GEORGE SPELLWIN'S ANNOUNCEMENTS
Enlightening Men about Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding for over Two Decades
|
 Elite Fitness Bodybuilding, Anabolics, Diet, Life Extension, Wellness, Supplements, and Training Boards
 Anabolic Discussion Board
 One article that proves Nolva helps with progesterone...
|
| Author | Topic: One article that proves Nolva helps with progesterone... | ||
|
Moderator 
Posts: 4935 |
Note the bold section: ********************************************* Source Abstract ***In simple terms, Nolvadex downregulates the progesterone receptor throught the estrogen receptor. Hence, it can help prevent gyno from Deca through downregulating the receptor.
   | ||
|
Cool Novice 
Posts: 32 |
Good info! Thanks.  | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 225 |
...and that study was done on humans! Nice work, way to go!  | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 422 |
thanks for the info, i asked a similar ? the other day and no one knew the awnser. thanks bro. | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 543 |
This is why I love this board.. top-notch info and people who give a fuck | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 4935 |
I will note that this is merely one study and far from being a fact. If you want to be 100% sure, you should take all of the necessary precautions (like the winny and reduction of dosage when needed) in order to prevent problems. I just wanted to note that Nolvadex is one of the possible weapons against all types of gyno. | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 5623 |
I'm sorry you're wrong and you've intrepreted this study wrong, they're talking about TGF-alpha levels not PR. You even highlited it: CONCLUSIONS. Tamoxifen downregulates TGF-alpha levels in ER-positive and PR-positive breast cancers through ER then you wrote: Where on earth did they talk about receptor downregulation????? TAMOXIFIN DOWNREGULATES TGF-ALPHA LEVELS !!!!!!! IN ER AND PR POSITIVE TUMORS THROUGH THE ER!!!!! So the tumors were ER positive and PR positive so what??? There is no talk whatsoever about PR downregulation, only down regulation of TGF-ALPHA levels via the ER!!!!!! THERE IS NO MENTION OF ER NEGATIVE AND PR POSITIVE TUMORS IN WHICH THIS REDUCTION OCCURED, SO YOU CAN'T ATTRIBUTE THIS REDUCTION IN TGF-ALPHA LEVELS ON ANY WORK DONE VIA THE PR. EVEN IF THERE WERE THAT WOULDN'T HELP YOUR CASE AS THEY'RE NOT EVEN CONCERNED ABOUT PR DOWNREGULATION, NOR DID THEY DO ANY TESTS ON PR DOWNREGULATION. THEN THEY PLAINLY STATE THAT IT WAS DOWNREGULTATED THROUGH THE ESTROGEN RECEPTOR!!!!!!!! THERE IS NO MENTION OF PR DOWNREGULATION, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE HELL YOU GOT THAT, AND THE TGF-ALPHA HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THIS LITTLE 'ARGUMENT'! I'M SERIOUSLY AMAZED THAT YOU WOULD POST A STUDY WHICH YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T READ PROPERLY AND INTERPRETED INCORRECTLY. YOU PUT ON AIRS AS THOUGH YOU'RE AN INTELLIGENT PERSON, BUT YOU CAN'T EVEN READ AN ABSTRACT PROPERLY???!?!!?!
[This message has been edited by E2 (edited December 08, 2000).] | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 422 |
"O" | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 543 |
oh lord...
| ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 4935 |
I see that you do not know how to read a medical study. Also, I see that you do not know what TGF-alpha levels are. They are greatly influenced by the regulation and function of the PR and ER receptor. Therefore if TGF-alpha levels are downregulated, then the receptor is downregulated. I don't know what study you are reading but it clearly states the PR was downregulated via the ER. I am sorry you did not understand the details study, but you could have asked before making assumptions. If you don't understand something, then please ask me instead of making false accusations. | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 871 |
here we go again.. | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 986 |
Boy... this one's a stretch. The study was done on older women (post-menopausal), and it refers to tamoxifen (Nolvadex) treatment on transforming growth factor-alpha (TGF-alpha) levels... nothing about progesterone receptor down-regulation. Breast cancer is a much different situation from gynecomastia in males. Gynecomastia is not caused by TGF-alpha... if it did, we'd all be under chemotherapy right now. | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 4935 |
GymRatSD, Please show me a study that conclusively proves my theory wrong. They are too focused to give a direct link. We are forced to analyze data from many different studies and come to an educated conclusion. Until there is scientific research done healthy males using anabolic steroids to induce hypertrophy and the use of anti-estrogens then we are stuck with non-related data. I have picked apart all studies E2, MS and others have shown me and now you are tearing apart my study. We are not going to agree, but at least I respect their POV. I cannot say that they are respecting my theory. That is the problem. | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 278 |
2thick - sorry bro, your wrong. Im not even going to try arguing the science behind it. I know from experience that Nolvadex does NOTHING to help reduce or prevent gyno caused by steroids that attach to the progesterone receptor. Ive got scars on my tits to prove it. Now that Im using Winstrol with every Deca, Fina, and Anadrol cycle I dont have problems anymore. I rarely have problems with androgens converting to estrogens. Even on a heavy cycle 20mg of nolvadex and 25mg proviron keeps the gyno away. Deca is another story... | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 5623 |
2thick god you're infuriating, i'm amazed at how ingnorant you really are growth factor> Proteins secreted by transformed cells that can stimulate growth of normal cells. Unfortunate misnomer, since they induce aspects of transformed phenotype, such as growth in semi solid agar, but do not actually transform. Transforming growth factor alpha, 50 amino acid polypeptide originally isolated from viral transformed rodent cells, contains EGF like domain and binds to EGF receptor. Stimulates growth of microvascular endothelial cells, i.e. Is angiogenic. Transforming growth factor beta a homodimer of two 112 chains, polypeptide is secreted by many different cell types, stimulates wound healing but in vitro is also a growth inhibitor for certain cell types. The transforming growth factor family includes many of the bone morphogenetic proteins. TGF-alpha has nothing to do with the PR!!!!! Stimulation or lack of stimulation of the PR will not affect TGF-A levels!!!!!! That's why they said that it was done throught the ER!!!! The only reason i waste my time responding to your stupid replies is because there are those on this board willing to follow your 'advice' blindly. Unfortunetly you're advice is almost always wrong!! TGF-A downregulation has nothing to do with PR downregulation!!!!! And it says nothing about PR downregulation!!! ONly downregulation of the TGF-a. Seriously i'm afraid!!!! If i remember correctly you're in med school, and if that is so, i'm seriously afraid that one day you may be a doctor, that's seriously frightning and i already feel sorry for your future paitents. And you never picked apart 'our' studies, not even close, you arrogance is unbelieveable. At the very least our studies were relevant while yours has absolutley no bearing at all one the topic.
