You hate someone. A lot. A whole lot.

You want him or her dead - very dead.

Assume you can personally terminate this person's life and there is a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT GUARANTEE that NO ONE will find out and there will NOT be ANY negative consequences. Your life will not be effected negatively in any way resulting from this killing.

Now, ask yourself this:

Would you kill this person? If not, why? You won't get in trouble for it. You're not going to Hell for it (since you don't believe in it, remember?)

Pondering is cool.

-Warik

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Assume that you can do whatever the hell you wanted, why should you be worried of anything? move your way up the latter, rob a few banks, steal a plane, and leave the country to some unknown caribean island and screw the native women to your heart's content! what's stopping you from doing this??? fear? fear of what? being arrested? big deal? just kill your way out again. No consequences remember? what if you get shot? big deal? you die, and there's nothing, you just dissapear, so why even bother living?? just speed up the process and finish yourselves! you won't even remember you did such a thing. Anything you have done in your life means absolutely BULLSHIT! because then every single one of us when we die will have absolutely no recollection of anything!!! SO, what's your answer to this???

quote:

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Originally posted by Future One:
Assume that you can do whatever the hell you wanted, why should you be worried of anything? move your way up the latter, rob a few banks, steal a plane, and leave the country to some unknown caribean island and screw the native women to your heart's content! what's stopping you from doing this??? fear? fear of what? being arrested? big deal? just kill your way out again. No consequences remember? what if you get shot? big deal? you die, and there's nothing, you just dissapear, so why even bother living?? just speed up the process and finish yourselves! you won't even remember you did such a thing. Anything you have done in your life means absolutely BULLSHIT! because then every single one of us when we die will have absolutely no recollection of anything!!! SO, what's your answer to this???

(This is where the BS posts begin, where most of you ignore the scenario I have portrayed to you, and just say something meaningless and totally non-relevant...)

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Well this certainly isn't a bullshit post on my part. what you are describing is exactly why religion was brought about. go and find some political science books and stop sounding so naive. the whole point of religion is to give the people that have shitty lives and nothing to live for, something to live for.
For me, I beleive in science, when I die, that is it. There is absolutely zero, nada, zilch evidence of any God - so I don't believe. easy as that. I have no desire to go around killing anyone, b/c that won't solve any of my problems. and if it did solve my problems, then say I eventually get caught - I would then get sent to "pound me in the ass" prison. I have no desire to be anally raped daily.
so say I do what you say to do and just "kill my way out" - have you ever seen a prison. unless there are a shitload of you like in Texas, there are guys with "guns" whereas you don't have one. so they "shoot" you.
for me, I have something to live for - I enjoy my life, I live it like this is my only life, and I am successful. if I were down and out, I may do what you propose. but never will I ever think, well, if I'm good, in the "afterlife" there will be some dude that will decide if I was good or not, and then maybe I'll get it good, or shit - even worse. even worse - damn, I'd better straighten out - this sure sucks now - what would even worse be?

religion is a way to control all the fuck up dipshits that are out there. for those of us that are under control and smart enough to get by, religion is a waste of time and money.
I personally feel Tool said it best:
"Choices always were a problem for you.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow,
what you need is someone strong to use you..like me, like me.
If you want to get your soul to heaven, trust in me. Don't judge or question.
You are broken now, but faith can heal you. Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Let me lay my holy hand upon you.
My Gods will become me. When he speaks out, he speaks through me. He has needs
like I do. We both want to rape you.
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes and blind me with your light and your lies."

if you don't get that - read "A Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan and maybe it will blow your mind.
there is a reason that 98% of all the intelligent people in the world don't believe in religion.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" - Marx

1. pumping illegal shit into our body
2. having premarital sex
3. gay

Which are all against christ's word, so we're all going to hell anyways.

quote:

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Originally posted by HappyScrappy:
Well this certainly isn't a bullshit post on my part. what you are describing is exactly why religion was brought about. go and find some political science books and stop sounding so naive. the whole point of religion is to give the people that have shitty lives and nothing to live for, something to live for.
For me, I beleive in science, when I die, that is it. There is absolutely zero, nada, zilch evidence of any God - so I don't believe. easy as that. I have no desire to go around killing anyone, b/c that won't solve any of my problems. and if it did solve my problems, then say I eventually get caught - I would then get sent to "pound me in the ass" prison. I have no desire to be anally raped daily.
so say I do what you say to do and just "kill my way out" - have you ever seen a prison. unless there are a shitload of you like in Texas, there are guys with "guns" whereas you don't have one. so they "shoot" you.
for me, I have something to live for - I enjoy my life, I live it like this is my only life, and I am successful. if I were down and out, I may do what you propose. but never will I ever think, well, if I'm good, in the "afterlife" there will be some dude that will decide if I was good or not, and then maybe I'll get it good, or shit - even worse. even worse - damn, I'd better straighten out - this sure sucks now - what would even worse be?

religion is a way to control all the fuck up dipshits that are out there. for those of us that are under control and smart enough to get by, religion is a waste of time and money.
I personally feel Tool said it best:
"Choices always were a problem for you.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow,
what you need is someone strong to use you..like me, like me.
If you want to get your soul to heaven, trust in me. Don't judge or question.
You are broken now, but faith can heal you. Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Let me lay my holy hand upon you.
My Gods will become me. When he speaks out, he speaks through me. He has needs
like I do. We both want to rape you.
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes and blind me with your light and your lies."

if you don't get that - read "A Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan and maybe it will blow your mind.
there is a reason that 98% of all the intelligent people in the world don't believe in religion.

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You took the words right out of my mouth If there is a god like you said Future one just take one look at the world. He sure isn't doing a good job. Actually I think he's a total fuck up...

sure, it is a complex procress but it probably goes something like this: restore telemeres + reverse free radical damage = immortality. (grossly simplified but whatever)

next onto your "why do you give a shit about life then?" rant. my question to you is why do you give a shit about life when this life on earth means jack shit. why not just eat chocolate all day since if you die, big deal, you get to go to heaven. i know people who are exactly like this, if they were atheist they would be 10x more motivated in life.

as far why not kill people, well i still can respect life despite the fact i am an atheist. i go by the rule of "treat others the way you would like to be treated". i would not do irreversible harm to another knowing it could come right back at me. if that was our logic, the entire world would be in chaos.

Person A lives in a house where he is brought up to be a christian. he is encouranged to go to church and not forced, and is given just the right amount of slack as to not be pushed away from it. he happens to stay away from secular science as much by coincidence as effort, and therefore never discovers the truth that it is all a crock of shit.

Person B has religion shoved down his throat every day of his life. his life is destroyed and he develops a hatred for religion like no other. on top of this he studies secular science looking for an answer and finds it.

Future One: is this fair? is it fair that someone could be raised in a household where 99% of all people would be christian living there and someone else could be raised in a house where 99% of people would end up atheist if they lived there? is it fair that you could interchange person A with person B and they would turn out totally opposite?

many schools of thought on this, outside of those that believe in "god". its just a shame that zealous christians are the quickest to cry heretic when they are opposed, but an atheist/agnostic will allow people to be and generally not scream out when someone isnt part of their club.

basically, noone truly knows. existence is too complex of a subject for a human mind to fathom. all we have to go by are what we can experience, and that is probably a small percentage of what there actually is.

RELIGION IS A CRUTCH FOR THE WEAK SO THAT THEY WILL FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES WHEN THEY DO THE THINGS THAT EVERYONE ELSE DOES ALREADY WITH NO FEAR...

I believe in SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, and that's all that matters...BE BETTER, bigger, faster, whatever your heart desires, but never stop trying to be the BEST at whatever you do!!

A great guy once said in regard to religion.
" I do bad I feel bad, I do good I feel good"
Abe Lincoln

im sure that a baby (i know the argument for this), or a deaf mute(i know the argument for this), or a nomad(i know the argument for this), or an illiterate person(i know the argument for this), will be "saved"...and they havent read the bible or heard of a particular diety or whatever the case may be.
too many flaws to be plausible. too many loopholes to getting into heaven.

Personally, I find all evidence to be in strong favour of a Creator. I haven't seen science debunk the Bible, and most of the time ends up supporting it.

I don't dissagree that the Bible may not have errors, like missinterpreted meanings and so on. I do believe the core of what we have to know, and do IS intact.

Now religion has been used by too many to fit what THEY want, and given it a bad name.

