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Topic: sustanon verse enanthate
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 228 From:nj,usa Registered: Jan 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 12:25 PM |
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Curious to the opinions from all of you on the pros and cons of doing a sustanon or enanthate cycle, both being stacked with deca. Which would give better gains in size and muscle and the negatives of side effects. I was comparing 500mg/wk sust to 600 mg/wk enanthate or for arguments sake the same dosage of each a week. Cost is not a concern here as they are not that much different. I'm thinking the enanthate will be quickier and maybe more size and stregth but will have more water retention and other testosterone related sides than the sust? The water retention is my main concern. How about 250 mg/wk sust and 400 mg/wk enanthate would that be better than one or the other alone?
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 340 From:The ground beneath your feeth Registered: Mar 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 12:31 PM |
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Which is better here , which is better there.Here it is PLAIN AND SIMPLE...One of the most misunderstood subjects in the world of steroids is the ester--the mechanism by which injectable esterified steroids like testosterone cypionate, testosterone enanthate, and Sustanon work. Arguments over the superiority of cypionate to enanthate, or Sustanon to all other testosterones are of course very common. Let's take an authoritative look at the ester and what specifically it does to a steroid. 1. WHAT AN ESTER IS, AND HOW IT WORKSI'm sure that if you have taken an interest in anabolic steroids you have noticed the similarities on the labeling of many drugs. Let's look at testosterone for example. One can find compounds like testosterone cypionate, enanthate, propionate, heptylate; caproate, phenylpropionate, isocaproate, decanoate, acetate, the list goes on and on. In all such cases the parent hormone is testosterone, which had been modified by adding an ester (enanthate, propionate etc.) to its structure. The following question arises: What is the difference between the various esterified versions of testosterone in regards to their use in bodybuilding? A: An ester is a chain composed primarily of carbon and hydrogen atoms. This chain is typically attached to the parent steroid hormone at the 17th carbon position (beta orientation), although some compounds do carry esters at position 3 (for the purposes of this article it is not crucial to understand the exact position of the ester). Esterification of an injectable anabolic/androgenic steroid basically accomplishes one thing, it slows the release of the parent steroid from the site of injection. This happens because the ester will notably lower the water solubility of the steroid, and increase its lipid (fat) solubility. This will cause the drug to form a deposit in the muscle tissue, from which it will slowly enter into circulation as it is picked up in small quantities by the blood. Generally, the longer the ester chain, the lower the water solubility of the compound, and the longer it will take to for the full dosage to reach general circulation. Slowing the release of the parent steroid is a great benefit in steroid medicine, as free testosterone (or other steroid hormones) previously would remain active in the body for a very short period of time (typically hours). This would necessitate an unpleasant daily injection schedule if one wished to maintain a continuous elevation of testosterone (the goal of testosterone replacement therapy). By adding an ester, the patient can visit the doctor as infrequently as once per month for his injection, instead of having to constantly re-administer the drug to achieve a therapeutic effect. Clearly without the use of an ester, therapy with an injectable anabolic/androgen would be much more difficult. Esterification temporarily deactivates the steroid molecule. With a chain blocking the 17th beta position, binding to the androgen receptor is not possible (it can exert no activity in the body). In order for the compound to become active the ester must therefore first be removed. This automatically occurs once the compound has filtered into blood circulation, where esterase enzymes quickly cleave off (hydrolyze) the ester chain. This will restore the necessary hydroxyl (OH) group at the 17th beta position, enabling the drug to attach to the appropriate receptor. Now and only now will the steroid be able to have an effect on skeletal muscle tissue. You can start to see why considering testosterone cypionate much more potent than enanthate makes little sense, as your muscles are seeing only free testosterone no matter what ester was used to deploy it. 2. ACTIONS OF DIFFERENT ESTERS There are many different esters that are used with anabolic/androgenic steroids, but again, they all do basically the same thing. Esters vary only in their ability to reduce a steroid's water solubility. An ester like propionate for example will slow the release of a steroid for a few days, while