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 What did old pro's use for gyno when nolva/arimidex wasn't around?
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| Author | Topic: What did old pro's use for gyno when nolva/arimidex wasn't around? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 129 |
I just finished watching Pumping Iron and saw some of the old pro's (Arnold, Robinson, Ferrigno, etc.) and was wondering what they did to prevent gyno back then? Did any anti-estrogens exist in their day or were there doses smaller? I don't see too many pictures of bb's with gyno from the 70's and early 80's. BTW, how do you think Arnold kept water retention low with all the Dbol he was popping? It's been said alot that dbol/primo was one of his favourite cycles, but I don't understand the logic behind that...I mean, why would he take dbol which gives alot of water gain, with primo which gives lean, hard quality muscle gains...seems like almost two drugs on the opposite ends of the AS spectrum.     | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 46 |
Clomiphene and Tamoxiphen are the only 2 anti-estrogen drugs I have heard of, before them I don't think chemical suppression of estrogen aromatization was possible, but who knows I may be wrong. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 275 |
Skab...You just posted a message that made you sound like you had no idea about the world of juice and now you post a legit anwser like this??? Where do you guys come from??
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 129 |
Good to see you Jay...hope the cycle is rolling along smoothly. | ||
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Moderator 
Posts: 877 |
Soy Protein LOL! ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 337 |
quote:
Anabolic/Androgenic ratios: As you can see although Dbol causes water retention it is more Anabolic than Androgenic, a little more than 2 to 1. I still would not do this stack but who knows maybe this is why I�m not Mr. O (lol). It just depends on what works for you. All of our bodies are different. Plus adding the Primo would cut down on the water retention. Got the ratio info from Huck over on the Select board. Jay, that is some funny shit (lol) [This message has been edited by DSPO (edited November 28, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 88 |
i disagree with the primo the anabolic isnt that high at all. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 337 |
Winstrol69 These are ratios all it means is that Primo is 25 time more Anabolic than it is Androgenic (25 to 1) Is that better. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 297 |
I don't know what they used, but Nolvadex wasn't introduced until 1981 by Dan Duchaine. MR. BMJ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 129 |
Does anyone have any ideas how they avoided gyno back then? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 225 |
good question because it doesn't look like any of them suffered from gyno? what gives? | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 46 |
Jay- I know alot about general pharmacology, not steroids... | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 99 |
quote: yeah, like dan introduced nolva to THE WHOLE WORLD | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 39 |
After cycle you may use Proviron first. K. [This message has been edited by Kkk (edited November 29, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 129 |
Some of the oldschoolers must have some ideas about this. Where are all the "old" guys? | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 41 |
I cannot recall the source (might have been Draper or Zane), but several times over the years I have read that the cycles those guys used were miniscule compared to today. The comment was something like "we spent hours debating the merits of upping the dbol dose from 20mg to 25mg per day." Not a lot of guys will get gyno from 300mg primo and 20mg dbol. Now you have guys taking 2 grams of test a week. Different ballgame. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 849 |
Maybe they were not prone to gyno. Doubt it but who knows, not every one is real sensitive to it. I thought Proviron was only sold in bottles, not in strips. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 297 |
Let me rephrase and quote, "Over 14 years ago, I postulated that one anti-estrogen, Nolvadex, might help prevent breast cancer" "Back in 1980, all of the doctors thought I was completely nuts to worry about estrogen in seemingly healthy male and female bodybuilders". "I believe I was the first person to use anti-estrogens on bodybuilders, first with women and later with men". Dan Duchaine's BodyOpus page 175/chapter 27. Therefore, if this is true, nothing was used back in the 60's and 70's until 1980-81 when Nolvadex was brought mainstream by Duchaine. He didn't invent the damn drug, he was the first for its application on bodybuilders for the sole purpose to combat fat and estrogen. | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 1877 |
Well I'm not old enough to know what was used in the 60's and 70's but during my early years we used nothing. I was even under a docs control late 80's and anti estros were never mentioned. I'm going to make a bold statement here, most of you need to ignore it. If you use your head and plan a proper cycle, some of you will never need any sort of estro blockers. If you are naturally lean your chances of gyno are slim anyway. In the earliest days of AS use, only a few people, true athletes, dared explore their use. You did not find some fat ass who never trained or consulted a doc using AS. I think the insertion of AS into the main stream population has blown all this gyno over board. Think of it like this. Take Arnold when he was natural and compare him to that fat ass in your gym that rides the stepper every day to stay below 50% bf....which one do you think would be prone to gyno ? I'm not a real scientific person, I think diet and lifestyle play a larger role in all this than simple AS use. In other words the few are out numbering the many here. I have been lucky enough to never develope any negative effects from AS no matter what dosage or cycle I use.....let me remove the lucky part.....I have been smart enough to never... My advice to you newbies would be to have all the above mentioned items on hand just in case you need it. GYno will not just happen over night. For you old timers that know what I'm talking about...please chime in. BPP | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 365 |
