is $224 bilion. That's another $514 billion.

Pensions for retired federal workers and veterans is $79billion.

The total for these programs is $1.31 TRILLION. That's almost 90% of the annual budget.

the snl scandal quote was
The goverment bail out will cost the taxpayers around $1.4 trillion dollars when it is over. www.inthe80s.com/sandl.shtml

technically, poor people do contribute to society. the money they get they put back in the economy by buying food & clothes.
its true that poor people don't directly contribute to society, but they do advance the economy. social workers to watch over them, journalists to write about them, and the products they buy all stimulate the economy.

I can tell the topic of social stratification and class issues interest you. That is very good in my opinion because I think it makes you more aware than most. If you want to read another good book on this topic, I highly suggest you read Robert Perrucci's: THE NEW CLASS SOCIETY. It's a very interesting read and it would provide you with more than enough statistics and trend analysis to back up all of your arguments. Peace.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

I don't take it as a flame. I also feel that my age is irrelevant in this argument, but if you wish to bring it in, then so be it.

I have to disagree. Not everyone will have the wind kicked out of them. That, however, depends on your definition of "having the wind kicked out of them." If your definition of "having the wind kicked out of them" is "this person lost his job... oh no boohoo." May1010 lost his job, and I don't think he started whining to the government. There is always, ALWAYS, a way out besides crying to the government.

Do you mean to tell me that cab drivers up in the big cities who barely speak English can get jobs, immature just-turned-teen brats can get jobs at supermarkets, and adults with no education can get jobs at fast food joints, but the poor can't get a job anywhere? Pardon my language, but BULLSHIT. In a nation such as this one where the government caters to the "less fortunate" (aka lazy), there is NO EXCUSE for STILL being poor despite government help. If anything, government aid should be limited to enough money to get a temporary address to keep you sheltered while you start your new job. But no, you have people living off of that shit.

Who is more worthy of my money? Myself, who has been working hard and trying to make something of myself, or some lazy bastard who does nothing but waste perfectly good oxygen and take himself into a drunken stupor nightly?

I won't answer that question. I'm sure you are intelligent enough to do so.

There's no way you can see these things coming and plan for them. Shit happens.
There's no way anybody is going to give him a job.
If he got a job, he doesn't have the clothes.
If he had the clothes, the second day he would show up wrinkled because he slept under a bridge.

The fact of the matter is simply this. You believe the poor are the problem in this country because the media wants you to. The rich won't allow any other message to exist, because they obviously don't want the current American class structure to be examined. They like where they are and they will do anything and everything in their enormous power to stay there.

They have even the most talented of us believing in this "American Dream" because they know if they get the best of "us" on their side, then they can legitimize their position and privilege to the masses.

No matter what you think you have accomplished in your life, no matter how much money you make, no matter what position you hold, all you will ever be is their help.

Unless you are born into great wealth you have about just as much a chance as becoming a member of the elite as you do in winning the lottery.

Sorry for the poor writing, It's been a long week.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

We need people to take responsibility for their OWN actions.

Compassion comes voluntarily - theft does not. If someone chooses to help someone "less fortunate" than he, then good for him and the man deserves respect. If someone chooses to spend his money on himself because HE EARNED IT HIMSELF, then good for him and the man STILL deserves respect because he went out and earned his own money instead of having someone else's forcibly removed and given to him.

By the way, what's your response in regard to the unconstitutionality of these government social programs?

It's absolutely BULLSHIT!!!For anyone to say they can't overcome being poor in this country. It's a Simple question that each person needs to answer.

Am I going to do WHATEVER it takes to get on top, or am I going to just try and get by?

If someone answers Yes they will do whatever it takes to get on top, then all they need to do is find a way. Legal, Illegal, doesn't really matter cause there is always a way. Morals and the law don't come into the picture if your desperate and have had enough of being on the bottom

It can be done. People can overcome adversity if they truly want to...

Ok this in no way refers to those that are mentaly unfit and are homeless...I am refering to the ones that have the ability to work and do not

quote:

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Originally posted by The Varnsen:
Warik i hope you don�t need help from other peeps in the future...

