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 Anabolic Discussion Board
 What If Someone told You....?
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| Author | Topic: What If Someone told You....? | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 1091 |
That within the grand scheme of bodybuilding, approaching this from a holistic perspective, what If someone told you steroids ranked on the lowest rung on the ladder? What if someone were to place Diet, Training, Time, and Consistincy far and away above the need for AAS? What if someone told you that assuming all those priorities are satisfied someone could accelerate their rate of individual hypertrophy for years off low doses of AAS, never exceeding 500mg of any particular substance? Would you belive that, if not explain why? This should spark some interesting debate. Bring it on! ------------------      | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 162 |
I beleive this completley, Before I even thought about AS I made sure I was able to do all of the mentioned Perfectly and was able to do it for at least two years to see If I was dedicated enough to take the next step. This should be manditory for anyone wanting to cross over to Anabolics. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 228 |
I WOULD SAY YES TWISTED STEEL, I WOULD BELIEVE IT, BUT I WOULD THROW IN THE ARGUEMENT THAT IS YOU THREW IN MORE GEAR, YOU WOULD GET EVEN BETTER RESULTS! ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 496 |
I would say that genetics are the most important factor, as we all know that there are plenty of huge guys out there whose brain size is inversely proportional to the size of their muscles. Genetics determine how sensitive you are to AS, how hard you can push yourself in the gym, and how efficient your nervious system is with respect to overtraining. Number two is training. Gear or no gear, eventually you are going to hit a plateau. If you don't know how to break through a plateau using periodization or another higher level training method, you might as well expect to just maintain where you are for the rest of your life. Number three is AS. AS are basically genetics in a bottle. They allow your body to efficiently synthesize protein, and sometimes heighten your levels of aggression that allows you to train harder in the gym. They also effectively compete with cortisol to negate it's catabolic and stress inducing effects. Rest and nutrition come in at a distant last. If you are eating calories over your BMR, chances are you are creating a positive environment for nitrogen retention. And I have know plenty of guys who get 5-6 hours of sleep per night on AS who neither overtrain nor fail to make gains. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 446 |
What if your first cycle consisted of 1000mg/wk of test. What's next for your 2nd, 3rd, etc. Always start low and work your way up. Probably get flamed for this because of the popular belief "first cycle is best your best cylce" go big theory. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 80 |
Got to again ,agree with my Guru on this one. Thats why he's my Guru. ------------------ THE UNITED CHI-TOWN FREAKS | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 186 |
This is how I started and I am 290 at 21 years Old I train with juiceygirls husband Big Mo FO. I started reseaching it in high shool useing my friends as rats And built my way up after my first year in college. | ||
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Freak 
Posts: 1877 |
Absolutely agreed.Without all the other factors properly in place,you will always be short-changing your results.A/S are merely a compliment that accelerates the results of these other factors. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 516 |
I agree also....Gear is simply a supplement! | ||
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Freak
Posts: 1613 |
Anabolic Steroids = Supplements that actually work, nothing more, nothing less. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 520 |
TS: Looks like you're getting a lot of agreement on this one, and I'll join in. Don't know about the low dose AS thing, and I'll gladly defer to the vets and mods on that one, but anyone who fails to put, as you say, Diet, Training, Time, and Consistency in priority position is a fool. If they're not putting priority on these, and they're on AS, they're a poor fool, and maybe an ill fool, as well. Personally, I believe that Consistency is vastly undervalued as an ingredient of bodybuilding. As Woody Allen (a real pro BB if there ever was one!) often says, "90% of success is just showing up!" and that's as true in the gym as anywhere else. Just show up, day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year, and you'll grow. Thanks for the reminder, TS. Be well, and lift heavy. Bjaarki ------------------ BECOME SOMEONE'S HERO! | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 20 |
