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AlphaDog

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Registered: Jan 2001

posted January 18, 2001 03:34 PM

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I currently have a BA in liberal arts and am considering going back for a BS in Network Engineering. There are plenty of good schools near me, but what is probabily the least prestigous (Keystone College) would allow me to get the second degree in the shortest amount of time. Since I will have to go part time, I would like ot get it done in 2 yrs vs 4. Keystone is a 2yr/4yr. Do you think a degree from there would hinder any opportunities? Is there that much diff between a typical private school (like Syracuse U) and a private 2yr/4yr??? Any advice appreciated.


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Jae

Freak

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From:Well it ain't Kansas
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posted January 18, 2001 03:41 PM

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First of all, why even bother going for a degree, by the time you finish in two years, that technology is going to be old and outdated. I got my Masters in Computer Science, and six months later, it was old news. I could be doing the same I am doing now with just a bachelors. Actually the senior DBA doesn't have a degree at all.

Assuming that you are completely computer illeterate, (which you may not be you can find your own level.) What I would suggest is a TRAINING CERTIFICATION PROGRAM of:

A+ (about 2 months total, gives you the basics of computer operations, etc..)

Then Move on to MCSE the microsoft certified exams, this will take about six months (average time though it only took me eight weeks to study and pass all six tests) Once you get one or two exams passed you will have a certification that will help you get an entry level job and then the company you work for will more likely pay for your schooling and test exams.

After becoming MCSE, you can branch out into MCDBA (which I did and later got my OCP) or you can work for about a year, make decent money, go back to a school, learn CISCO and then really tear some shit up.

Just my suggestion. Or combine your arts degree with some Cold Fusion, ASP, or other web development type training.


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Latimer

Elite Bodybuilder

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posted January 18, 2001 04:57 PM

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I agree with Jae. Certs are they way to go. I'd go get an MCSE or CCNA to start things off.


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sxjunky

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From:red light district
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posted January 18, 2001 05:06 PM

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I was in your shoes myself. I had a poli sci Bachelor of ARts. These guys are correct about the certs but you need to try and get some kind of experience. Getting your CCNA isn't that hard, I used a book to do it. But no company is going to set you in front of their mission critical equipment without any experience. Good luck.


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Nutzz

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posted January 18, 2001 05:11 PM

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I interview guys and have taught the career changers, those who go and get an mcse or attend a boot camp. While certs look nice on your wall, if you don't have the skills to back it up they are worthless. Get some experience first and find out if you're cut out for this work. If you're smart enough, you can pick up alot quickly. Then go get your training.


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AlphaDog

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posted January 19, 2001 06:47 AM

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How much do you think I would start off at with a cert? This is the problem. I know I could get an entry level help desk position, but the pay would suck. Right now I'm a Buyer for a fortune 500. I'm hoping to start off at a minimum 45K.

I was thinking the 4 yr route because I know at my company, new college hires (with cs degrees), start off at 50k, while those who do the same job with no degree make crap.

Also, what cert would yougo for? I used to do some Lotus Notes development.

thanks guys


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JohnnyO

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posted January 19, 2001 07:33 AM

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It's possible for a beginning MCSE to start with 45K .. depending on how well you can bs on your resume and get away with it.


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Jae

Freak

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From:Well it ain't Kansas
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posted January 19, 2001 09:28 AM

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Forget the 4 yr route, the demand is so high right now and everyone needs help so quickly, they will settle for less. Trust me, you can make X amount of dollars after your four year route, or you make close to the same after 6 months of studying and work experience. then four years later, you will be making WAY MORE than what y ou would be making just coming out of school.


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 392
From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 19, 2001 10:47 AM

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Ok, all the talk of all these certs. Where do you take these tests or get these certs? Always have seen this lingo and have been curious due to the extensive schooling that i never thought was necessary.


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JohnnyO

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posted January 19, 2001 10:59 AM

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Where do you take the tests? Register with www.2test.com


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

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From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 19, 2001 11:04 AM

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Still kinda foggy on the whole basis of how these certifications work.


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

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From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 19, 2001 11:07 AM

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....and after browsing through some random microsoft certification program (no clue what for) i found it is offered at the community college i am taking classes at now....