the duration will be weeks with a decanoate ester. Esters have no effect on the tendency for the parent steroid to convert to estrogen or DHT (dihydrotestosterone: a more potent metabolite) nor will it effect the overall muscle-building potency of the compound. Any differences in results and side effects that may be noted by bodybuilders who have used various esterified versions of the same base steroid are just issues of timing. Testosterone enanthate causes estrogen related problems more readily than Sustanon, simply because with enanthate testosterone levels will peak and trough much sooner (1-2 week release duration as opposed to 3 or 4). Likewise testosterone suspension is the worst in regards to gyno and water bloat because blood hormone levels peak so quickly with this drug. Instead of waiting weeks for testosterone levels to rise to their highest point, here we are at most looking at a couple of days. Given an equal blood level of testosterone, there would be no difference in the rate of aromatization or DHT conversion between different esters. There is simply no mechanism for this to be possible. There is however one way that we can say an ester does technically effect potency; it is calculated in the steroid weight. The heavier the ester chain, the greater is its percentage of the total weight. In the case of testosterone enanthate for example, 250mg of esterified steroid (testosterone enanthate) is equal to only 180mg of free testosterone. 70mgs out of each 250mg injection is the weight of the ester. If we wanted to be really picky, we could consider enanthate slightly MORE potent than cypionate (I know this goes against popular thinking) as its ester chain contains one less carbon atom (therefore taking up a slightly smaller percentage of total weight). Propionate would of course come out on top of the three, releasing a measurable (but not significant) amount more testosterone per injection than cypionate or enanthate. ESTER PROFILES Sustanon: The "king" of testosterone blends. The four different testosterone esters in this product certainly look appealing to the consumer, there is no denying that. But for the athlete I think it is all just a matter of marketing (Hell, why buy one ester when you can get four?). In clinical situations I can see some strong uses for it. If you were undergoing testosterone replacement therapy for example, you would probably find Sustanon a much more comfortable option than testosterone enanthate. You would need to visit the doctor less frequently for an injection, and blood levels should be more steadily maintained between treatments. But for the bodybuilder who is injecting 4 ampules of Sustanon per week, there is no advantage over other testosterone products. Bodybuilders should probably stop looking at the four ester issue, and stick with totals (Sustanon is just a 250mg testosterone ampule). Were enanthate to be available for say $10 per amp of 250mg, buying the Sustanon would be like throwing money away. If you could get nearly double the milligram amount for the same price with enanthate, this is the better product to go with hands down. IN CONCLUSION Esters work in a well-understood and predictable manner, and do not alter the activity of the parent steroid in any way other than to delay its release. Although the lure surrounding various steroid products like testosterone cypionate, Sustanon, Omnadren etc. certainly makes for interesting conversation, realistically it just amounts to misinformation that the athlete would be better off ignoring. Testosterone is testosterone and anyone who is going to tell you one ester form of this (or any) hormone is much better than another one should do a little more research, and a lot less talking. Acetate: Chemical Structure C2H4O2. Also referred to as Acetic Acid; Ethylic acid; Vinegar acid; vinegar; Methanecarboxylic acid. Acetate esters delay the release of a steroid for only a couple of days. Contrary to what you may have read, acetate esters do not increase the tendency for fat removal. Again, there is no known mechanism for it to do so. This ester is used on oral primobolan tablets (metenolone acetate), Finaplix (trenbolone acetate) implant pellets, and occasionally testosterone. Propionate: Chemical Structure C3H6O2. Also referred to as Carboxyethane; hydroacrylic acid; Methylacetic acid; Ethylformic acid; Ethanecarboxylic acid; metacetonic acid; pseudoacetic acid; Propionic Acid. Propionate esters will slow the release of a steroid for several days. To keep blood levels from fluctuating greatly, propionate compounds are usually injected two to three times weekly. Testosterone propionate and methandriol dipropionate (two separate propionate esters attached to the parent steroid methandriol) are popular items. Phenylpropionate: Chemical Structure C9H10O2. Also referred to as Propionic Acid Phenyl Ester. Phenylpropionate will extend the release of active steroid a few days longer than propionate. To keep blood levels even, injections are given at least twice weekly. Durabolin is the drug most commonly seen with a phenylpropionate ester (nandrolone phenylpropionate), although it is also used with testosterone in Sustanon and Omnadren. Isocarpoate: Chemical Structure C6H12O2. Also referred to as Isocaproic Acid; isohexanoate; 4-methylvaleric acid. Isocaproate begins to near enanthate in terms of release. The duration is still shorter, with a notable hormone level being sustained for approximately one week. This ester is used with testosterone in the blended products Sustanon and Omnadren. Caproate: Chemical Structure C6H12O2. Also referred to as Hexanoic acid; hexanoate; n-Caproic Acid; n-Hexoic acid; butylacetic acid; pentiformic acid; pentylformic acid; n-hexylic acid; 1-pentanecarboxylic acid; hexoic acid; 1-hexanoic acid; Hexylic acid; Caproic acid. This ester is identical to isocarpoate in terms of atom count and weight, but is laid out slightly different (Isocaproate has a split configuration, difficult to explain here but easy to see on paper). Release duration would be very similar to isocaproate (levels sustained for approximately one weak), perhaps coming slightly closer to enanthate due to its straight chain. Caproate is the slowest releasing ester used in Omnadren, which is why most athletes notice more water retention with this compound. Enanthate: Chemical Structure C7H14O2. Also referred to as heptanoic acid; enanthic acid; enanthylic acid; heptylic acid; heptoic acid; Oenanthylic acid; Oenanthic acid. Enanthate is one of the most prominent esters used in steroid manufacture (most commonly seen with testosterone but is also used in other compounds like Primobolan Depot). Enanthate will release a steady (yet fluctuating as all esters are) level of hormone for approximately 10-14 days. Although in medicine enanthate compounds are often injected on a bi-weekly or monthly basis, athletes will inject at least weekly to help maintain a uniform blood level. Cypionate: Chemical Structure C8H14O2. Also referred to as Cyclopentylpropionic acid, cyclopentylpropionate. Cypionate is a very popular ester here in the U.S., although it is scarcely found outside this region. Its release duration is almost identical to enanthate (10-14 days), and the two are likewise thought to be interchangeable in U.S. medicine. Althletes commonly hold the belief than cypionate is more powerful than enanthate, although realistically there is little difference between the two. The enanthate ester is in fact slightly smaller than cypionate, and it therefore releases a small (perhaps a few milligrams) amount of steroid more in comparison. Decanoate: Chemical Structure C10H20O2. Also referred to as decanoic acid; capric acid; caprinic acid; decylic acid, Nonanecarboxylic acid. The Decanoate ester is most commonly used with the hormone nandrolone (as in Deca-Durabolin) and is found in virtually all corners of the world. Testosterone decanoate is also the longest acting constituent in Sustanon, greatly extending its release duration. The release time with Decanoate compounds is listed to be as long as one month, although most recently we are finding that levels seem to drop significantly after two weeks. To keep blood levels more uniform, athletes (as they have always known to do) will follow a weekly injection schedule. Undecylenate: Chemical Structure C11H20O2. Also referred to as Undecylenic acid; Hendecenoic acid; Undecenoic acid. This ester is very similar to decanoate, containing only one carbon atom more. Its release duration is likewise very similar (approximately 2-3 weeks), perhaps extending a day or so past that seen with decanoate. Undecylenate seems to be exclusive to the veterinary preparation Equipoise (boldenone undecylenate), although there is no reason it would not work well in human-use preparations (Equipoise certainly works fine for athletes). Again, weekly injections are most common. Undecanoate: Chemical Structure C11H22O2. Also referred to as Undecanoic Acid; 1-Decanecarboxylic acid; Hendecanoic acid; Undecylic acid. Undecanoate is not a commonly found ester, and only appears to be used in the nandrolone preparation Dynabolan, and oral testosterone undecanoate (Andriol). Since this ester is chemically very similar to undecylenate (it is only 2 hydrogen atoms larger), it has a similar release duration (approximately 2-3 weeks). Although this ester is used in the oral preparation Andriol, there is no reason to believe it carries any properties unique of other esters. Andriol in fact works very poorly at delivering testosterone, bolstering the idea that oral administration is not the idea use of esterified androgens. Laurate: Chemical structure C12H24O2. Also referred to as Dodecanoic acid, laurostearic acid, duodecyclic acid, 1-undecanecarboxylic acid, and dodecoic acid. Laurate is the longest releasing ester used in commercial steroid production, although longer acting esters do exist. Its release duration would be closer to one month than the other esters listed above, although realistically we are probably to expect a notable drop in hormone level after the third week. Laurate is exclusively found in the veterinary nandrolone preparation Laurabolin, perhaps seen as slightly advantageous over a decanoate ester due to a less frequent injection schedule. Again athletes will most commonly inject this drug weekly, no doubt in part due to its low strength (25mg/ml or 50mg/ml).