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I won't.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

It is ignorant to believe that institutional discrimination does not exist in America. A simple question. Why do women make less than men do for the same job? Is it because men are superior? I think not! It is called institutional discrimination. The same goes for the impoverished.

The amount of taxation on gas is ridiculous as well. Taxes on cellular phones are awful, too. I had to pay over $10 worth of tax for my cellphone bill this month. My bill went up 25% just because of "taxes!"

Just because we don't complain about it doesn't mean that it doesn't bother us.

And yes, taxes are being stolen. They are NOT contributions because they are not being given voluntarily. I don't see how anyone could see it any other way.

I work for say, 40 hours a week, but I only end up getting paid for 34, and that's if I'm lucky. How can you possibly think that something like that is civilized or even LEGAL?

Is that stealing or taking your money IN YOUR BEST INTEREST!!!

I am not against taxation itself - I am against needless taxation. I am in favor of a flat tax as Matt stated in his campaigning thread for 2004. (heh)

The government does not NEED to steal 39.6% of the wealthiest's income and trickle its way down to 15% of the poor's income to provide the country with public schools, police officers, etc. I would gladly give 10%-15% of my annual income until the day I stop working so that my country could benefit from such things... such things that *I* would benefit from as well. You think I'm going to benefit from Social Security? Lol... I'll give it to my wife for spending money or use it to wipe my ass if I run out of toilet paper. Why? Because I'm going to PLAN for my future just like any other American should.

The government is supposed to take care of the concerns of the country, not of the individuals of said country.

(By the way, my children will not be going to public schools, so, in the case of public schools, I think I would be happier keeping my tax money.)

quote:

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Originally posted by Warik:
The government is supposed to take care of the concerns of the country, not of the individuals of said country.
-Warik

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The government -by definition- has three major functions. 1). Protect society from exterior harm 2). To protect society from interior threats (including property and personal rights) 3). To protect the weak from the powerful. These are all in reference to individual protection.

If you had not had the government to protect you from the interests of the powerful, you may not have such a bright future.

To deny the government any of those rights is to deny you your freedom. What you do not want for yourself shouldn�t be inflicted upon others because you feel that you are better than they are. That is not democracy, that is an aristocracy (and what America is totally opposed to).

If more concern were put into fixing the system than fixing the individuals, a lot more progress would be made.

And I'm curious as to why no anti-Warik's-point-of-view'ers have yet to comment on the illegality of such social programs as Social Security. It doesn't have to be lengthy. You can just say: "you're right," and I'll discontinue discussion of that particular point.

The big deal is that those 3% of my tax dollars are MY dollars and if I do not want them to go towards encouraging people to be lazy, then nobody should have the right to take them from me.

In regards to that "more than 3x that goes to corporations" - I said I was against needless taxation. It's my money - not the corporations'. They get enough of my money when I buy their products. True, corporate welfare goes to better use than social welfare, but it's still a needless tax in my view.

And with that, I'm off to bed.

That assumption is typically made because rich folks typically vote Republican and poor folks typically vote Democrat. There are, of course, many exceptions. I'm sure there are many rich Democrats, but I can't see why they'd vote Democrat if they are rich.

A friend of mine once said (a smart guy too but he must have had a brain fart),"Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could have a Ferrari? Even someone like a waitress should be able to get something like that." My jaw was on the floor with after he said that. It was the most rediculous thing that he had ever said.

If I was a young student, why would I want to become a doctor, a researcher, an engineer, etc? Why would I want to bust my ass if I knew that someone with barely a high school education could have all the things that I work a thousand fold harder for? I wouldn't. If there was a system like that, I would be a personal trainer...and probably a shitty one at that. At the end of the day, I would jump into my Ferrari and drive away...because hey, "I EARNED IT". I would never go to school and there would be no reason to expand my mind. I would just live out my days waiting for the free money to roll in.

HMO's and managed care are destroying the medical community. Good job democrats, nice thinking once again. Doctors these days struggle to make a decent living. Many turn to selling supplements like Metabolife to supplement their income. It's not that they want to push supplements, but they have no choice.