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

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From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 19, 2001 11:43 AM

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pretty curious if anyone cares to elaborate


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JohnnyO

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posted January 19, 2001 12:06 PM

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You COULD go to school for the certification tests .. I did not. Just read the book and take the certification test. Save the classes for the REALLY hard stuff. And take the classes at like New Horizons or something .. colleges are SO out of date.


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MattTheSkywalker

Moderator

Posts: 2427
From:Atlanta GA
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posted January 19, 2001 02:05 PM

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For the $45K guy:

Your starting salary shouldn't matter. There is no apreicable difference between $38K or $50K over one year...so don't worry.

If you are good, the money will come. it is as simple as that. After a year, it will become evident if you are god or not, and it is with a year or two of experience that you can make six figures. Good employees get paid. Losers don't. what you are is up to you. Starting salary is pointless. Think 2 years down the road.

Don't go to college for this shit. Colleges are useless. I got my MCSE the way JohnnyO did - I read the book. I got my CCNA that way too, although I did take some classes for the CCNP.

Start with A+. it is the easiest one and it will show you if this is for you.

Don't believe all the hype about those "boot camps" that get you your certs in like 14 days. No one is going to pay youany serious cash unless you have serious skills.

good luck


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slickdadd

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From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 19, 2001 03:40 PM

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about all these certs and all though, my question is what books? what tests? where are they taken? where do the job experiences come from? Im naive when it comes to this due to only being familiar with a college environment


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 392
From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 19, 2001 05:10 PM

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bump, eager to learn


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Latimer

Elite Bodybuilder

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posted January 19, 2001 06:47 PM

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For anyone interested in pursuing their CCNA, I can recommend three excellent books.

CCNA Study Guide Second Edition (exam 640-507) by Todd Lammle from Sybex. - If you're only gonna get one book this is the one to get.

Introduction To Cisco Router Configuration (ICRC) by Laura Chappell from Cisco Press.

Advanced Cisco Router Configuration (ACRC) by Laura Chappell from Cisco Press.

I have all three of these books and also bought the Sybex Virtual Lab e-trainer software. It's a simulated network with three Cisco routers (two attached to token rings), two host computers, a Catalyst 1900 switch, and a couple of WAN links. It's pretty good for practicing configurations and IOS commands.

I'm sure I could pass the CCNA exam on my own with just the help of these study materials. I decided to enroll in the Cisco Academy offered at my local community college. They offer a 2 year program and an "advanced" 1 year program. This is a great choice for anyone unfamiliar with networking. I took the classes just for the hands on experience. The labs are excellent. I'm not sure if this is the same everywhere but at my school we have open labs 2 days a week were you are free to work with the labs. You can use this time to get caught up on assigned labs or just use the time to practice with the equipment on your own.The Cisco Academy also offers a really good worked based learning program. It's an internship program for Academy students that can offer you some real work place experience and help beef up your resume for future employment.

The first two semesters were very boring for me. Things didn't start picking up untill the third semester. I would definately not recomend the two year program. That's just too much time for a certification that isn't all that difficult to get. If you have access to the equipment at work or home, then I wouldn't bother with the Academy at all. Cisco is real good about not letting their students just become paper certified and will provide you with some valuable hands on experience and the lab environment to accomplish this.

I took the 1 year program which is really only 9 months. We meet twice a week and the class is 4 hours long. I wish they could've condensed this down to about 6 months or less and maybe offered a more advanced level. It's far from a bootcamp. We have tests almost every class and they're usually around 25-30 questions. Then we have a final at the end of each semester (4 total) and then we have the final, final exam which is basically like practive run at the CCNA exam. You are not guranteed your CCNA after you complete the program. You still have to take the actual CCNA exam on your own. I think it runs about $100 for the exam. Your grade is determined by your test scores (60%) and labs (40% which includes your networking journal). The finals are determined by your final exam score and also a pass/fail hands on exam for each semester.

[This message has been edited by Latimer (edited January 19, 2001).]


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MattTheSkywalker

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From:Atlanta GA
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posted January 19, 2001 06:57 PM

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Slickdadd,

THE CCNA book is now called "Interconnecting Cisco Network Devices", published by Cisco press. Cisco publishes their own books at Cisco Press, and there is a ciscopress.com

Use that.

