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 Anabolic Discussion Board
 THE GREAT PROTEIN CONSPIRACY
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| Author | Topic: THE GREAT PROTEIN CONSPIRACY | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 962 |
Most protein companies push these "independant lab analysis" that claim that we all need 2gms of protien per pound of body weight. Well Im here to tell you I think that is bullshit. Every nutritionist and doctor I have ever talked to has told me that if anything Americans get too much protein. In fact, a nutritionist just recently told me that high protein diets are only OK for endurance athletes (marathon runners) since they burn so many calories. I know personally that I gain just as much weight on a cycle as guys know that spend all their $ on protein powder. Not only that, but many of these protein powders are incomplete amino acid chains so your body cannot even use most of what you take in. I know many of you guys swear by crazy amounts of protein, and of course you need more when your on steroids. But the human body does not need the insane amounts of protein that these supplement companies push.    | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 67 |
I have to say i agree with you totally, i just eat and eat solid food, make good gains and only use half the amount of protien powders alot of folks do! Maybe i have good genetics after all  | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 76 |
What would be considered too much powder protien? | ||
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Guru 
Posts: 2499 |
Ive often asked the same question, obviously the supplement companies want us to inhale as much as possible. I do use alot of protein/weight gain shakes, but to be honest I am using it as a crutch for lack of better 'real food'. My work life is just plain crazy right now, I know I cant eat what I need so I slurp a shake anytime I can get away for 5 mins. Its better than nothing, but Id rather have real food and so would my body. Slopain ------------------ For a good time click here: Search and Profiles (300Kleens Board) | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 706 |
OK Now you told us about the conspiracy. Why not tell us which protein shake has all the right aminos and how much protein we really need... | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 652 |
I am not sure I agree totally with you. When I don't follow my workout with a shake I tend to get sore more often. I belive it is important for recovery. If you don't like the high price drinks, go to Proteinfactory. They are cheaper than chicken, and you can make it just the way your research shows you too. ------------------ "Obsession is passion. Use it. Make it your strength." -by Puc | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 96 |
i've never been real big on the eat, eat, eat, thinking if you want to grow. i know everybody is different but i grow and don't really eat all that much more than when i'm off. i drink the shakes for the same reasons mentioned above, i have a crazy schedule and it helps when i'm not able to eat. my first few cycles i ate good foods all the time and upped my protein intake to 1.5g per lbs of body weight. my gains (even though my first cycle) weren't all that much better than my last couple of cycles. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 411 |
"Every nutritionist and doctor I have ever talked to has told me that if anything Americans get too much protein. In fact, a nutritionist just recently told me that high protein diets are only OK for endurance athletes (marathon runners) since they burn so many calories." Listening to the advice of these two poorly educated fields will keep you ignorant. Do your own investigating and stop listening to idiots. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 169 |
In order to properly use the protein and not waste it you would have to cycle it. For example, 3 days one-one and a half grams per body weight, then you would follow a 3 day (normal) intake. Digestive enzimes are a must! The reason why ther is so much confusion when it comes to protein is because some individuals can't fully digest all of it. Use digestive enzimes ALL the time. Also, do your search, study, learn, NOT ALL NUTRITIONISTS are stupid. Stillhere | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 483 |
Cockdezl - heh, good point bro. Everything that I've heard from a nutritionist is bullshit. Quite a few of them are vegitarians, and try to push their bullshit on someone else. I may not agree with your choice, but I'll respect it- don't try to cram your beliefs down my throat! When it comes down to it, you have to find what works for you. After all, isn't that what it's all about? There are so many different opinions on this subject, and maybe the best recourse is to say fuck them all, and experiment on your own. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 570 |
I'm suprised at the tone to your reply, cockdezl. Are you saying that you support this "protein conspiracy", even with your knowledge of metabolism? I don't listen to nutritionists or doctors when it comes to bodybuilding/powerlifting either, but they are not in the wrong for saying that the average athlete tends to over-do it with respect to protein. You know as well as I do that as long as you have adequate calories and a reasonable amount of protein, your body will be able to retain a great deal of nitrogen. And stillhere, those "some people" who need to use digestive enzymes have some type of metabolic deficiency. This is a serious medical condition, and not very common. And where in Muscle and Fiction did you read this protein cycling theory? I've seen plenty of bumbling fools in my gym who try these theories, but do they make any additional progress off of them? Hell no they don't. Yea, this is a flame bro, because I'm sick of seeing all these hair-brained schemes to sell more protein. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 962 |
The answer is yes. I do take the word of nutritionalists, doctors, and the FDA over Bill Philips. For a simple reason, their studies are more valid. Oh yeah, if we needed all this protein- how do you explain the unbelievable growth of people in prison? (Who have very limited diets) [This message has been edited by Mr. T (edited October 16, 2000).] | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 48 |
Great point, Mr. T.! | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
Damn right Mr. T!!!!! Gettin swole off bread and water!!!!! | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 55 |