Capitalism drives creativity, creates competition to produce a superior product, and gives the majority a higher standard of living. Communism and socialism create cynicism and contempt, laziness, and apathy in society.

quote:

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Originally posted by Myo-genetic:
Capitalism drives creativity, creates competition to produce a superior product, and gives the majority a higher standard of living. Communism and socialism create cynicism and contempt, laziness, and apathy in society.

So all of you spouting off this commie bullshit in this thread, wake up and accept capitalism or move to North Korea where you belong.

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You are wrong. You have been brainwashed perfectly by the ruling classes.

First of all Communism is an economic system and socialism and a type of government. You cannot use them interchangeably. For example, France/Japan/ Sweden/Denmark/Switzerland/etc are socialist countries with capitalist economies.

Second, real communism has never come to pass. Real communism is advanced communism that is installed after capitalism. That means that it happens in advanced countries with advanced telecommunications and not backward countries like Russia of 1917 and China of the 1950s.

But the fact remains that if there is not a motivation factor to push people, then there will be no forward progress. In an ideal fantasy world, maybe communism would work. But human nature is to be lazy. You can try to rationalize against it all you want, but in this case it is YOU who is wrong. There is no brainwashing by the elite class going on here. The elite know exactly why their system works. Have you ever run a business whose workers were 95% incompetent? Well I have. They were the only ones I could afford to hire at the time. While they meant well, if I was not there to hold their hand every step of the way, the business would have collapsed in less than a month. The job requires intelligence, dedication, pressure, and hard work. Why would a talented person subject themselves to something like that if they could find a job elsewhere that pays the same without the pressure? They want money for their services and should be paid for them. So those people just served as basic grunts to do rudimentry customer service and data entry. I could not trust them to do much else. So I suppose these people should be entitled to the same material wealth as an intelligent productive person. LOL. Maybe in fantasy land, but the harsh reality is that people are too quick to reproduce and leave more offspring than there are resources or funding to support them. So there is a sense of Darwinism....either be productive, or be selected against. I'm sorry if this does not agree with your humanitarian side, but it is the fact of the matter. I wish things could realistically be different also, but it's just not possible.

Back to the HMO thing. People pondering medical school are beginning to question the value of 4 years plus residency for potentially little reward, reduced patient care, and long hours. Can you blame them? Why should they stress themselves if they know that they could finish high school, get one computer certification, and run a network making the same amount of money? Well, that is what is happening these days where the most talented in our society choose the smarter path, leaving the quality of other fields such as medicine to suffer as they must lower their entrance standards.

You are using the ideals of capitalism to explain why it works well. That is not logical thought. That is cyclical and used in propaganda.

If there were no emphasis on wealth and no emphasis on accumulation (as capitalism espouses) then there would not be a lack of motivation. The lack of motivation would only come from people who believe in the capitalist ideals, not people who do not accept them.

The only reason why individualism and self-achievement is so ideal in capitalism is because it conveniently explains why 85% of all wealth in the US is owned by 0.01% of the population. That sounds more like what you are against than your precious idealistic capitalism.

Take Ross Perot. He was penniless when he first started out. Tommy Hilfiger sold jeans out of the trunk of his car, going bankrupt at least once before he got his system working. Even Warren Buffet started out working odd jobs scraping to get by while he bought his first stocks. Most musicians and artists start out as teenagers hanging out doing something they love. This is just a small sample of poor people who have bettered themselves. You have to have the stomach for business and the willingness to sacrifice comfort until conditions change for the better. In keeping with the theme of laziness and instant gratification that is the basis of human nature, that alone disqualifies over 95% of the population for a chance at true self-reliance and success.

quote:

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Originally posted by Myo-genetic:
For your argument to hold any water, you need to explain why the U.S. and similiar countries like Germany pioneer the way in computers, medicine, research, and engineering. Why do these capitalist nations make progress at a rate of 1000 fold greater than the old U.S.S.R, North Korea, and China?

Present day China, South Korea, (and Russia in the 60s-80s) have had economic growth that eclipses anything else ever seen in the Western World. China's economy is growing leaps and bounds beyond anything the US or Germany could ever dream of (although it is at a dear cost to the environment and natural resources). The Eastern Asian countries have been very strong in the last two decades. They are just catching up to the industrial and technological revolution. Only time will tell if the west is superior because of their head start.