As far as God not doing a good job here on earth, I don't see why God has to help a bunch of people that shun him and refuse to have him in their lives, so he lets them wither and die. God is not your servant.

quote:

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Originally posted by Future One:

As far as God not doing a good job here on earth, I don't see why God has to help a bunch of people that shun him and refuse to have him in their lives, so he lets them wither and die. God is not your servant.

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Hmmm. I know of a few VERY religious people that have had VERY bad things happen to them. For instance one person was burned beyond recognition. You can almost no longer tell he is human. I guess "god" just wanted him to wither and die I guess. So what you're saying is that if your a holy roller nothing bad happens to you. Sounds more like voodoo to me. If that's the case and there is a god I don't want to be where he is then. It just sounds totally fucked up to me. Can you tell me any physical benefits(things I can actually touch, see, feel or hear)that religious people have over atheists? Also most; not all; religious people that I have met are very strange. Seems like all the fun people will be in hell

i dont do wrong more than anyone else, i wouldnt consider myself an atheist, more agnostic. show me proof basically.

do i need a set of rules to live by? nope. i know what i wouldnt want happen to me, and i go along those lines when dealing with people. oh, i learned the 10 commandments, but i would kill, i would commit adultery, i would steal...if need be. i was in the military and i would have taken a life if i was told to, was that not acceptable in roman times? for the good of church and state? its hypocrisy.

as for knowing where i learned right and wrong, sure i may have learned some rules from a church, doesnt mean the hand of god told me not to. more like the pen of man, who wrote the bible. do i follow those rules today? no i go by the laws of the united states, and the state of california. when in the military:the uniform code of military justice. right and wrong is dictated by laws. morality and immorality goes by social standards. so thats what i follow. the ebb and flow of society and my own personal feelings.

i wont bash on those who use the bible as a guide, its a decent set of guidelines and lessons. the kuran, the same. to imply that atheists are "looking the other way" in order to feel more comfortable with their immoral lives is not a responsible statment though. most non believers as you can see are closer than you think, and they arent out commiting crimes or screwing the neighbors wife daily any more than the next person.

I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and I believe in a higher being, although I am not a big fan of organized religion. IF there is a God I dont think that he would care what religion we are, but rather how we act. I also don't believe he would control what directly happens to people on earth, I think he would just let things flow. I have no problem with other peoples beliefs nor do I try to cram mine down their throat. I do have a problem with calling people naive, unintelligent, weird or weakminded just because they have a different belief. Especially on a topic such as this, we will never know for sure how the univerese was created, why it was created and weather or not there is a god. ( No part of this was went as a flame)

Yeah, because they think they are self sufficient, but all the intelligence in the world won't save you if a pole collapses on you, and all the power you might have won't stop a grenade from turning into pink mush.

I think as bodybuilder (and this happens to me too) we get a little carried away because we happen to be bigger and stronger than average joes, and then we think we are Superman, when in reality we are not.

BTW - "Religious" doesn't mean squat. You could be religious, and break every commandment, because you think "religion" will save you.

This is a time in this world when many people will turn away from God, and a man called the Anticrist will come. He will possibly pretend he's an extraterrestrial, and you will all believe him, then you will be happy because he will "prove" there is no God, but things will deteriotate quickly and too many will be sorry they ever turned their backs to God.

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"Mr. Phillips, are you honestly telling me that people are really going to believe that I'm the 'before,' and he's the 'after'?"

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"Mr. Phillips, are you honestly telling me that people are really going to believe that I'm the 'before,' and he's the 'after'?"

How else could you convince people to with out question obey their rulers? Easy, because god told them so. God is in direct contact with the rulers, so the masses have to listen to them and obey.

It's all bullshit. Christianity is the worst, followed by Catholicism, Islam, etc. Look at it this way, it's extortion and intimidation pure and simple, the easiest and most ancient of control techniques.

"Do as god commands or spend eternity in hell" is pure intimidation pure and simple. Or how about this one, "You have free choice" Oh, yeah? Free choice to either follow god or burn in hell forever? What kind of a choice is that??

If you believe in any of this bullshit, you are a sheep walking to the slaughter. Humanism and atheism are the only way in the future and the religous leaders of today know this and fear this. They will stop at nothing to keep this shit alive, even if it means creating their own "antichrist" to try to prove themselves.