Currently I'm on my cycle of creatine and ripped force. Also, regarding this topic I think it depends on one's enviornment. I think if kids play rough sports and exercise they actually increase their genetic potential than if the played video games every day. Do kids with muscles just happen to become more athletic? Do the fatter kids who need glasses just happen to like dungeons and dragons? I think it's a cause and affect. When you're young and your muscles and bones aren't fully developed what you do stimulates growth or atrophy in certain areas. I was a gymnast when I was younger, but got into football and lifting from high school on. To this day my upper body responds to training better than my legs. Both areas get stronger, but I've never been able to bring my legs into proportion with my upper body. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 132 |
TS I agree with you. Genetics bullshit. They mean nothing unless you are competing then they make that little difference in winning or not. First off train hard!!!!!! If your nutrition is not good you won't gain anything. Consistency yes. Time most important you gain lean mass at first then your muscles start getting shape after a few years no matter what your genetics are. AS will help speed up the journey and add mass, but without the rest AS is a waste of money. Train hard be smart and stay with it. ------------------ | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 42 |
i think that if someone cant put all those together they should never even consider doing A/S. i had a goal and i knew that training naturally i wasnt going to be able to acheive it. A/S is just another supplement that works really good!! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 893 |
I certainly agree with the training, time and consistency. Genetics is even more important, but not (currently) under our control. I think the number of BIG mofos in prison amply demonstrates the importance of rest and consistent training over time. They achieve great muscular development by merely training and resting on a shitty diet. I would put diet towards the bottom of the list. As long as you're getting enough calories, and aren't deficient in any major nutrients I think you can make good gains without AS. I'm not sure about the 500mg per week. I know 3 guys who consistenly make good gains by just cycling 500mg Sus per week plus 20mg DBOL per day. They've been doing this for years, and still come in bigger and better every year. It's cheap, doesn't require clomid/Nolvadex and doesn't turn your butt into a pincushion. Not too hard on the liver either. But maybe this has more to do with their genetics? | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 20 |
Agreed Nutrition being the highest with intensity thrown in with consistancy and time, AAS is a supp. that unlike legal supps. actually do work, but AAS alone is nothing more than a waste of good money! Master the prime ingredients and throw some AS to your menu and your results are endless you will only concour your goals if you have a positive mind, drive and dedication to the sport that you have chosen. This applies to anything you do in life! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1091 |
Who'a Bchemist said that diet ranked last on his hierarchy! Take a look back at his reason why? Is it that simple, just eat more food? Is it as simple as More Calories in equals more nitrogen retention within tissue? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited October 05, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 130 |
Even at low dosages, over a period of time would receptor sites not become saturated with the same substance. ~Goku~ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 893 |
Yup Twisted, I agree with Bchemist. I experiment on myself all the time. Just get enough calories and don't obsess with your diet. Train train train train and then train some more. But I need rest to grow. Or rather, if I don't get enough rest I can't train with enough intensity to grow. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1091 |
Wouldn't be naive to attribute the lessening effects of a particular AAS, at whatever dose we deem to be low, simply because of receptor downregulation and or saturation? Would we then not have to attribute the same level of significance to the plateuing natural bodybuilder? Highly unlikely, given the daily production of the average male ranges anywhere from 2.5 - 12mg. Something to think about gents?