I realize that material wealth is a felt need that is created by society. But once ingrained, it is almost impossible to remove. And even if you were to take away all the money from the wealthy and give it to the poor, within 5 years the rich would be rich once again, with the poor right back to where they started.

In the next 50 years, 95% of all population growth will occur in non-western, non-capitalist (as the west knows it) countries. That means that most people on Earth will not know the way of the west and will be pretty hard to control when they get pissed off about owning less than 1% of the wealth in the world even though they make up 87% of the population.

To accumulate and maintain wealth takes discipline and intelligence. Go out with a bunch of blue-collar workers on payday and you will see why this is so. When I first started, I had nothing. But now I am very comfortable. But then again, I am still single and at least will be childless for another 10 years. That is the key here. I deprived myself of alot so that I had the resources to start various projects. I just had the self control not to drink, smoke, eat Ramen noodles, and stay single and childless. You take the average citizen from just about anywhere and chances are that they will not have the same discipline. They fail because they make too many misc. expenses for themselves thus creating debt that limits their horizons.

I agree. I capitalist society, the smartest and strongest survive and succeed but you have more life chances (or potential for success) if you fall within certain categories. These include being white, male, and being middle to upper class.
The impact of exterior factors such as society are 90% of what makes a person act or think as they do. To deny this is to deny that man is a social creature.

Take Ross Perot. He was penniless when he first started out. Tommy Hilfiger sold jeans out of the trunk of his car, going bankrupt at least once before he got his system working. Even Warren Buffet started out working odd jobs scraping to get by while he bought his first stocks. Most musicians and artists start out as teenagers hanging out doing something they love. This is just a small sample of poor people who have bettered themselves. You have to have the stomach for business and the willingness to sacrifice comfort until conditions change for the better. In keeping with the theme of laziness and instant gratification that is the basis of human nature, that alone disqualifies over 95% of the population for a chance at true self-reliance and success.
Everyone has a chance at even minor success in a capitalistic system. They are only limited by their own human nature....not outside factors.

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I disagree. You are assuming that because one person can make it, that anyone who tries can make it. You are committing an individualistic fallacy and assuming that one person could be representative of millions even though the occurrence of a Perot or Hilfiger is One Million to One. So with your line of reasoning, any black man has the potential to become Secretary of State because Powell has made it...I think not! For every Perot that makes it, there are hundreds of thousands of men just like him that fail. The same goes for the other men you have mentioned. Social factors such as class, status, income, race, and religion do have a strong impact on your future. There will always be exceptions but MOST people are going to follow the overwhelming trend.

quote:

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Originally posted by coolhandluke:
2thick, youre gonna have to accept that fact that life is not fair. You cant punish those who have an obvious talent for working hard in order to 'even the playing field' for those who are prefectly content doin little or nothing at all....
I am well aware of the fact that some are born with very few options but I also know that there are those who give up, and those who decided they want something and go out and get it.
I dont think anyone born in the US has the right to bitch about not being able to find work and slack off.
I have a friend who was born in Azerbaijan to a woman with no limbs (thats right, samsonite; Ranger's old gf ) and I know he will go very far in life, much further than some white-trash redneck drinking 40's all day and bitchin about not making 60k a year when he doesn't have a GED. This is very fair in my opinion.

[This message has been edited by coolhandluke (edited February 24, 2001).]

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I always though you were a little crazy but this post is what has convinced me...LOL

J/K, you make a lot of sense.

It's pretty easy to have that rate of growth when you have nothing established in which to measure its relative rate of growth.

For instance, my background is from that of a rural working class family. My roommate on the other hand is from one of the wealthiest families in all of Jacksonville. I surpass him in virtually every possible skill and knowledge area you can think of; especially in terms of writing, communication skills, and computer literacy. Can you guess who already has a job after college? Not me.
He will be working for his father after college making a starting salary of 60k-70k along with full rights to his fathers business once his father retires. My roommate was also just given full ownership rights to the house that I'm currently paying rent in now. Did he deserve that? I guess it depends on your point of view, but he surely didn't work for any of that.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

Socialism is a view that society has the rights and individual rights don't really count. Look at the Clinton administration, social programs this and that. It takes a village to raise a child, on and on.

