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SHOOT IT

The Winny (as any other roid) has to get in the bloodstream BEFORE it can enter the body. When you shoot you are in the bloodstream, when you drink it you have to pass the liver, an extra time) to get into the bloodstream.
If you don't want to shoot, buy some orals.

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Jeff

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Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.
Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve to death.

The moral?

Winny tastes very bland, almost no taste what so ever. Test however tastes like ass.

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Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.
Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve to death.

The moral?

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Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.
Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve to death.

The moral?

If you haven't already you will soon relize how important injection spots are, and why add to the scar tissue by shooting it, when you really cant notice a difference anyway? If you want to shoot it go ahead it definetly will not produce worse results, but I don't know why you would (other than temporary localized growth of maybe shooting yor bi's or something).

Just because Winstrol is made as an injectible, it's the same drug as the tablets. There is no difference in the drug whatsoever. So, get your head out of your ass by thinking that if it's made as an injectible, it must be injected.

There, I feel better.

When a drug is swallowed, how do you think it enters the liver? THROUGH THE BLOODSTREAM. Therefore, it doesn't matter the manner by which the drug is administered -- it's going to be in the bloodstream one way or another. Why are these orals effective? The alpha alkylation at the 17th position (sorry, a little organic chemistry here) preserves the drug better as it goes through the liver. It takes SEVERAL passes to break it down.

So guys, since drinking the Winny is the conversation of the year 2000, i see my doctor next week and ask him again. Also i will ask him what shooting in a vein will do to you (I forgot to ask him last month).
If i am wrong, i take my words back. What i do not understand is "WHY IS IT SO HARD TO SHOOT THE WINNY"?

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Jeff

One major advantage of drinking Winny is that you can split it into multiple doses, throughout the day, thereby keeping serum levels relatively constant. Once daily, let alone eod, injections will lead to much greater fluctuations.

One major advantage of drinking Winny is that you can split it into multiple doses, throughout the day, thereby keeping serum levels relatively constant. Once daily, let alone eod, injections will lead to much greater fluctuations.

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Jeff

But, if you are getting questionable mileage out of your eod injections, why not try more frequent oral administration? It couldn't get you lower results than zero, right? And you might be pleasantly surprised. The 8-10 week limitation on duration for reasons of 17-aa is a non-issue here, since even if true, it would apply equally to both forms of administration.

I am not really trying to convince you. I know that we all tend to be set in our ways, to some extent. For what it is worth, I feel equally strongly about never injecting Winny! <g>

I could care less drink or dont drink, but don't say drinking is worse than injecting because its really not.

btw Are you going to ask you doc about what would happen if you injected into a vein on accident or purposefully?

Slopain

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Jeff

No offense to anyone, I appreciate the discussion but the first assertion simply is not true, and the second is a bit misleading. When you shoot it, it will be absorbed into the bloodstream and eventually circulate to the liver. When taken orally, however, it goes directly from the stomach to the Hepatic Portal Vein to the liver [before any sihnificant amount of drug has been absorbed into the systematic circulation] where first-pass metabolism occurs [granted this metabolism is not very extensive].

Therefore, there will be differences in the rate and extent of absorption of drug into the systematic circulation as well the degree of stress on the liver.

Now I do agree with many of your conclusions though, that these differences are rather subtle and there is probably not a great deal of superiority of one method of administration versus the other. I do think that injecting will give slightly higher blood levels and cause slightly lower stress on the liver.

Slopain, i will see him next friday (17/11) and will post his answer.

Meanwhile don't drink the Winny (LOL)

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Jeff

E-TOON, I have to disagree with your idea that injected stanazolol will give higher blood levels than oral. It should be the exact opposite, since to be absorbed orally, it must be dissolved completely (no crystals will pass through the intestinal wall), therefore the total dose taken will enter the liver and then enter the bloodstream. In the case of the injected depot, this is mostly crystalline, which slowly dissolves over time, thus levels rise until you reach a plateau of stanazolol entering the blood and stanazolol being metabolized and excreted. With oral administration you will have faster rise, with higher peak, but with shorter time in the body. The latter problem can be taken care of with split dosing.

Injecting Winny is only for masochists, since it has no benefit over drinking, only downsides (scar tissue, swelling, possible infections, etc.).

I know, i am pushing it.

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Jeff

(1) i shot EOD, in the ass (i need any/all growth possible in that area), and had no negative results (knock on wood)...by this i mean that i did not have any probs with infection...only some tremendous pain a couple of times (prob hit a nerve, etc) - but nothing that would change my desire to shoot again. if you are keeping yourself clean (swabbing the area down, sterile syringe, etc) when administering the shots, i don't see the risk as being large

(2) the whole argument regarding the injection vs oral dosage and the passing of it through the liver is moot .... like a couple of the bros have mentioned above, it is going to hit the liver one way or another and any changes due to the type of administration is neglible from my understanding (biochem major).