------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited October 05, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 132 |
diet plays a big role. not just calories but the right kind of calories at the right time. I still say genetics are not that important for the average joe. some people are taller than other people and some people are bigger boned than other people. anyone can build muscle some more than others but so what? we all have the potential to make what we have look good. i agree AS is really just a good supplement. no matter how much you use unless you combine everything else you won't gain. ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 496 |
I don't have any idea what bigal looks like, but in my experience it is the people with the best genetics who always say that genetics does not play a role. Genetics is EVERYTHING. For some reason, these genetically gifted individuals refuse to admit that they are blessed. It's like they would be admitting to cheating or something. Or to be genetically gifted carries the stigma of laziness..... Be proud of your genetic gifts. I envy you. | ||
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Moderator 
Posts: 2658 |
Nice little debate here....let's play the devils advocate...eh?? 1st...What is considered a low dosage...what is low for me, may be through the roof for others. 2nd...The path of the ester, and the half life will play a major role as well...in other words, 200mg's of Enanth. every other day, or 100mg's of Prop. Every other day. Alot of this depends on the stack. 3rd...I do love it when people say I'm starting low at 500mg's a week of Sus 250, 300mg's of Deca, and 25mg's of dbol....Got news for ya....that's alot of shit floating around in there!!! 4th...Diet and Training Intensity is everything, whether on cycle, or off... Lastly...The first cycle is the best, in no way should you do a gram a week, but you must know your body inside and out, and find a happy medium somewhere....In Ranger's words...Jack Big, or Jack Off!!!! Heh heh heh | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 132 |
hey ranger you know a lot depends on how much you have already done in your life. i wish i could redo a few things and that is one. make yourself an expert before you do any AS. then a little or a lot is only relevant to amount of usage. bchemist check me out. i posted my pic once its at http://www.dell.homestead.com/conan/Profiles4.html ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 699 |
Not much left to say that hasn't been said. Nutrition & Training are def. #1 and everything else should be in place before starting AS. Like someone has already said, "steroids are just a supplement that actually works" and very well! ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 496 |
Bigal, I must say I'm impressed by how you still look like that at 47. Obviously if you don't take advantage of what you are genetically capable of doing then genetics don't mean squat. I just want to emphasize here that a genetically gifted person can do everything haphazardly and still look great. But doing it haphazardly will never enable them to look extraordinary. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 132 |
bchemist i agree 100% with that statement. we all have a certain limited potential but time and consistency will shape your muscles. i am in the best shape of my life and i have been very athletic all my life. even as big as i am i shoot in the high 70's in golf. my point is that no matter what our genetics are if one is willing to work hard we can make ourselves muscular and look physically fit. you know i really started lifting at about 35 and it took about 5 years until i my muscles really started looking good "good shape" and my max cycle has been a lot less than a lot of first cycles. i don't make a lot of posts but i do read a lot of them on here. i couldn't imagine doing some of the cycles i have seen posted. anatomically or financialy. ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 859 |
1. GENETICS 2. Training 3. Rest 4. AAS 5. Nutrition | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 84 |
i like how The Truth put it so simple. I think rest, nutrition and training should'nt be ranked one over the other but should be delt w/ as a hole. And genetics is the deciding factor.Steroids is a key that introduces us to a relm that we would otherwise have no access to.That been said my priorities is as follows. 1.Genetics( not 1st priority but the overall inate deciding factor that determines what our natural potential ) 2.Training,nutrition and rest 3.Steroids | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 576 |
AJC nailed it, there spplements not magic bullets. I get this all the time, somebody contacts me and whines about "I'm not growing, and I'm taking this, this and that". After a few minutes we find their eating fast food sporadically, drinking with the boys a few nights a week, and getting 4 hours sleep a night!!!! Then they have the gaul to say they don't have a set schedule for when they work each muscle, they go "instinctively". All I can do is just shake my head. This is a big puzzle with many pieces that all need to be addressed!!!! | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 18 |
