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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

Alltogether-----Not unless the national average goes up, They are all about 4'5" tall and about 10 of them might weigh 200lbs.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

Would the rest of the world stop and help us. Most likely not. When the Chinese attacked during Korea the other UN armies did not do much to help the US. In fact, the US Marines had to fight their way 60 miles during the dead of winter to retreat. It was hailed as the greatest military feat ever.

Vietnam, while we had no business being there, the chinese were regular participants, the rest of the world didn't really care.

I worked for Boeing for almost 6 years, one of my assignments was stress analysis for the 737 next generation aircraft. The chinese airlines XIH had bought a ton of these planes. The equipment that I was analyzing was considered sensitive and they would not tell me what it was or was for. They wouldn't even tell me where the cg was.

Remember how Hitler moved his troops into positon? He used civilian transport planes, to move his troops disguised as traveler's on business and vacation. Once he had them in place, pow he had the countries without even firing a shot. All that accomplished with the Treaty of Versaille in place.

Now, I don't know much about the average chinese person, but I am sure they don't have a lot of money and cannot afford to fly somewhere, let alone be allowed to leave the country. So, I ask you what would be the best way to get your troops over here? Have you noticed how the chinese population has increased dramatically over the years? They are being educated by us, trained by them and at some point they will have enough to stage an attack.

This is about the only way they could get over here without being stopped. If they tried to fly, we would shoot them down, try ships we sink 'em. Try over land through Alaska, we stop 'em cold.

Why was Clinton and others so hell bent on getting China most favored nation status, into the WTO and so forth? Why was Clinton/Gore taking campaign money from the Chinese Army? Why was Clinton/Gore, giving them satellite technology?

We would be naive to think that just because we got some high tech toys and are the big boys for now, that we are untouchable and the rest of the world we just run to our rescue. Please, The biggest threats I see are the Chinese, Russians, North Koreans, and Iraq and terrosists.

If we don't wake up we are gonna get fist fucked in the worst way!

I'll try to help the thread. Remember your audience though. We are not international relations majors. Would you go to s foreign policy board and ask about bodybuilding? But I digress....

The only way China is a REAL threat is if we were to try a land invasion, or if there were another Korean conflict. A land invasion of China is preposterous.

Chesty, you're right that in ground combat they could overwhelm us with numerical superiority. But there will NEVER be a ground invasion of China.

Our militaries are on different levels. You ever hear about the Chinese Air Force? Nope. How about all those Chinese aircraft carriers? Nope. Yes, they have "the bomb" but unless a few Chinese are going to carry it to Washington, it doesn't matter.

They lack the economic and social infrastructure to sustain a war. If we were at war, then all our NATO allies would support us, and foreign investing in China would, for the time being, decrease noticeably. Their exports would fall way off.

What other industry do they have? Rice farming? Come on. It's the third world.

Another good point: 2/3 of the country is an uninhabitable desert. Therefore, 1.15 billion people (96% of the population) are living an area slightly larger than the original 13 colonies. So an air campaign would decimate (like millions a day) the population. We could lob naval gunfire in and kill hundreds of thousands per day, while blockading any attempt at imprts or exports.

This would create two problems: What to do with the bodies? Mass cremations? The hospitals and doctors would immediately be overwhelmed with wounded, who would pour in literally by the millions. (we're not talking 1,000 here, but millions a week who need, but can't get treatment)

The other problem, as result of the overflow of wounded, is the creation of even less habitable conditions in the cities...already they are poorly nourished for the most part.. now they would have truly nothing - no place to live, no food, NOTHING.

Watch the movie Amerika. It is very enlightening.

Consider the concept of a "total war", i.e. naval blocakde, economic cutoff, continuous bombing, systematic destruction of their infrastructure - this is not something the US has done since World War 2.

Given that precept, even if they had equipped subs (which they may, although they would have to cross the Pacific), the subs would never get out of port. Subs can't go deeper than a few hundred feet.

Maybe they could do a sneak attack, but crossing the Pacific undetected is improbable. Also, why attack us? Our consumers and investors are building that country.

I'm pretty sure they don't have a missile that will go 12,000 miles. I'm out of the Army now, so my knowledge of these things has faded a bit.

Force projection is something in which no country can even remotely approach the US.

I read Colin Powell's autobiography a few years back, in it he reprinted a letter that he gave to Saddam's ambassador at the UN, detailing what would happen to his country if they went chemical...it was a fucking long list!

But we have to understand that it would mostly depend on the politcs...

I don't think we'd when using tear gas and rubber bullets.

Most military members would be afraid of war. Not because of death. Beacuse if they made a mistake their own Leaders would sell them out to CNN.

Matt, depending upon the technology, subs can go done more than a few hundred feet. They were doing that in WWII. I would say by now we at least have subs that can hit a 1000 feet or more. It is nothing more than a long pressure vessel.

I would say the odds of it happening are around 50/50. Sooner or later we will be in a total war and whomever starts it the entire world will be involved before it is over.

While I was a gang deputy the arming of gangs was one of our concerns.

Folks it may be coming. Our you ready?

I think they are a real threat and I think its a joke that they are in the WTO...I really don't care how many people live there and how much buying power they might posses. They Treat their people like shit and point fingers at everyone else's fault and not admitting to their own.

i think the member countires of NATO would probably chip in if their was a fight though...because if they didn't, without the U.S. we might as well put our heads between our legs...