Microsoft certfications are explained thoroughly (as far as required tests) on their web sites.

Sybex is a good company to use.

Microsoft is now only awardiung MCSE certification in Windows 2000/NT5.0

NT4.0 certfication (the one I have) is done - or will be real soon. But it would still be good to know this operating system. It has a large installed base and don't look for that to change too soon.

Here is what I would do: buy some A+ certifcation books. it is an easy certfication to get and it will introduce you to the certifcation world.

After you do that (should be a few weeks studying) - I would get the Sybex NT 4.0 books and NT 4.0 workstation and server.

Do the exercises in the books, and get good with it. Once you can do this it will be easier to teach yourself NT 5.0 (Win2k).

Also investigate Cisco certifications. Cisco's web site is comprehensive on that. Just get started. The rest will come.


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Latimer

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posted January 19, 2001 07:07 PM

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Just a little note for anyone interested in the A+ certification. They are revising the exam and the changes will take place after January 30th, so make sure you get some updated study materials.
http://www.comptia.org/certification/aplus/all_about_aplus.htm


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tito1

Cool Novice

Posts: 25
From:n.cali
Registered: Jun 2000

posted January 20, 2001 03:28 AM

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bump


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JohnnyO

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posted January 20, 2001 04:15 AM

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Latimer if it's not too personal what school are you going too?


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

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From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 20, 2001 10:15 AM

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Cool stuff guys, appreciate it. I'll check into that stuff.


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Code-Code

Amateur Bodybuilder

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posted January 20, 2001 11:44 AM

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Get a degree.
Programming languages do not become outdated in two years.

The knowledge to organize and plan projects is seriously needed and not a single person that works for me (who hasn't got a degree) can do either.

Here's a list of reasons to get a degree:
1. Employers want people with them.
2. Chicks dig guys with degrees.
3. More money.
4. More knowledge *.
5. You have more options for jobs.
6. It feels damn good.
7. It(they) looks cool on the wall.


I have 17 people reporting to me as of today and want to hire four more people in the next quarter. I look first at people who have a degree.

And yes, I'm in IT. I direct the systems engineering, technology and systems support departments. Even with my support guys, I look for people with (or getting) degrees.


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted January 20, 2001 01:50 PM

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Not to be contentious, code-code.....but I have a degree and the only reason it helps at all is because employers are too byzantine to realize what a waste it is. (My degree is mathematics....a real degree).

Most colleges these days teach one to aspire to and accept mediocrity....interesting that a "major" is only 1/4 of your credits.....

The greatest prgrammer of them all, Bill Gates, is a college dropout. So is Larry Ellison. Those are the two wealthiest men in the US. Michael Dell is up there too, another dropout.

College is good for people with average, or slightly above average intelligence. The top 2% don't belong there.

I regret going....how much more could I have accomplished if I wasn't working 15 hours a week toward bullshit??

Yes, employers like degrees. But if you have vision, don't close it off by going to college.

Just another view.


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Code-Code

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posted January 20, 2001 03:37 PM

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Haha. Greatest programmer, Bill Gates? (Since he didn't program DOS, or Windows 3.1.1) Maybe in terms of profit, but this is really marketing greatness.

If you really want to look at overall contributions take a look at Bill Joy, Linus Torvalds or any of the original and present BSD team members.

I don't disagree that you don't learn everything going for a degree. But you do learn project planning, programming discipline and myriad other skills you could never get by self-taught learning.

Not knocking self-taught folks, I learned unix, tons of programming languages and networking on my own well before I went to college.


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted January 20, 2001 03:59 PM

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Bill Joy is an absolute genius. Linus Torvalds is also....I threw Bill Gates in there because not only did he learn programming, but he mastered marketing and distribution...in fact, Microsoft has invented a new business model - all this without a degree.

There are a lot of ways to "skin the cat." College does teach valuable skills, and it demonstrates to employers that an applicant can follow through on a goal.....


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Code-Code

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posted January 20, 2001 08:15 PM

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Then we seem to be on the same side of two different coins arguing an extremely similar stance.