(3) the spreading out of the dosage during the day for oral consumption makes sense, but is more of a pain as many people have full time jobs, etc and don't have the wherewithall (some may say commitment) to split the dosage up all day long...just my 2 cents for my busy schedule.

just shoot it, workout like a dog, and enjoy the gains.
either way, i'll stand by winny and the results i have gained..and again, before anyone else reminds us, each person reacts differently to the stuff.

This is to address your point (3).

Slopainful, I thought a "Guru" such as yourself with over 3000 posts would know better that A) I'm not a fool and B) I wasn't put "in check." So sit back and read and perhaps you'll learn something.

Cockdezl, a point of clarification is needed here. Your depiction of the blood levels over time is correct. Oral administration does have faster absorption, thus its graphical blood level over time curve will be "taller" and more narrow than intramuscular injection. The injection peak will be "shorter" but broader. When I said "I do think that injecting will give slightly higher blood levels " , I was not referring to the height of the peaks of the respective blood level/time curves, I was referring to the Area Under the Curve [AUC], which depicts the Extent of absorption (which corelates with the amount of a given dose that reaches the circulation or Bioavailability.)

"Therefore the total dose taken will enter the liver and then enter the bloodstream." This assertion here indicates that NO first-pass metabolism occurs, which is certainly not true. When a drug is given orally, it must pass sequentially from the gastrointestinal lumen, through the gut wall, and through the liver before entering the general circulation because virtually ALL blood perfusing the gastointestinal tract drains directly to the liver via the Hepatic Portal Vein. Drugs given IM are not subject to first pass metabolism and reach the circulation [where it can exert an effect] before metabolism occurs. Now the drug is subsequently metabolized but the major difference is that this is AFTER it has been widely distributed throughtout the body where it can bind to receptors.

Methyltestosterone is very similar structurally to stanozol. Stanozol simply has a pyrazole ring attached to the A ring of the steroid backbone, I will therefore asumme similar bioavailability. Methyltests reported Oral Bioavailability is ~50%, meaning if you injested 100 mg, then 50 mg would reach the general circulation and be able to have a pharmacological effect. I have no hard data on Stanozol pharmacokinetics because it is not available in the PDR, Mosby's, Clinpharm or any other source I found probably because it is not commonly used in humans. Stanazol is no doubt metabolized by the liver, probably in the range of 20-40%. Let us assume for the sake of an example [based on its similarity in structure to Methyltestosterone] that 25% is metabolized by the liver, or, put otherwise, 75% Bioavailable, due to first-pass after oral administration. Due to this assumption, when Winny is taken orally as a 100mg dose, 75mg actually reaches the blood stream. The other 25 mg is fairly quickly inactivated into conjugated metabolites with no pharmacological effect and subsequently excreted primarily by the kidneys. In contrast, when taken IM, nearly 100% of the dose reaches the bloodstream before
any hepatic metabolism occurs. Therefore, the injection route has more
net drug entering the circulation (a necessary prerequisite for it to
bind to receptors and exert its desired effect] and is thus more bioavailable.

As stated before, these subtle and technical differences probably results in small differences in the effectiveness of the Winny cycle. If you are taking Winny 100mg eod [350mg/wk], then you are probably getting ~260-270mg of that entering the general circulation. This probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the cycle [where there are other roids stacked in also], similarly there's probably minimal difference in the results of a cycle of 400mg vs. 500 mg Deca, for example.

Besides you say:

"Therefore the total dose taken will enter the liver and then enter the bloodstream." This assertion here indicates that NO first-pass metabolism occurs, which is certainly not true. When a drug is given orally, it must pass sequentially from the gastrointestinal lumen, through the gut wall, and through the liver before entering the general circulation because virtually ALL blood perfusing the gastointestinal tract drains directly to the liver via the Hepatic Portal Vein.

"Drugs given IM are not subject to first pass metabolism and reach the circulation
[where it can exert an effect] before metabolism occurs.

That's nice. In other words i was right saying that drinking the Winny gets one extra pass through the liver and that shooting the Winny saves you one pass.

Jeff

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Jeff

its all good!!

I definitely have read alot of posts and seen that Slopain has given a lot of useful info to bro's and I do respect that, overall, he knows a hell of a lot more about training and juicing than me and many others here.

I was just taking a little shot back at him as I felt he took one at me.

Slopain, no hard feelings bro.

E-Toon

Hacker wrote: "Jeff_rys, that is incorrect. Whether you shoot it or drink it, it enters the blood stream first then passes through the liver several times. (not more or less drinking/shooting)"

"Etoon, you're an idiot."

For what it is worth, I appreciate your detailed explanation. I didn't know about the hepatic portal vein pathway, but it makes sense.