And i think it will be very soon (if not now) that china gets true ICBM capability (the missle technology you gave them, and the nuclear research should help!). But their navies are shit (-er than NATO's), and their airforce probably isn't as advanced as yours to say the least (i think its huge though). but give it some time and you've got cause to be worried. i think to misunderestimate them as a superpower is unwise but providing they adhere to the nuclear deterent NATO's packing, i doubt they have the ability to get a large enough force ont your shores.for now.

Russia is paying much of their fighting force in SAUSAGES. It was divulged that an NCO in the Russian Army makes 4 pounds of sausage per month. This is not a joke. Russia couldn't even defeat Chechnya or take back Grozny. They do, allegedly, possess some warfighting hardware, but it is poorly maintained and not mission ready, like their troops.

When we fought Desert Storm, the threat against Saddam if he "went chemical" was to bomb the dams on the Tigris and Euphrates and flood Baghdad. Similar warfighting techniques against China and India would render them impotent quickly. It wouldn't be good CNN stuff, but it would work.

The US has an war machine capable of unleashinghell on an enemy. We haven't cranked it up in a while, but the rust would shake off quickly. Unparalelled force projection.

More importantly, we have an economic infrastructure that no other country can remotely approach, so we could sustain our war machine.

and that thang about the former USSR was true..apparently they tried launching a missle as a test and it hit a buliding in one of their own citites and demolished it.

If you look back at all the sensitive information and equipment that Slick Willie Clinton gave China it is a very sobering thought.

I agree that we do generally have an attitude of arrogance.

But I'll play out your scnario: China attacks an aircraft carrier, while the carrier is near China. Now, aircraft carriers do not move alone. they are in czarrier groups that protect it -battleships, destroyers and such. So the likelihood that a carrier could be struck is small...these groups have sophisticated anit-submarine detection devices.

But if it happened: It is unlikely that the carrier could be sunk before the sub was destroyed. After that, the planes would launch and attck the mainland, and the other ships in the group would unleash naval gunfire on the mainland.

Remeber China's population density - 96% of the population lives in one-third of the country. So just from the firepower of one battle group, China is staring at 150 million dead Chinese. (They have cities with populations approaching 100 million)

Are they willing to do that? Is the US willing to commit to a total war at that point?

I hope it doesn't happen, ever. But if it does, the US could emerge victorious, quickly. I'm not saying it out of arrogance. I'm a vet and I know many guys that would be involved in the campaign...it's the last thing I want to see. But our economic infrastructure is so powerful it could render their personnel advantage meaningless.

China would cease to exist as a physical entity, if Russia attempted to help them, Russia would cease to exist. Of course, Russia would cause extensive nuclear damage to us before it is over, but if someone decides to take us over, they will become extinct very shortly afterwords.

Could you imagine the sight of millions of Chinese civilian casualties on CNN and how it would sway public opinion in this day and age?

IG

Putting aside the "divided" nation. Do you believe 10k dead chinnese would mean as much to the American people vs 1 dead U.S. soldier? I doubt it very much...Divided or not and reguardless what CNN might show I would be willing to bet that Americans as a majority and probably awhole would rather see 100million dead chinesse then to see Any of our troops die.

I was venting a little and didn't take the time to elaborate. It kills me the common sense measures that the upper echelons of the military ignore. We were discussing the Cole attack at work and how it could have been easily thwarted. We pull into port with the attitude we are a big ship, and we are Americans, who would dare fuck with us? That is when we get bit in the ass. I was told from an individual at work (Navy guy) who says we pull into ports in the middle east with such disregard for simple security procedures that it made the terrorist attack almost too easy. It upsets me when the policy makers deem the lower enlisted as so easily expendable as to ignore simple security such as setting up controlled access to the ship.

Why do you keep asking political, philosophical questions on this board?

I've read 2 of your posts in the last 5 minutes and one was about the libertarian party and now this.

Fow all we know, you are a Chinese agent here to contaminate our minds.

go ahead and answer the question. But don't be a dork.

Perhaps I will start a post about him. Or maybe I'll just continue to clutter the board with the usual social, political, and philosophical garbage that I usually post. God forbide a person post something that doesn't relate to a weekend fight or a protein fart. I apologize for not meeting your needs as a reader Crazythug; please accept my most sincere apology. I pledge to do my best to meet your ever so high standards from now on. When someone such as yourself raises the bar so high, it is only natural that I should follow suit. Again, please accept my deepest apologies Crazythug. I would be heartbroken to lose you as a reader.

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"There is no shame in losing...Only winning without honor."

I agree they won't get the 2008 Olympics. But I am not sure how much longer they can keep their people repressed beofre they just explode.

Chesty, do you honestly think that all of the chinese migrating and/or being born and raised here have "an ultimate goal" in mind? Or that they are in direct contact with the mainland? Please..... Those people are so fucking glad to be out of there it's not even funny.

The thought that the chinese might fly soldiers into the U.S. is fucking ridiculous. Fighting a war takes supplies. Lots and lots of supplies. There is a reason no one has attacked the U.S. and that reason is: The logistical support necessary to sustain a war against the U.S. on U.S. soil requires resources no one but the U.S. possesses.

The chinese have ICBM's that can hit the U.S. by the way, and they have nuclear warheads.

It is in China's best interest to work with the U.S. and other western nations and they know this. China is ever-increasingly becoming more and more capitalistic. Even though the current government is communist they are quite visibly becoming more and more "western" in terms of trade and social trends as a people.

Anyways, the threat is less than you would think. That's all hysteria.

china has alot more to gain by working with the u.s and the west.i cant believe you people dont see that???
instead of developing our country lets spend every penny we have fighting a hopeless war?
duh???????