I personally view this country on a ledge, sooner or later it is bound to fall off it principles of the Constitution, and what is worse is that congress and the courts and cops are just trying to do away with the bill of rights.

I can only hope a military coup with some real level headed people spearheading it may work to straighten it out, but unfortunalely it will not happen that way. We could just end up with more control freaks than we have now in office.

I think that should be tatooed on every left wing residents forehead.

Let me tell you all a little story of a friend of mine. His name is Jeremy. Jeremy grew up with 5 brothers and sisters in a tough neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. His parents were African American who made enough just to get by. Basically Jeremy grew up with nothing. But Jeremy was a smart guy. While his siblings and their friends did poorly in school, Jeremy diligently attended class and always concentrated on his homework. He always said how he wanted to get out of his neighborhood and live in one of the lofts downtown that he drove by when riding on the bus. His dream was to go to college. He was not quite an athlete, but he thought that he might be able to get a scholarship in academics. Sure enough, he was able to get some help, but he didn't quite get enough to pay for all of the expenses he would need.
One day, a Navy recruiter was walking around his neighborhood. Jeremy recognized the uniform and went up to the man to investigate. The kindly old Chief gave Jeremy his business card and told him that he would come and visit him again the next day. Sure enough, the recruiter came by and talked with Jeremy for an hour. Jeremy said that he always wanted to go to college....but there was just not enough money. He told the recruiter that he tried in school and just wanted a way to build his future. The recruiter gave him an old ASVAB study guide and told him to work hard and do his best. So Jeremy practiced until he had all the confidence that he would do well. Sure enough, he qualified for IT training in Chicago once he got out of boot camp in Great Lakes Naval Base. The weeks of boot camp were nothing like Jeremy had ever experienced in his life. But he just listened to his bunkmate who said "Bro, never let them get into your head, cause it's all just a game". Sure enough, Jeremy graduated. It was the proudest day of his life. He carried his pride and enthusiasm into IT school and spent many sleepless nights ensuring his graduation from his 'A' school. Now he was an "IT" seaman recruit. In the next four years, Jeremy exibited a flawless performance that clearly distinguished him from his peers. As his commitment was almost up, he decided to take a look at what might await him in the civilian world. The first job Jeremy applied for, he got. $85,000 per year for a 22 year old man. Jeremy was floored when he saw that many zeros written on the offer sheet. He really didn't know exactly what to think. After so many years of just having enough to live a life of reasonable comfort, now he was rich. Within the next 5 years, Jeremy changed jobs twice, each time getting much larger offers. When he finally left his last employer, he was making about $140,000 per year. Now at age 28, Jeremy is making over $225,000 per year, as he owns his own contracting firm. And he still has not had time for college...in fact, he has an offer to teach a summer class this year.

So as you can see, the American dream is very much alive. I'm sorry for those who try to place blame on society for their lack of accomplisments. But if this kid can do it, anyone can. Jeremy was not the smartest guy...not even close. But he always kept himself busy and tried to better himself at every chance he got. Maybe the rest of the naysayers to capitalism might learn something from my old friend.

quote:

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Originally posted by Myo-genetic:

I don't even want to hear bullshit like "Oh but he is a special case". That is the worlds biggest cop-out. This guy came from nothing, and just applied himself to something, like the Navy, that is available to anyone. There is still plenty of opportunity out there. You just have to know where to look.

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You are seriously out of touch with society my friend. Your "nature" argument is flawed in so many ways that it's ridiculous. To say that those who don't make it to the top are lazy is basically the same thing as saying BLACKS, HISPANICS, AMERICAN INDIANS, WOMEN, AND ALL OTHER MINORITIES ARE LAZY. These are the people who statistically don't make it to the top. It has nothing to do with them as individuals and everything to do with institutional discrimination.
Do you actually believe that white men are at the top of the food chain because they are naturally superior? Can you actually say to me that it's their hard work, not their "hand me down" money and power that is the actual culprit.
You say the system works. I agree, the system does work.
For rich white men that is.
Believe what you want bro, but the fact is you're wrong.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

So what you're saying is that we have a system which benefits the evil white man and holds back the blacks, the hispanics, the indians, the asian, the women, the insert-anything-other-than-white-here's? Then, can you please explain why this evil system spoonfeeds the evil white man's money against his will to the blacks, the hispanics, the indians, the asians, the women, and the insert-anything-other-than-white-here's?