those in prison take the real protein when they drop the soap in the shower...lol | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 160 |
those so called advices you got from thhe nutrison/doctor are good for "ordenary" pepole.every pro i talked with said aspicaly while on juice consume as much of it as you can. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 16 |
Bill Phillips would tell you anything to purchase more of his high cost wonder powders. What he neglects to tell you is how excesive protein intake taxes the liver and kidneys. High loads of dietary protein shunt the livers effort from its daily homeostatic functions to metabolising the incoming mass. Therefor, what was suppose to happen normally is delayed which can lead to toxicity. Furthermore, protein metab yields biotoxic breakdown products, such as ketones etc. The only way your body can rid itself of such poisons is via transport in the kidney. These molecules require water as a transport carrier through the renal system. This is another reason good ol Bill tells you to drink gallons of water a day. He's not concerned with your pump, he just doesnt want you to sue him after you suffer from ketosis. Real research has revealed athletes require from 0.9 to 1.2 grams of protein per KILOGRAM! Nitrogen test will aid in determining your individual need. Until then, dont over do it. There's a genetic component involved. ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 268 |
you are better off eating more protien than not enough! dont get to wraped up in science just eat good clean food and youll grow plenty of chicken , turkey ,eggs tuna etc and you carbs also of course. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 614 |
when i get hungry, i like to eat. i prefer meat when i cannot eat meat, i drink shakes KISS...keep it simple, stupid PS....do you guys know that stressing over a topic like this one can lead to excess CORTISOL release? cortisol is BAD, mmm'kay? ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 411 |
"I'm suprised at the tone to your reply, cockdezl. Are you saying that you support this "protein conspiracy", even with your knowledge of metabolism? I don't listen to nutritionists or doctors when it comes to bodybuilding/powerlifting either, but they are not in the wrong for saying that the average athlete tends to over-do it with respect to protein. You know as well as I do that as long as you have adequate calories and a reasonable amount of protein, your body will be able to retain a great deal of nitrogen." BCHEMIST, while I am not for the continuous use of super-high (400g+) protein intakes that some recommend, I am not supportive of the 0.8g/kg of BW that is pushed by nutritionists and doctors. From the studies of Peter Lemon, the more appropriate levels would be around 1.2-1.7g/kg BW for athletes. Also, we must realize that many are not on normal ratios for the macronutrients, so on a low carb/low fat diet, then the use of high protein is prudent to offset the potential for catabolism. On a normal diet, carbs and fats would offset this and become "protein sparing", so you are correct, lower protein would suffice. I am also in favor of the use of higher fats (omega-3) for their anabolic potential. Finally, I have read too many posts by people who state that after they increased their protein intake dramatically, they showed greater gains. While this is purely anecdotal, and maybe explained by many factors, I can't say that it is NOT due to the protein. Protein and fats have been erroneously maligned, by both the nutrition and medical fields, while carbohydrates have been given God-like status. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 110 |
Alright cock and bchemist, If what you guys are saying is true, i dont even need to buy protien powder with the way i will eat on my first cycle(i have time to eat hella good food). Is there any other supplement i should get (not including cran extract, primose oil, and milk thistle) to make gains better? Any other oils or amino combos or somthing? Ill get about 150 grams of protien with regular eating along with everything else that hearty foods will give you. THANX | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 53 |
I have never believed much of anything an MD told me about bodybuiding as far as drugs and food supplements go. I have a friend who is a doctor and won Mr. Indiana (his first and only contest) by blowing away the other competitors anmd he took his protein in both powders and whole food forms. What I'm getting at is that most doctors who have no personal experience with bodybuilding have no idea what they are talking about. The same goes for the average dietician. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 962 |
Rainhorn: The advice I got, and have studied, is for athletes. I cant believe some of you guys take your advice from pro bodybuilders, the unhealthiest and most toxic athletes in the world. I would like to believe that excessive protein intake results in more muscle, but their is simply no evidence to support it. (Im talking double blind studies here not "I know a guy who did this and this happend") | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 53 |
I forgot to mention in my post that this doctor friend of mine is a urologist. He said the only people at risk on a high protein diet are people with a predisposition given that you are drinking plenty of water. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 53 |
Bump | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 363 |
while on juice why not go high protein/high carbs? one of the main reason for fat intake is to stimulate testosterone production. while on juice this is not neccessary. on top of this, no matter what anyone says to demonize carbs, they are much less like to be stored as fat than FAT!! who woulda thunk it???? on my cycle i'm gonna keep fat to absolute minimum and shove carbs and protein down my throat till i can't take it anymore. during recovery fat goes back to 30%. anyway i agree with getting more protein than not enough. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 962 |
Highrep: Hes wrong. High protein intake can screw up your kidneys and lead to colon and intestinal problems. Ill provide cites if you need them- | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 363 |
go ahead Mr. T, show the studies of healthy people having problems with excess protien considering nobody "in the know" whether associated with protein or not shares that stance (that i know of). | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 207 |