Make your fate.

Clarence Darrow

This is my perspective as well.

delts

Miguel de Unamuno writes blithely of the "eternal persistence of consciousness," but this is no easy feat. Particularly when reading this thread.

I often think how comforting life must have been for early man, because he believed in a powerful, benevolent Creator who looked after all things. Imagine his disappointment when he saw his wife putting on weight.

Contemporary man, of course, has no such peace of mind. He finds himself in the midst of a crisis of faith. He has seen the ravages of war, he has known natural catastrophes, he has been to singles bars. My good friend Jaques Monod spoke often of the randomness of the cosmos. He believed everything inexistence occurred by oure chance with the possible exception of his breakfast, which he felt certain was made by his housekeeper.

Naturally belief in a divine spirit inspires tranquillity. But this does not free us from our human responsibilities. Feeling godless, what HappyScrappy has done is made technology God. And yet can technology really be the answer when my toaster has never once worked properly in four years? I follow the instructions and push two slices of bread downwards and seconds later they rifle upward. Once they broke the nose of a woman I loved very dearly. Are we counting on nuts and bolts and electricity to solve our problems? Yes, the telephone is a good thing � and the refrigerator � and the air conditioner. But not every air conditioner. Not my sister Henny's for instance. Hers makes a lound noise and still doesn't cool. When the man comes over to fix it, it gets worse. Either that or he tells her she needs a new one. When she complains, he says not to bother him. This man is truly alienated. Not only is he alienated, but he can't stop smiling.

quote:

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Originally posted by Future One:
"there is a reason that 98% of all the intelligent people in the world don't believe in religion."-

Yeah, because they think they are self sufficient, but all the intelligence in the world won't save you if a pole collapses on you, and all the power you might have won't stop a grenade from turning into pink mush.

I think as bodybuilder (and this happens to me too) we get a little carried away because we happen to be bigger and stronger than average joes, and then we think we are Superman, when in reality we are not.

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So I guess they weren't many religious people in Vietnam. Think of all the lives that would have been saved if they just took that extra second or two before they got killed to say a prayer! I'm off to church guys. See you there!!

Life on Earth was "Created" (Planted) here by powerful extraterrestrial beings who will one day come to free humanity of all it's problems and teach us the true way of life.

There's no point from a moral view to do do anything righteous. We can all do whatever the hell we want as long as we watch out for human law enforcement, which btw is totally wasting their time even correcting what they can.

Religion is a crutch for the weak to try to find something stronger to look up to, and it instills unnecessary fear on the person.

quote:

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Originally posted by Daeo:
So I guess they weren't many religious people in Vietnam. Think of all the lives that would have been saved if they just took that extra second or two before they got killed to say a prayer! I'm off to church guys. See you there!!

"amen" brother. You just pointed out a large fallicy in his argument (no offense to xtians). i agree with this. it is saying that because you are christian you wont suffer a horrible death? i think not

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"NOW DO AS WE SAY OR BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY!!!!"

I especially liked the way the christians executed any native peoples who could not be converted to christianity.

Or how about the Spanish Inquisition or the witch hunts of early colonial times??

BTW..You just said hell. I'd get to church right away before you are punished.

It is possible to be "religious" without being literal. Religion is an expression of the narrative imagination. All of these stories from holy books and oral traditions have significant things to teach us, not just about ethical questions but about the mysteries of existence. The good ones don't try to solve the mystery but just to give us an appreication of it.

An example is the story of Eden. While most of us grew up thinking it's about the evil of sex, it's really about the widsdom imparted by pleasure and bodily (including sexual) knowing. It's also about the way certain feelings, shame for example, seem to be given with pleasure.

I don't think the fact that fundamentalists who take everything in the Bible or the Koran or the Vedas literally and pervert its meaning in order to control behavior is sufficient reason to abandon the religious perspective. Nor is the fact of god's unprovability, which really boils down to his/her/its invisibility, a reason to abandon the concept.

We believe in many invisibles -- love, for example. Wanna explain that? You can take it back to hormones and biology but then you can't explain compassion, which is not seductive. Many things become known by their effect, not by their origins.