I know the answer, but I'll be flamed if I provide it. Maybe you could phrase it better than I would.

It comes to no suprise to me that you can't get a job after college because likely you don't even bother to read the correct way to fill out the basic application. Go be a good little sheep and FUCKING READ WHAT I SAID!!! I'm not at all suprised by the way you talk out of your ass however. You have a history on this board of putting words into peoples mouths and mis-interpretation...that is, since it is obvious that you only skim the posts. You have managed to completely discredit yourself infront of everyone by that last post.

And of course you are probably one of those who disregard the simple fact that it is WHITE PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES WHO COMPOSE THE LARGEST PORTION OF THOSE ON WELFARE OR OTHER FORMS OF GOV ASSISTANCE.

Our system is owned and operated by rich white men who have and will continue to pass their wealth down from generation to generation without giving a damn for you and I. Now does this mean that all whites are sitting pretty in the lap of luxury; hell no.
I am simply stating that while many of you believe that the poor are the ones pulling you down, you have far more reason to blame the greed and power of the rich for your problems.
Moving up is not as easy as many of you think it is. There are factors that are against you in this journey and one of them happens to be the interests of the rich and powerful. Do you believe that they want just anyone coming up through the ranks and attaining their kind of status? These people want just as much for you to fail as you do to succeed. The media, the criminal justice system, politics, and just about everything else you can think of works in favor of the wealthy.

And if there is one thing I truly believe in it's free speech. Speak your mind Warik. Don't hold back.

Myo-genetic,

How can you not expect someone to take what you said the way I did? You made it very clear that you believe in nature over nuture
and that you believe those who are most successful are the least lazy. Well is it not a fact that the idealogy of "nature" and the theories of Darwin are inherently racist and xenophobic? Is it not a fact that those who are most successful are white? And isn't it true that those same people control the media, politics, the economy, and just about every other major system of influence in the United States?
Given your argument how can you not expect me to put 2 and 2 together? You said it yourself, that those who are unsuccessful are so because they are lazy. I simply gave you the demographic of those who you consider unsuccessful. I hardly call that putting words into your mouth.

And as for your personal attack on me. Well, that was completely juvenile. I am a junior in college and my previous post was simply there as an example of the benefits the rich have regardless of their talent or intellect. I will most likely have a very good job lined up for myself after college and I'm just as sure that it will pay just as well if not better than the job my roommate is getting. All I'm saying is that I had to earn it myself, it wasn't given to me by my father.

I really have no need to defend myself against a post as ignorant as the last one you directed towards me, but I'll respond by saying FUCK YOU anyway. That kind of shit only makes you look like a dick.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

Stop dodging the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of successful minorities out there who made themselves. You know why I have the views I have? They come from talking with many of these people. Maybe if you didn't hang out with cynical losers all the time you might see the light.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kwai-Chang Caine:
Warik,

Our system is owned and operated by rich white men who have and will continue to pass their wealth down from generation to generation without giving a damn for you and I.

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You and I? Speak for yourself. I'm going to be one of those evil "rich white men who pass their wealth down from generation to generation" because I WANT to and I will dedicate my energy to accomplishing that as opposed to dedicating my energy to complaining about how everyone else has it better than I do.

Besides, why SHOULD the evil rich white men give a damn for you or I? I'm not complaining that Bill Gates's children are going to be set for life after he passes without me getting a penny. WTF have I ever done for Bill Gates? He owes me nothing.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kwai-Chang Caine:
I am simply stating that while many of you believe that the poor are the ones pulling you down, you have far more reason to blame the greed and power of the rich for your problems.

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My only problem is the knowledge that, several years into the future, I will be giving over a third of my income to the government for no good reason. Who is to blame for that? The evil rich white men? The evil rich white men don't put the tax-happy Democrats into office. That job is left to the "good poor non-white men and women" (as you describe them).