Genics is first and foremost. Genetics determines your ability to recooperate and grow. Hell, if you go into the gym and have no response, you're not going to last long. Not to mention genetics determines perseverance, genetic hinderences (such as asthma, obesity, or whatnot) that would prevent one from even working out. When considering genetics, you have to compare yourself to the rest of the world rather than to us already here. Obviously we all have the good genetics for we wouldn't be where we're at. Even then, to be in the top of our field, you have to be somewhat tall with the long muscles, have good body porportions, and would do even better if considered good looking. To achieve the utimate shape in bodybuilding genetics is all there is to be said. If you're 5'1", you can train and cycle until you're blue (Here comes all the "hey,I'm 5'1"). If you don't have it, you don't have it. Sure, you'll get "big", but who are you comparing yourself to? Those of us already in the field, or the rest of the world? Either way, genetics will determine your standings. All AS will do is help you reach your best within the limits of your genetic capabilities. I completely agree with bchemist in his structure of importance. [This message has been edited by IronMike (edited October 06, 2000).] | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 39 |
THIS WAS A VERY INTERESTING DEBATE! iTS REALLY HARD FOR ME TO READ THIS AS A NATURAL BODYBUILDER. iTS GREAT TO SEE THAT MANY OF YOU AT THE VERY LEAST HAVE DONE YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE DOIN THE SAUCE. I REALLY BELIEVE ITS ALL ABOUT YOUR MISSION IN LIFE. ARE YOU CHASING SOME DREAM OR ARE YOU MAKING A LIVING BEING A BB. I BELIEVE THAT AT THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN WHEN YOU CANT GO ANY FURTHER YOU MAY JUST NEED A LADDER TO GET YOU TO THE NEXT LEVEL. BUT, UNTIL YOU HAVE TRIED THE CLIMB DONT USE THE LADDER BECAUSE YOU WILL ALWAYS WONDER HOW FAR YOU COULD HAVE GONE WITHOUT IT. | ||
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Novice 
Posts: 7 |
good point Punch, if you are dedicated you can get far naturally, however to unlock your bodies FULL potential you will have to supplement with some gear. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 21 |
I agree with yoda, and ajc... steroids are supplements that work. NO hype, no glitz advertising, just the facts that they work. Too bad there isn't an EAS supplement/as contest! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1091 |
Lets add yet another issue to converse over. All of use have seen this within our gyms at some point in time. Being on the shallow end of the gene pool, I can't help but recognize my superiors. What of those genetic freaks who lack desire and ambition? I have seen it on many ocassions, these are the people that defy all the rules, approach bodybuilding with laxidasical indifference that just makes you wanna puke. What would you rather be? The genetically blessed who could grow larger by simply breathing gym air, yet lack all semblence of disipline. Or one of average genetics who achieved all he could through superior intellectual planning, dilligence, dedication, and hardwork? Assuming that the obvious answer is a combination of both, for the sake of arguement assume thats not possible. Pick one and argue your point!
[This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited October 06, 2000).] | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 39 |
NICE INSIGHT BRO! I AGREE THAT INTENSITY AND HARDWORK WILL SHOW THE FRUITS OF LABOR. FOR THOSE OF US BLESSED WITH GOD LIKE GENETICS ALL THE POWER TO YOU. FOR THOSE WHO ARE ON THE QUEST TO TAP EVERY FIBER OF MUSCLE IN THEIR BEING ON AS OR OFF. WE ALL SHARE ONE COMMON GROUND "WE DO NOT WANT TO BE ORDINARY" JUST LIKE THE HUMAN MIND HAS NEVER BEEN TAPPED TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL SO GOES THE HUMAN BODY AS WELL. WE ARE ALL ARTISTS IN OUR OWN RIGHT.I MAY NOT AGREE WITH YOUR METHOD OF PAINTING YOU MAY NOT AGREE WITH MINE BUT NEVERTHELESS WE ARE ALL ARTISTS. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 995 |
All of a sudden "GENETICS" is all that mathers. This means that in the old days "GENETICS" where not THAT important. But now everyone takes more roids than our friend Arnold ever did. Now almost every natural thinks he could beat Arnold "anytime". Give me a break. It is the same as "HIT". In the seventies "high intensity training was indeed "IT". So what is new ? ------------------ Don't look back, life is too short | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 39 |
THE DIFFERENCE IS ATTITUDE. WHEN ARNOLD WAS IN HIS PRIME DO YOU REALLY THINK HE NEW WHAT THE HELL HE WAS PUTTING IN HIS BODY? NONE OF THOSE GUYS DID. BACK THEN IT WAS ALL INSTINCTIVE. I REMEMBER WHEN MY UNCLE TOOK ME TO A GYM CALLED THE DUNGEON IN THE BRONX ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO. I LOOKED AT THESE GUYS WHO TRAINED LIKE THEY WERE CAGED ANIMALS ALL TOOK JUICE BUT HAD NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT THEY WERE PUMPING INTO THEIR BODIES. THE POINT IS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GIFTED GENETICALLY DONT SEEM TO MAX OUT THEIR GIFT. THESE GUYS ALL HAD A GIFT AND EXPLOITED EVERY BIT THEY COULD. NOWADAYS SHIT WORKS SO GOOD I SEE A LOT OF LAZINESS OUT THERE. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 18 |