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 228 From:nj,usa Registered: Jan 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 12:42 PM |
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Wow a mouthful huh. Thanks Painkiller. I get the idea. So while all being the same it is the timing and thuis the sides might be more prevalent in the beginning of a cycle and/or at the ned when coming off. Also heard you need to taper enanthate where as sust you don't need to.
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 395 From:FL Registered: Sep 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 02:35 PM |
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The one thing you need to know also is that each ester takes up room in the mg dose, for example in each 250mg amp the enanthate will have more total test because it doesnt have the other 3 esters taking up room in the 250mg amp. So enanthate will give you better gains.Ok guys I'm ready for the rebuttles
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 228 From:nj,usa Registered: Jan 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 03:30 PM |
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In a nutshell. Enathate = better gains and more severe sides?
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Cool Novice
Posts: 12 From:ca Registered: May 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 04:27 PM |
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Everybody can react slightly different to each test. Case in point, I start to feel gyno immediately after any sustanon injection, (when used with deca,dbol). Currently I'm using testerona 200 (with deca,dbol) no sides, no itchy nips. great stuff.
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 698 From: Registered: May 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 05:03 PM |
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alright painkiller i just got done reading that entire thing.LOL are you kidding me bro, wheres the damn foot notes!!!heheh good posting.------------------ im@LRG
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Cool Novice
Posts: 12 From:Vancouver, BC, Canada Registered: Oct 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 06:56 PM |
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Ok lawnsaver, I have a rebuttal. No offense bro, but "the other 3 esters taking up room in the 250mg amp"??? The dosage has nothing to do with how much space there is in the amp. It's how much drug there is in the oil. Haven't you noticed, there is always space (air) in every amp? As for the question, test is test, sust is merely time released and therefore, more expensive (like designer test) I went to the doc for a script for an anti-inflammatory I use often and he says to me "Do you want this one instead? It's the same but time released" So I say yeah but when I go fill the script, it's like 5 times more fucking expensive. So there you go.
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 690 From:a city nearby Registered: Sep 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 07:14 PM |
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i think enanthate sucks... plain and simple. sostenon is a lot better, i say 2nd is cypionate. but that is just what works for me. i have used and abused enanthate way too long and get no results.... but that is me... you may react diff.
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Moderator
Posts: 986 From:New York Registered: Feb 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 07:16 PM |
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Enanthate worked wonders for me. No sides either.
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 68 From:Georgia Registered: Oct 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 08:12 PM |
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I have less water retention on Sus as opposed to Enan. or Cyp. Unless you are worried about clearance times - it doesn't matter which you use.------------------ Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve to death. The moral? It doesn't matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up - you had better be running.
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 395 From:FL Registered: Sep 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 08:58 PM |
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Landry, I'm not talking about space in the amp, I'm talking about space in the weight of the 250mgs. The liquid has to weigh 250mg total. So if there are four esters in the mix the have weight taking away from the amount of test.Example: If you have 30mg of teat prop, you have about 27mg of test and 3mg of ester. Thats what I mean by taking up space.