And, in reality, they aren't really "pulling" me down at all - nor will they ever. The 33% of my income that I will be surrendering is more than 100% of theirs, and my remaining 67% is enough to keep myself and my family happy for the rest of our lives. Again, I don't mind giving up the money, but I *DO* mind giving it to those who are not deserving of it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kwai-Chang Caine:
Moving up is not as easy as many of you think it is. There are factors that are against you in this journey and one of them happens to be the interests of the rich and powerful. Do you believe that they want just anyone coming up through the ranks and attaining their kind of status?

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I will agree 100% with you on this point. Moving up is NOT as easy as many of you think it is. You need motivation, ambition, intelligence, perseverance, and a willingness to work harder instead of complaining about how unfortunate you are. Wealth doesn't come by luck - it comes by work. Sure, many children today will be well provided for by their rich parents, but when you backtrack throughout the family line, eventually you will find a generation that was just as poor as the poor folks you are speaking in favor of. How do you think they got wealthy? Did their parents help them out? Nope, they were poor too. It's called WORK!

quote:

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Originally posted by Kwai-Chang Caine:
And if there is one thing I truly believe in it's free speech. Speak your mind Warik. Don't hold back.

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Ok, the evil system spoonfeeds the evil white man's money against his will to the blacks, the hispanics, the indians, the asians, the women, and the insert-anything-other-than-white-here's because the evil system is NOT controlled by the hard working "evil rich white men," but is controlled by the lazy "good poor non-white folks" who put the politicians in office.

Thank you, that is all.

here is my only question. just answer this. dont go into some detailed explanation of this and that. i just want a straight answer.

why should I (a 20 year old) work over 70 hours a week in 2 different jobs so that i can pay my way through college and the other bills that i have. and why do i have to give my hard earned money to someone who is doing nothing to better their own life

i know why i do this NOW! so please just answer the question.

I don't know what his background is, nor do I care. All I know is that his posts exhibit a deep hatred for "the man" who he automatically correlates with the entire caucasian race.

What a classical example of reverse racism.

I knew a guy back in my high school who stated that it is impossible for a black person to be racist. I asked him if that this entitled him to say racist remarks about others. He said that nothing he could say is racist because he is the one oppressed. Funny how this guy never went to class, did his homework, or much else for that matter except complain about how he was oppressed. I asked one of my black friends about this attitude. He shook his head and looked at the floor. My friend then said that there are more like that other guy than he cared to think about. He also said that his race embarrassed him much of the time. He asked me what I thought about the Klan. And upon seeing the look of disgust on my face, he immediately broke in and said, "That's exactly how I feel when I have to listen to guys like that. I'm proud to be a black man, but embarrassed that someone might generalize me with him just because I'm black."

But I refuse to be embarrassed that I work hard and am successful just because Mr. Kwai-Chang Caine states that it automatically makes me an "evil white man".

I was cynical back in high school when I tried to get scholarships and was denied for 100% of them. I watched as my middle class minority friends all got free rides while I, living in a single parent household, got the door slammed in my face even though my grades were much better and my family had less. My mother told me that I shouldn't be suprised since I am white and male. She told me that nothing will ever be handed to me, and I had to out and work for it (and she is a hard-core Democrat).

Did I get mad at this? No. A little frustrated, maybe. But it taught me discipline. I watched as 50% of my friends squandered away their scholarships due to poor academic performance. Right now I am not even using my college degree. I worked for a year in a related field and saved enough money to start my own company. During that year, I just worked. I went out maybe 4 times that year. I ate $2-3 worth of food per day, bought almost no new clothes, and had 2 beers all year. I watched my friends buy expensive cars and eat out every day. They were satisfied to be middle class. But I was not. I took my money after that year and started my company.

If society is to blame, then blame the fact that we make it too easy to spend and very difficult to save. How is a blue-collar worker ever going to save a dime if he goes to tittie bars every payday? But then again, this is where the nature part comes in. Some people just cannot control their primal urges to chase girls and drink no matter what their upbringing. They are also too in love with TV, sports, and all the other distractions out there. Those who are successful like all of those things too. But they are intelligent enough to know their limits. They realize that instead of that new Mustang, maybe they should put that money in a mutual fund and drive a Neon. Instead of renting an apartment, they buy a house. Instead of going to the strip clubs, they go to the gym and stare at the thong-butt goddesses. I could go on and on. But the people who start with nothing learn the lesson of sacrifice early on and then use those principles to the fullest extent possible.