------------------ [This message has been edited by E2 (edited December 08, 2000).] | ||
|
Guru
Posts: 3759 |
TALK ABOUT BITCHING!!! keep it up I'm sure your setting a good example for everyone. Theories must be respected. Their is no absolute "PROOF" for either of your theories. So stop your Bitching. You are Both intellegent People. Don't act like a | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 4935 |
I am glad to know that you can cut and paste information. You are the one that tries to pass as an intelligent person when you really don't know the details. You do not even realize the influence of TGF-alpha on the regulation of the PR. This is where you are wrong since you do not understand the link. Stop embarrassing yourself with your lack of knowledge BTW- before you cut and paste, make sure you the information is pertinent to my study and not studies done on rats. You just try too hard sometimes to be someone you are not. You are one of the most arrogant, self-centered, ignorant people I have ever had the pleasure to encounter in life. This is why you think you are never wrong (when in fact you are). Just remember that every time you are wrong, I will point it out. You are welcomed to do the same. | ||
|
Guru
Posts: 3759 |
YOU GUYS CAN FIGHT OVER WHICH ONE YOU ARE IN THE PIC  | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 1567 |
Please try to keep the insults to a minimum- though their is definitely considerable disagreement on this point the name calling and derogation of intentions seems excessive. WHile I do often find that 2thick makes unsupported or spurious correlations ( as others often do, myself included)- I do beleive that attacking his intentions is a bit out of line. I think that 2thick often makes good theoretical presentations, though I do find that he sometimes is myopic in his commentary. We all are guilty of this sometimes, but it seems that once a position has been taken it is hard for any, as egos tend to run high among the vociferous, to back down from their original thoughts. I do not mean to single 2thick out, but he did make some comments regarding 17aa injectables recently that upset me, because he was clearly wrong and going against his own theories that injectable veterinary products were dangerous. that being said, it seems to me that the article in no way proves that estrogenic antagonists (tamoxifen) affect the PR itself. However that being said, I will once again state that reducing antagonism to the ER will affect total stimulation of breast tissue. though, in some cases this will be irrelevant as the PR stimulation alone may be sufficient in some individuals to induce gyno. Peace ------------------ | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 385 |
Any real world experiences to back up either arguement? Has anyone who is progesterone sensitive to gyno and is taking only progestenic gyno causing AAS and using only Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen out there? | ||
|
Guru
Posts: 3580 |
Gearseeker just said he did, read it up there. I have a buddy who got it off of a very low dose of deca, I know he tried proviron, not sure if he tried nolvadex, will ask though.. he also had to get it cut out. ------------------ For a good time click here: Search and Profiles (300Kleens Board) | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 4935 |
Macro, It's funny how you go out of your way to post only when you disagree with me. I actually enjoy the competition. I may even learn something in the process (and the same goes for you). This thread (and in fact most threads with E2 and I) have more to them then just the subject we are discussing. It goes much deeper and will probably never be resolved. Once again, I have mentioned that one should use all that is available to combat gyno. I merely state that Nolvadex helps alleviate progesterone-induced gyno at some level. | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 265 |
Slopain..Oh yea. I think I answered your email, if I didn't resend it. Having a little bit of trouble with my PC. Anyway...hmmm...I won't even get into this. | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 986 |
Everyone truly could be right in some aspects here. I don't think there is a black-and-white area, but various shades of grey. Take a look at this: Progesterone Estradiol (one of many, but the most common, estrogen) Testosterone Nandrolone (Deca) Even if you don't know much about organic chemistry, you can easily see how extremely similar these four compounds are. Saying that tamoxifen will only work on the estrogens is a difficult assumption unless you know the mechanism by which it attacks the receptors. The same would apply to progesterone. Much of this could be variable person-to-person. Each body will react differently to hormonal imbalances. The best thing to do would be to use all of your resources you have available. If you see the onset of gynecomastia, use Nolvadex, use stanazolol, use Arimidex. Do what you can to battle it. I will instead of a knife. | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 391 |
I respect both E2 and 2thick. I just wish they respected one another. Both have a lot of good to say. ------------------ | ||
|
Cool Novice
Posts: 32 |
Don't want to stir the water anymore then it's already been stirred, but if you would just take a look at 2thick's initial reply to his own topic, he does clearly state that this info is inconclusive and should be weighed in light of other studies. I personally found his self reflection to be quite refreshing and open minded. Hate to see people let their egos or emotions over-take their powers of reason. The mods on this board- all of them - are outstanding and their differences of opinions allow us to view the evidence from all sides. So, bring it on, but let's cool the flames a bit. | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 298 |
How much winny do you need while on moderate doses of Drol? I'm running them on a 1:1 ratio. | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 584 |
Great stuff "E2" and "2THICK", Seems to be working! |
All times are ET (US) | |
 |
|
|
posted December 08, 2000 04:22 PM
