No. I acknowledge, very explicitly and clearly, that the mother had a causal role in the fetus's conception, but YOU must prove that "fetus has a right to use her body" follows from this.
To return to my roomate scenario, should I decide to move out, leaving my roomate unable to pay the rent on his, and he ends up evicted and homeless, does he have a right to live in my new house?
Clearly no, even though I had a very distinct causal role in his homeless condition. If I had not knowingly carried out the act of moving out, fully aware of the fact that it could result in his eviction, he would not be homeless. But that I bear responsibility to now provide him with shelter is absurd.
Similarly, without the mother knowingly having sex, fully aware that it may result in the conception of a fetus, the fetus could not have come into existance, completely dependent on her for its survival. What makes it the case that the mother is now responsible for according the fetus what it needs to survive, when she did not intend to get pregnant?

Again, we have to keep very distinct what I ought to do in my roomate scenario from what is morally required of me to do. And we have to keep distinct what the mother ought to do from what is morally required of her to do.

Matt, surely this is not an argument. Trees are "designed" to grow and bear fruit, does it mean that they should not be used for other purposes, such as building a house?

There are many purposes of sex. Propagation is only one of them, and if you ask the mother whether she was engaged in it for this particular purpose, she would certainly say no.

I did not mean walking in the middle of a busy intersection.

Please respond to my last two posts, the analogy is more fitting.

We will not change each others minds over a message board, that would require a true and more interactive discourse.

As a closing note, I don't agree with your assertion that the fetus is a person from the time of conception, but recall that my argument granted this nevertheless. My argument does not rest on whether the fetus is a person, or whether anyone can speak for it. It also does not rest on what the consequences of carrying out the pregnancy versus getting an abortion will be, or the costs vs benefits of each course of action. It is an argument based purely on the fetus's right to use the mother's body in order to survive.

Let us say no more, and move on to other things. I love EliteFitness but it is hardly a medium capable of replacing true conversation with regards to the sort of arguments invovled in the debate of the permissibility of abortion.

quote:

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Originally posted by vlaovic:

First, to Matt:

"The mother's choice of allowing the fetus to use her body is not made AFTER she is pregnant. "

This is a claim that needs support. If I decide to walk on the street, and then get hit by a car, or mugged, I don't choose to have those things happen to me, I choose to walk on the street. The mother doesn't CHOOSE to get pregnant, she chooses to have sex.

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OK - Here is support for my claim:

Sex exists solely for the propogation of the species. This is why it is so enjoyable.

It is widely known and accepted that Nature cares for the species' survival, over the individual. As such, reproduction is supremely important. This importance of reproduction is the reason that sex feels good. Nature wants us to do it, and do it a lot, so that the species goes on.

Now - as far as the "walking the street" claim.....

1- Walking the street is not a Nature designed mechanism to do anything. You could be walking the street for relaxation, or to get somewhere....but if you stop walking the street, nothing will happen to our species.

2- Actions always have consequences. One has to realize that every time you go outside or drive the car or take a train, one of the possible consequences is an attack or a crash....it's just that the benefits outweigh the risk.

With sex - there is only one reason we ARE ABLE TO even do it: to make more of us. As such, the "risk" of pregnancy is paramount to having sex....it is not the "danger" of sex, it is the purpose of sex.

Therefore - a fetus need not ask permission. Its mother engaged in an act that was designed to bring about its existence.

The bigget difference I see is the definition of life. When is the unborn child or fetus truly alive. My contention is that it is alive from the instant of conception. Others, mostly pro-abortionists claim not until at lest the end of the first trimester, but even then abortions take place.

We really cannot compare acts of nature or man to the abortion issue. Is the mother really in a postion to play god? I contend no. Why, she is deciding based upon her most selfish desires whether or not to allow a life to continue within her. Matt is correct on the reason for sex. Hell lions have sex up to 14-20 times a day when they are in heat. If it wasn't fun I am pretty sure they wouldn't do it. In fact I know the male is having fun because when he is doing it you can hear him moan from a half mile a way.

Sex also serves our species the added benifit of pleasure just for pleasure's sake. The ony drawback again is that the designed mechanism of sex is to create life to propagate the species.

It is not really a question of does the unborn baby have the right to use the mothers body it is a question of does the mother have the right to terminate a life.

No matter your definition of life it is a life nonetheless.

Did I ask to be born? No, and neither did anyone else to have ever lived. Would I have known that I was aborted? Who knows?

We cry foul when a child is killed or an infant moments after birth, but just months prior for 500$ the mother could have had her child legally killed and no one would raise a stink! Hmmm, what is the difference at 3 months the unborn child is complete and spends the next 6-7 months growing stronger.

With todays technologies we could avert most unwanted pregnancies and the ones that happen would be alot fewer and could be handled through more humane and ethical ways.

To close, we cannot change the minds of others even though that is what we would like to do.

Instead of trying to change your mind through argument I try to discuss the topic and let you decide for yourself to change to my way of thinking or not.

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At my signal unleash hell.

Strength and Honor