And the best part of all this is that my business holds its money in overseas accounts. And since I spend less than 30 days per year in the U.S., all of these people who spend their lives with their hands out will never see a dime from me...unless I give to charity. Maybe a worthy cause...like the rainforests. At least the rainforests deserve to be preserved. So I have no personal vested interest in this argument. I state my opinion as an outsider looking in who has been there and done that and I speak from my experiences and that of others.

I am not the one who started coining the term "evil rich white man" around here. I only bring race up as an issue to state demographics and social truths. If there were true equality I wouldn't have to link economic success and wealth to race, simply because in reality there would be an equal percentage of it for all races. This too goes for sex or any other type of classification.
Furthermore, I am white. Does this mean that I should let myself be oblivious to what is going on around me? I think not.
To ignore institutional discrimination is to ignore the truth. I will not allow myself to do that. Just because you or I can make it in this world does not mean everyone can. I don't know why this is so hard for many of you to understand. Yes, there are many people who can climb out of just about any hole they might find themselves in, but individuals are not the measuring device of an entire society. If any one of you ever have the opportunity to take a college level sociology course, I think it would benefit you greatly. You'll be surprised about what you learn.

Now about the personal remarks. There is no call for personal attacks around here. If you disagree, then do so civilly. It is tasteless to attack, discredit, and marginalize me as a person, just because you disagree with what I say. The topic here is not whether or not you like Kwai-Chang Caine, so let's keep it from degenerating to that. Respect me as I have respected you.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

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Originally posted by Myo-genetic:
What does "2Thick" mean anyways? Your skull? This kid comes from the bottom of the barrell. What is the point of even arguing with you? I've proven my point, and yet you continue with your paper-thin excuses. Why can't you just admit that the only thing limiting in the United States is ones motivation? Sure maybe it takes alot longer in some cases, like with my friend (4 years of living at the poverty line from 18-22) while he was building experience in the Navy. But he made it. You can't deny that there are programs out there like the military that give opportunities to disadvantaged youth. It is up to them to go get it. If they don't want to go through the trouble of boot camp, work to get that scholarship in highschool, or what have you, it's not my problem. I'm not responsible for your laziness.

So quit wasting my time with your nonsense. This is the last time I'm going to say this: those 2% who make it are willing to do whatever it takes. The other 98% are just content to survive with their hand out and whine, bitch, and cry when they don't get their way. Some children never grow up.

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Yes, my skull is too thick. It is so thick that I have two graduate degrees and I am working on my PhD. I assume you are in the military (or have that line of thought) so I wouldn't expect you to understand what I am saying.

BTW- Do not bother responding because I will be too thick to reply to your "enlightened" words of wisdom.

And I can't believe that you resort to listing your "credentials" as if that increases your credibility in this topic!!! I envision some little 4 year old stomping his foot on the floor saying, "I AM SMART!! LOOK AT ME!! I GOT AN OUTSTANDING ON MY SCIENCE FAIR PROJECT!!" And you are no better than those writers in the various bodybuilding rags who, while writing about physiology, list their extensive list of credentials. Then you later come to find out that these writers have a Ph.D. in english or zoology. This hardly qualifies them as an authority in such a different field.

I have an very extensive education as well. But I don't go around waving it in the faces of those who I disagree with. They say that the best teacher is experience. Any employer will tell you that experience is far greater than any college education. You obviously missed that little tid-bit about life. My knowledge in this field comes from experience with friends, family, and others who I talk to on the street. I've probably met over 200 self-made people in my life. They all came from nothing. And they echo my sentiment.

So by all means don't answer. I wouldn't want the "mighty" 2Thick to have to waste his precious time. I'm sure you need this time to give out your pathetic low dose cycle advice over at the anabolic board.

-Warik

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quote:

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Originally posted by GenetiKing:
Myo-Genetic and Warik for Pres and Vice in 2004!

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Change the order of the names and we might have a good idea on our hands. =)

-Warik

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