so bchemist and cockdezl, are you saing that 1 gram of protein per pound of BW on a high cal diet is enough even while juicing? | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 923 |
I don't get all the fuss. It's simple there is 3 macro nutrients. Proteins, Carbs and Fats. Carbs are non essential and there for fuel only so take in only as much as you need. Fats are also a fuel yet the offer lots of metabolic benefits ie.Flax seed oil Protein is the only thing that can create muscle. I must eat 3500 calories to maintain my bodyweight... If I take more than 400 grams of carbs I start getting fat. So I need to get my calories from somewhere right? Where? Fat and Protein... I think the best diet for bodybuilding is the iso-caloric diet (33/33/33). For me that means... 3500cals 290g Protein, 290g Carbs and 130g Fats. I get 290g of protein because I don't want to add more fat or carbs to my diet and protein is the only other alternative... ------------------ | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 18 |
More important than formula's for figuring DAILY grams of protien................................... Is how many grams can YOU as an individual properly absorb IN ONE SITTING. The old standard was pretty dam low, like 21 grams,(at one time) but that was before the advent of freakishly super high consumers like are on this board. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 195 |
I'm on my 7 week and I had good gains up in til now and the only thing I have changes is my protein intake. Bro's it helps, I can tell a huge difference. I've started back up now on heavy protein and I already feel like I'm putting on the weight. Maybe it is all mental | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 41 |
isnt that a whole different question? the idea of how much we can absorb in one sitting, protein wise that is i know of a diner in venice beach, california where mad juice heads go, and they have a hot breakfast special, 20 egg whites and 2 chicken breasts for 10 bucks, this one guy i knew used to get that exact meal, but ate 2 of em in one sitting | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 117 |
I totally agree with Mr. T. I heard the same from my nutritionist ex-girlfriend and her opinion is based on science and research. Got to JAMA's website and do a search. I'm sure you'll find a lot of interesting articles. I think the body can only handle so much protein at a time-this is not a function of a persons size. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 411 |
"High loads of dietary protein shunt the livers effort from its daily homeostatic functions to metabolising the incoming mass. Therefor, what was suppose to happen normally is delayed which can lead to toxicity." Please show some studies that show that dietary protein damages HEALTHY kidneys and livers, for this is as factual as the Loch Ness Monster. "Furthermore, protein metab yields biotoxic breakdown products, such as ketones etc." Actually the most problematic byproducts of protein would be homocysteine, ammonia and urea. Ketones are not toxic, unless one is a diabetic. "This is another reason good ol Bill tells you to drink gallons of water a day. He's not concerned with your pump, he just doesnt want you to sue him after you suffer from ketosis." "Suffer from ketosis"? Have you never heard of ketogenic diets? Are these people dieing from this horrible byproduct? | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 962 |
Cockdezyl and d1734: You asked for research, here it is: "A high protein intake may unduly burden kidneys to excrete the resulting excess nitrogen (mostly as urea) into the urine. Low protein diets margninally slow the decline in kidney funtion in humans if begun early in the course of a developing kidney disease, and laboratory animal studies show that protein intake that just met the nutritional needs preserve kidney function over time better than high protein diets." Russell RM: The impact of disease states as a modifying factor for nutrition toxicity. I think you guys are missing the point of this thread. Its not that we are all going to die from taking protein, its that I think the supplement companies feed us bullshit about needing way too much protein. There is no evidence to support taking excessive protein! (from a reputable journal, no EAS studies please) | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 169 |
Bchemist. I do not care what kind of degree you have and I am not going to even discuss what kind of degree I have. The fact is that people do not digest their food properly. We all have kidney damage (to an extent) and are digestive system does not get the job done (peak performance) unless you know what to eat. The fact is that you do need digestive enzimes the older you get. That is why people suffer from colon cancer. Protein cycling is something that can be tried by someone (like many of you) who feel you cannot live without consuming 250 grams of protein per day. I am here to let you know that it is possible to taper and keep your gains. Also, I do believe that mass quantities of protein are a rip-off and can lead to problems in the future. So, in conclusion, It does not make sense to flame me because It seems we would both agree on that subject. You can flame all you want, besides I am absent in your popularity contest. If you do decide to flame again please note that I will be absent because you will be nonexistent by the time you finish reading this message. Have a great day! | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 570 |
Popularity contest...that's a new one. Anyways, if I think that you wrote something that is misleading and bullshit, I am going to tell you about it. If you can't handle that, then you need to re-evaluate. I'm glad to see that you feel that we agree, but I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in this post. Some of it makes sense, but the rest.... | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 27 |
LISTEN UP!!! The easiest way to put this topic to rest is to tell the scientific truth. After you have enough protein to be in positive nitrogen balance, any more is not needed. Everyones needs to be in positive nitrogen balance are different, depending on weight, sex, genetics, drug use, and diet. Go to your doctor and get them to run the tests, also get your uric acid tested. Excessive protein consumption leads to a buildup of uric acid, which leads to a host of painfull problems. ------------------ |
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posted October 16, 2000 12:13 PM
175lbs of PURE Sex Appeal!!!