1. Degrees do not signify talent or capability.
2. The do reflect drive and discipline.
3. Bill Gates is simply responsible for standing other people's accomplishments and selling them very well.


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MattTheSkywalker

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posted January 20, 2001 08:35 PM

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Yeah that's about right....


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always02

Pro Bodybuilder

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From:New York, NY
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posted January 20, 2001 10:43 PM

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JAVA=$$(Bling-Bling)

College smollege! You don't need a degree! If you know what you are doing, you'll get paid!

Become a web designer, start a porn site, sit back and let old nasty men pay $20 a month to look at young chicks....it's the american way.

Good Luck.


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Pokemon

Pro Bodybuilder

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posted January 20, 2001 11:44 PM

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Master 3 or 4 of these:
C++
Visual Basic
Unix
Oracle-DBA
HTML
MS.SQL

you'll be banking 70-120K in less than 3yrs.
If your looking for certs: go with Oracle!!!


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Code-Code

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posted January 20, 2001 11:56 PM

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Hey, I know tons of people with those skills that make less than what you've listed, since some of them are as common as a cold.

HTML?
C++?
MS.SQL?
Visual Basic?

Those skills are so common they're assumed you know them.

Oracle experience is a nice skill, although anyone who knows transact SQL can admin an oracle db.

Hot skills that don't require a degree:
Cisco certs
Veritas
Sun Cluster
RSA
EMS admin
solaris certs


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tito1

Cool Novice

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From:n.cali
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posted January 21, 2001 12:52 AM

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bump


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

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From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 21, 2001 11:41 AM

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Im thinking about looking into perhaps a Cisco or Oracle stuff. I've been told about a job but it requires i know Vignet (sp?) knowledge which i've never heard of, and Oracle, so i think i'll see what those are like. I'll go to the book store and check it out.


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Code-Code

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posted January 21, 2001 11:53 AM

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Vignette is useful stuff if you're a programmer or into web-based stuff, ie. vaporware.


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FreakMonster

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posted January 21, 2001 12:28 PM

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Java Java and more Java!!


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 392
From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 21, 2001 09:50 PM

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Just found a couple books at the local store for A+ and CCNA, probably gonna take the advice and get the A+ one and see how it turns out. Are the oracle and microsoft certs available through them only or what? In terms of books


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Code-Code

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posted January 21, 2001 10:09 PM

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It'll pay off in the end.

Let me know how it goes, or if you have any questions.


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 392
From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 22, 2001 04:01 PM

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Well just looked through a couple bookstores and heres what i got. As far as the MCSE certs, what books should i look for? There are the microsoft bundled packages containing about 4 books that run about 200 bucks, then just a single guide for the mcse by microsoft which is cheaper. Then there is the CCNA guide and a seperate trainer as well, which i think both would be good. Then as well many many A+ books, which i think im gonna go for maybe a sybex one to start off like you guys suggested? Any other tips or suggestions on books?


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slickdadd

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Posts: 392
From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 22, 2001 05:55 PM

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Just told by a fella that people seeking certs screw up the market and take jobs from those who really want them and are not there to just earn money. A little food for thought at least....


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Code-Code

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posted January 22, 2001 06:04 PM

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Sounds like a bitter underachiever to me.

I have a degree and certs.


I guess I'm an evil knowledge monster only gunning for myself.


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MattTheSkywalker

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Posts: 2427
From:Atlanta GA
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posted January 22, 2001 06:54 PM

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Slickdadd,

Jumping right into the Cisco stuff may be over your head at first.


MCSE training is a good background for Cisco because you get familiar with basic networking concepts like TCP/IP, as well as what a router or switch does.....I had my degree when I got into the tech world.....but I went A+, then MCSE, then Cisco....took about a year to do all that.

The Windows 2000 stuff is kind of tough if you aren't familiar with NT 4.0. I would - if I were you - get your A+ and then decide what to do next.

There are some good tech bros here - if you were reading a book anbd had a techincal question, there are a handful of bros on here who could probably clear it up.

Getting started is the hardest part. Begin.


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 392
From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 22, 2001 08:01 PM

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Yeah im gonna start with A+ and see where i wanna go from there.


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slickdadd

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 392
From:Looking over your shoulder
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posted January 23, 2001 10:17 PM

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one final bump


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