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I am not brilliant, but, far from stupid. When I was hunting around for colleges with my phat SAT scores (upper 1300's (those tests are bullshit, imho)), I initially wanted to study education. However, after getting a whif of their crappy salaries, I thought computers to be a better choice.

I still feel teaching is my "calling." It is unfortuanate that I am far to callow to accept it...

If you want to raise teachers and police salaries then you need to raise PROPERTY TAXES!!!

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THE AVERAGE COP SALARY UP HERE AFTER 5 YEARS IS $72,000. This is silly. ANd they don't have anything to do. I see them riding around with only one cop in the car....you'd never see that in NY city.

TEACHERS *START* AT AN AVERAGE OF $44K, AND AFTER 10 YEARS, AVERAGE $85K. That too is ridiculous. Yet there is no merit based pay and the union has unreasonable power.

Time to bring these numbers down.

This is all possible because annual property tax on Long Island can exceed $50,000.

Computer people are underpaid. What's $135K a year when thee companies that use you earn that in a second?

Techies are the future. Soon we will be invading the classrooms too.

I know it sounds like I am rampling, but I feel very strongly about this issue. The only thing that I agree with is that the process of providing raises needs to be revamped and the tenure process needs to be looked at.

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The fact that my starting salary in a few years is going to be around $50,000 is absolutely ludicrous.

-Warik

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A) Maybe they don't WANT to work in that field! Maybe they WANT to go home at 5:00 to their families. Maybe they want something more stable and work with more interesting people sho share their own passions. Or maybe, god forbid, they are happy doing what they are doing!

B) Why do you assume that people's present careers are not challenging!? They are perhaps MORE challenging. And there are always more lucrative careers. At a point, you have to stop keeping up with the Jones's and live your life like you want.

And I think that to an extent, you still need to work your way up. I started my career before computers were so big, and have worked my way up to upper management, and I am very proud of that!!! I am starting to work with some of the more techical parts of my field, but I still would not call it a tech job. And I don't make big bucks and never will. But I am still well-respected here at work. And I haved lots of energy left for my bodybuilding, etc.

My French teacher really got me to love the language, took me to France, took our French club to Quebec (from SC!) each spring break, and I ended up majoring in it in college and getting my MA in French lit and almost my Phd. (And not even thinking about how much I was gong to make. And I'm glad I didn't. )Of course, all that is useless in my curent career, but in living in France and bumming around Europe with $20 in my pocket, studying in depth some amazing literature, and teaching at Vanderbilt, I got this spiritual base that has largely made me what I am. I'd do it all again. All thanks to Lollie Eykyn at Ft. Johnson High School.

And another teacher got me reading Faulkner and a whole world of serious literature opened up for me, one that I continue to explore with wonder.

And so forth.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay2:
Somehow, I just don't feel the same way about the guy who wrote part of the code for one of the features on some software I use.

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have you read some of the linux source code? some of that shit is pretty inspirational to me.
I agree that teachers are underpaid, but I also agree that I like getting paid what I do and for the amount of hours I put in, I think I deserve what I get paid.

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My little sister's teacher's idea of educating her students is briefly "explaining" something in class and then assigning several HOURS of homework each night. My little sister is pretty much doing homework from the time she gets home until she goes to bed, with just enough time for dinner. She is being taught nothing. The only things that she learns are the things that *I* have to teach her because her teacher failed to explain it sufficiently in class.

"You or I would not last a week in front of a class of 3rd graders." Sorry, speak for yourself. My sister is a third grader and in 10 minutes, I can accomplish with her what her teacher didn't accomplish in 6 and a half hours. Why don't I become a third grade teacher? I don't want to, and I have the skill and talent to do something better.

Maybe when President Dubya's education plan goes into full effect, the two beautiful words "teacher accountability" will finally put some worthy teachers in the classroom. Until then, I have no sympathy nor care for a teacher's salary aside from that of a select few, all of whom, sadly, can be counted on only one hand. (And I don't need to use all of that hand's fingers).

-Warik

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first off... they dont work 7 months a year.. who has a five month summer? they were 9... and while they are working, its not even close to a 40 hour week... they do that in the classroom alone. then they have homework, papers, and tests to grade... they usually buy their own equipment cuz schools are too cheap to pay for shit.

COPS PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE EVERY DAY!!! thats worth less then a computer geek? PLEASE!!!!!! if all the cops said "fuck you" and walked, you better believe your asses would be changing your tune...

where would you be if teachers said "fuck it"? maybe they didnt want to teach YOU cuz of the pay? maybe NOBODY wanted that job.... uh, you wouldnt be able to say computer let alone spell it or use one.

i'm not knocking what you guys do for a living, i'm just saying that some people are more important to society as a hole... (here comes the "where would we be without computers" bullshit, so let me answer first). if it wasnt for education, you the computer wouldnt exist... people never would have had the knowledge to improve on anything.

keep kidding yourselves and say cops dont mean shit and teachers dont mean shit and they make what they make so fuck em. THOSE are noble professions...