I think most missed my point. I am saying that us even being where we're at now proves (to me) that we have already met the genetic requirements over those that sit on the sidelines and talk shit about us. But had it not been for our genetics getting us this far, we would have never made it, hence genetics is my obvious first pick of importance. You got to think of all those out there who just dream of being at our level but either physically can't or it's just too far out of their reach. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 125 |
TS...whew! You like stirring these guys up, huh? My take is a bit different than most of you. I will agree with the assertion that genetic attributes are the primary factor here. Curiously, nobody fessed up about steroids being second. Perhaps it is because of the absence of a defining threshold of sustenance. Assuming that we understand the context of the question (one cannot live on steroids, and in that regard, food is more important), we must admit that exogenous chemical therapies are the PRIMARY controllable factor in bodybuilding achievements. An organism's growth is a chemical phenomenon. The particulars of nutrient dispersion and resulting tissue development are chemically defined. Exercise stimulates growth via chemical means. Why then are you so convinced that steroids are not that big of a factor? I'll tell you why. To admit the importance of steroid therapy is dangerously close to siding with misconceptions widely held by the public at large. Tell yourselves what you will, but the extent to which we go to obtain good drugs seems directly proportional to their importance, and is surely an indicator of the truth! | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 496 |
Fukkenshredded, your point is absolutely correct. My heirarchy of importance is in a slightly different context. I'm taking it from the point of view of a powerlifter who has maxed out his natural training, and finds, at the end of a powerlifting cycle phase, he is maybe 1% stronger after 10 weeks. That makes natual training no longer feasible, thus anabolics are introduced. Suddenly the plateau is broken while the technique remains the same. Which is more important? Well for me there cannot be one without the other. If I was to refer to the standard 4 sets of 8 method I might gain size, but I will regress or just maintain in strength. I've experimented with this. Subsequently after the cycle, this muscle gained without the corresponding strength gain is most quickly lost. Stength training produces "Mass that lasts" in my experience. Glad to see you posting again....I watched your posts during the month before I joined the board and was disappointed to realize that you had left once I joined. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1091 |
Hmm, on a continueum of importance I surely wouldn't give hormones any more credit than necessary! However, thats from my individual perspective. Although I am still sacrificing to educate myself on this issue, obviously I think them to be valuable tools to which we achieve our ends. However, bodybuilding would not die if steroids ceased to be produced! I think hormone therapy aside from the ergogenic and hypertrophic value it presents to bodybuilders, is supereceeded by the ability these drugs have to enrich the lives and better quality of living for older Americans. When would you find hormones to be most benefitial and enriching? When your 23, or when your 43? ------------------ | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 18 |
In the pursuit of our interests, achieving a healthy looking body and lifestyle can easily be accomplished w/o steroids usage. However, these same goals could not be accomplished w/o genetics, nutrition, or training. If push came to shove, I could do w/o steroids and continue on as I have done thus far (this is my first cycle). I only use steroids because I have decided to take my commitment to the next level. Steroids (to me)is soley looked at as a fast and easy means to an end, mearly a supplement in the bigger picture. I would never consider steroids a primary consideration of my choice of lifetyle, only a far secondary. Steroids, in my opinion, is at the bottom of the list of importance and should be considered a treat, not the meal. If steroids were to be wiped off the face of the earth right now, how many of you would stop pursuing your bodybuilding goals. I sure wouldn't! | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 79 |
Ts, I think hormones are most benefitial when you are 43!! That�s the age you really need them...for youth. For BB I�d say 23 for most results. Interesting topic. ------------------ | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 26 |
TS, regarding your second to last post, I'll take option number 2. Characteristics and skills such as diligence and planning are qualities that will help one to succeed in all venues of life, not just the gym. Granted, great genetics are an asset in the weightroom, if one does not more importantly possess the aforementioned qualities, he/she will likely fail at other endeavours in their life outside and inside the gym. |
All times are ET (US) | |
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posted October 05, 2000 04:13 PM