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 68 From:Georgia Registered: Oct 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 09:08 PM |
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250 Mg/CC is a concentration, not a weight. Atomic Mass Units are very, very small. I don't think the esters would have enough mass to effect the actual concentration. ------------------ Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It realizes that it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve to death. The moral? It doesn't matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up - you had better be running.
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 228 From:nj,usa Registered: Jan 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 10:12 PM |
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water retention is the only side I'm concerned with. I'm sure the gains will be equal or very close with each. So sust is less water retention in most people.
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 68 From:Georgia Registered: Oct 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 10:20 PM |
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Sus = little h20 retention - for me at least.
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Cool Novice
Posts: 14 From: Registered: Mar 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 10:26 PM |
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well lets face it... your body removes the ester, leaving you with what? testosterone... esters dont mean anything in the long run.. cypionate is not any stonger than enantate. laws of scarcity attract those who dont know any better... buy the enantate.. save your money, inject it more frequently
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 68 From:Georgia Registered: Oct 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 10:31 PM |
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Esters don't mean anything???WTF?? So half-lives and clearance times from the body don't mean anything?? If that is true why NOT use SUS on a two week cycle?? Or, better yet - Why switch to Prop on a cut, or pre-contest cycle??
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 395 From:FL Registered: Sep 2000
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posted October 28, 2000 10:49 PM |
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I have to disagree, If you have a one ester test and a 4 ester test, you losing about 15 mg in a 250mg amp, so if your taking 3 amps a week you losing alot overa 1 ester test
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 393 From: Registered: Aug 2000
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posted October 29, 2000 12:28 AM |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by lawnsaver: [B]Landry, I'm not talking about space in the amp, I'm talking about...QUOTE]Lawnsaver, why even waste your time responding to this bro? If someone does not understand the impact of an ester, fuck it!!! Later.
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 395 From:FL Registered: Sep 2000
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posted October 29, 2000 12:46 AM |
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Just trying to educate, There are many things which I dont know yet and when I need it I would like someone to educate me. It really isnt a waste of time. Thats why I keep coming back
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 212 From:Canada Registered: May 2000
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posted October 29, 2000 12:55 AM |
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Fuck all the infighting.Thanks Painkiller! That had to be one of the most understandable technical explanations of the ester question I've heard. GOOD ANSWER!
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 393 From: Registered: Aug 2000
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posted October 29, 2000 01:10 AM |
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quote: Originally posted by lawnsaver: Just trying to educate, There are many things which I dont know yet and when I need it I would like someone to educate me. It really isnt a waste of time. Thats why I keep coming back
Good answer Later,
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 395 From:FL Registered: Sep 2000
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posted October 29, 2000 01:20 AM |
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Check out my thread about fina trandermally. Roidranger attemted to flame me, but wasnt having it. I'm here to learn. I want to hear peoples experience. You can only read so many books, I want to learn from other people mistakes and triumphs
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Cool Novice
Posts: 13 From:Chandler AZ. Registered: Oct 2000
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posted October 29, 2000 01:34 AM |
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i've done both.....i see better results with the enanthate than the sus......but than again everybody is differnt. You also see more sides from the enanthate, acne, water retention and maybe gyno if you a prone to it.
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 68 From:Georgia Registered: Oct 2000
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posted October 29, 2000 10:33 AM |
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Bump for Lawn
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 994 From:Canada Registered: May 2000
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posted October 29, 2000 11:02 AM |
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Lawnsaver is right about ester's having a weight.But actually the longer the ester the more weight it has. Since sust contains some short ester's it actually has more test avail in 250mg of sust than 250mg of enanthate. The enanthate ester is a long ester and takes up more space. For the exact details. This is over my head. GymRatSD would be the best person to adress this. He is one smart dude ------------------ If it's not hard it's not worth doing...
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