I gotta say that makes sense. I have low bodyfat all year round as my diet is strict and I've never suffered from bitch tits (touch wood). I've used over 1g test/wk without nolva, although on my last course I used a little bit as a precaution. I was on 1g test/wk, 300mg primob/wk & 100mg a-bombs/day. This was the most I've ever used so I got paranoid and took 10mg EOD. Still had no problems. The way I see it is this: Female bodybuilders do not have tits. Not at competition time when their body fat is low, unless they have implants. It therefore stands to reason that if a man's body fat is low he should have a reduced chance of gyno. [This message has been edited by strengthmonster (edited November 30, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 129 |
Big papa, strengthmonster, so you two believe that your level of fitness and BF% are correlated to gyno...I guess that hypothesis is valid in the sense that higher amounts of adipose tissue have larger amounts of aromatase to convert test to estrogen. What about the genetics factor?- I don't know how valid this is but I once read a board member say that if your mother and sister have a large chest, you also may be more susceptible to gyno. He also stated that he has used up to 1g of test/week and had no problems, while some of his boys would use half the amount and develop problems (and coincidentally their immediate female relatives had well developed chests) Don't know how credible this correlation is, but am looking for openions on the subject. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 129 |
Anyone have any comments on my last suggestion? | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 1877 |
Again, I'm not scientific but there are guys out there that you can look at and just tell that they're prone to gyno. Call it genetics or life style...who knows. I generally notice this pre gyno on guys that are over weight or that really aren't very athletic. I don't know about moms and grand moms chest size....both of mine are very very large and I have none of the before mentioned symptoms. As a matter of fact my dad is a great example. He is not currently over weight but had been in the past. YOu can look at him now and see what we might interpret as gyno. Maybe its just dumb luck. My younger brother (29)is almost bald, never used gear but was never really gifted athletic wise. BPP | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 169 |
I disagree BPP. I am prone to gyno and I am very lean and do everything that you are supposed to do. I have a great lifesyle, I dont drink, do rec drugs, or even party. I go to school, eat, and lift. Why am I so prone? | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 943 |
Good post, BPP. People forget that a lot of the BB'ers back in the day would go off for extended periods. Many of these guys would actually drop weight in the off season and then do a bulk cycle immediately followed by a quick cutting cycle. This of course is not practical in today's world of freaky competitive physiques. None of the old timers I've known ever used any anti-estros, and they didn't all use small dosages, either. I do remember guys who would take blood pressure meds, both for their BP and to reduce water weight. Mickey, you may be one of those people who are unfortunate enough to have a genetic predisposition to gyno. I would say definitely incorporate nolva or arimidex into your test cycles. At the very least, keep anti-e's on hand as BPP suggested above. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 68 |
To back the theory of them (Arnold,Franco etc.) dropping weight while in the off-season I'll quote Arnold from Pumping Iron "almost there yah[meaning for those who are more slow, his bulking cycle is working well, and he is on his way to putting the muscle back on to form his Award winning physique]" after hearing that and seeing off-season pics it isnt a mystery they took long periods between cycles. As for the AS used, Dbol and Primo is actually a logical combination. Dbol has a short life span in your blood and Primo has only a very small influence on the hypothalamuhypophysiat testicular axis so that the body's own testosterone production is only reduced when very high dosages are taken over a prolonged period of time. So, here you have someone taking normal(small to the small minded) amounts of Dbol in the mourning not quite influencing natural test levels and Primo which doesnt influence the natural test levels either at those dosages. So recovery is not imacted greatly and hormones arent fluxuating as greatly. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1383 |
Good reply Swollen. Furthermore i also find it a logical combination. The Primo is for keeping the gains and for some disposal of water from the Dbol. Besides Primo can be used in any stack. ------------------ Don't look back, life is too short | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 475 |
It depends on the amount of estrogen receptors you have in the chest area. Some men have them, some have alot of them, some have none in the area of the chest. Same reason some women have large breasts or small breasts. You may be genetically prone to it or not just like a family with 4 girls. 3 like the mother are flat. 1 is a regular Dolly Parton. Just a roll of the genetic dice. Like BPP said about his brother being bald. I'm bald. Have been since I was 19. My Dad has a full head of hair. So does my Grandfather. My Greatgrandfather died with a full head of hair. All on my Fathers side. My Mothers Father is bald but didn't start losing hair until his late 40's. Some white blonde haired blue eyed women will have a black child cause thier Great great great great great Grandmother was black. Recesive genes pop up all the time. My take would be that the old time lifters just where not as prone to it. With things being the way they where if you got gyno you where stuck with it. No Lipo, real bad cosmetic surgery. Systematically stopping your career. For someone who was prone that would end it early. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 129 |
Interesting answer swollen...I didn't look at that way (in terms of not comprising natural test production)- has anyone tried this cycle with retainable results? | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 422 |
it is to my understanding that they used teslac | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 129 |
does anyone use teslac regularly?-I've read up on it in the search but haven't seen it mentioned recently in anyone's cycle-I guess Arimidex may be more effective. |
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posted November 28, 2000 09:35 PM