I certainly did not say they teaching isn't a noble profession. It is.

Also, in NY, teachers work 194 days including orientation. After the first week in June, high school teachers teach no classes here - they simply grade tests.
And - if we forget the two weeks off for Christmas, the week-plus for Easter, the week for "Winter Recess" (wish my job had that), and allow for a "9 month work year", that isn't too bad.

I'm in total support of paying quality teachers quality pay. But not the shitty ones. How do you (or anyone) justify a "wholesale raise" like you are suggesting?

Warik's point about paying all teachers the same is excellent. Those who should get more, cannot, because the lousy ones are against merit based pay.

COPS:

There are always programs about "putting more cops on the street". If we reduced the number of cops doing traffic patrol by 75%, there would be a glut of "crime fighters".

How about not paying all teachers equally and paying based on teaching ability and student performance? Isn't that logical? Do you think IT people get paid lots of money if they suck at their jobs? If anything, most teachers are lucky that they can do such a terrible job and still get paid.

Pay more taxes? If less teachers made more money than they were supposed to, we could pay LESS taxes and teacher pay would still be fair.

As for the police, there are more than enough police officers on the road. A cop is not Superman. He doesn't sit there driving around in his patrol car and hear "help someone help!" with his super hearing and speed his way over to save everybody with loud bright sirens. The problem is not with the number of law enforcement officials, but, like with teachers, the quality of their work.

If the police would stop pulling over people driving 2mph above the speed limit and worried about the people who severely breaking the law and endangering others, THEN the streets would be safer. It doesn't stop at the police, though. Our justice system is laughable.

I find it funny how people can just say "we need more teachers" and "we need more cops" and "lets pay everyone more and pay IT people less" without realizing that it's really NOT that simple.

-Warik

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quote:

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Originally posted by madbomber31:
seriously... teachers and cops are the most over looked yet have the most profound effect on society... computer folks dont deserve the money they make... they sit on the net all day long doing jack shit...

editorial for the day.

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for the last few replies.... how bout re-reading what i wrote.... and then tell me how you jumped from A to R without anything in between.

I agree that teaching is generally altruistic. It isn't big bucks - my sister does it.....and I am an IT guy so I know about the pay disparity.

In principle, I agree with you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Warik:
The skill and talent required to be a successful teacher or police officer is not even REMOTELY comparable to the skill and talent required to be a successful computer scientist or computer engineer. If anything, computer people should be making more.

The fact that my starting salary in a few years is going to be around $50,000 is absolutely ludicrous.

-Warik

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Dude, take it from me, teachers deserve way more loot than you and I will make if you're in IT. Yeah it's not the easist work (Information Technology) but you're not dealing with murders, drunks, and assholes if you're a cop, or fucking idiot kids who don't give a fuck in schools that are falling apart if you're a teacher.

I work for a Big 6 consulting firm and there are just as many idiots that I work with are there are in regular society. Knowing computers or networking is not rocket science trust me.

Can you believe that I don't even know most of the important events in history because my history teacher wouldn't shut up about the Holocaust just because he was Jewish? It's an important time in history but it's not the only item in the curriculum! I can't even name all of the participants of World War I.

That's public education, buddy. Underpaid teachers? Surely you jest.

-Warik

quote:

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Originally posted by madbomber31:
by the way... for everyone who thinks teachers are just there... and so many are no good at their job... what did/do/are you gonna do when you have kids? your gonna trust them to go to these people who are not good teachers.... why????????????????

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I agree that not all teachers deserve to make more money -- the lazy asses who do nothing more than show up continue making crappy wages. However, the ones who do produce results and bust their ass tryin to make a difference in these kids lives should be making more. In fact, they should be making more than those "IT" people who simply sit on their ass and take up space.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sxjunky:
[B]

I work for a Big 6 consulting firm and there are just as many idiots that I work with are there are in regular society. Knowing computers or networking is not rocket science trust me.

B]

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The more you talk, the more it becomes apparent that you really don't know a whole lot about either computers or networking.

Big 6 firms are a breeding ground for mediocre work. You can hide behind the company name, bill people, and never really have to prove anything. It's "Big 6" guys like you that make true knowledge valuable. Keep it up.

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Originally posted by MattTheSkywalker:

The more you talk, the more it becomes apparent that you really don't know a whole lot about either computers or networking.

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Wow. You have the Big 6 attitude down pat. Clients must really think they are getting somebody great when they get you.