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 Anabolic Discussion Board
 Muscular Fatique & Overtraining
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| Author | Topic: Muscular Fatique & Overtraining | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 1080 |
Muscle soreness is almost always an indicator that your muscles are still repairing themselves. After exercise, the release of an amino acid called hydroxyproline is released to repair microtrauma in the muscle fibers. Being a very toxic substance, hydroxyproline irritates the nerve endings, causing tenderness (soreness is NOT caused by lactic acid, by the way). Re-training these unrecovered muscles will only damage them more - if you repeat this pattern habitually, you may very well end up with a traumatic injury. Without question, listen to your body. There are a number of articles and surveys abundant which illustrate to rate of overtraining! It is the single most prevalent goal skewing affect amongst novices involved in resistance training! Keep this in mind, and watch how well your body responds, even it it pushes your traditional deadlift day back 48 hours. You'll thank me in the end! This is especially true for all of you currently training off the bean! Yet another aspect responsible for the preservation of muscle mass off AAS cycles, is a reduction in volume, along with adjustments in recooperative abilities! Your not going to recover as efficiently as you did while on the bean! Im amazed by the processes of the body, by reminding the willing listener of this, I re-enforce what the principles taught to me! Im currently non-chemcially enhanced, and reliving the splendors of a depressed recovery system. "Note my sarcasim"
[This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited October 03, 2000).]      | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 209 |
I will play Devils advocate and disagree with that statement. Here is why....each muscle has a different ratio of slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibres making up the muscle,and we all know that they both respond differently to different types of trainig ie-reps,rest and intensities can be varied to target those specific muscle fibres.This means that slow and fast twitch muscle fibres do not recover at the same rate which would lead to one recovering before the other.Take hamstrings for example they are predominately comprised of fast twitch muscle fibres so they respond to lower reps and longer rest periods at higher intensities,now if since they don't have a equal ratio the slow will obviosly recover before the fast which would mean even if your sore you could still hit the hams but would have to specifically target the slow twitch fibres of the hamstring. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 376 |
Thanks for some good info about why I get sore. I myself tend to overtrain at least once a year. The more is better idea just causes a lot of problems in the weightlifting arena. Trust your body, not your mind, your body. I am keeping true to no more than 4, usually 3 workouts in a 7 day period. I used to train 5-6 days a week and had injuries and shit all the time. Less is better, if the intensity is there. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Mac, glad to hear can you play devils advocate, but what the hell does your point have to do with Hydroxyproline and recooperation?  ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 638 |
dont you just love when some idiot in the gym tells you, oh come on just push thru it--when you know your overtrained! you tell them your overtrained and they say dont be a pussy, yet i dwarf them and he has the nerve to say im lazy cause im bigger then them, keep overtraining little buddy w/ that routine of yours--im sure youll catch me!LOL ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 209 |
All I'm saying is you can train a sore muscle.I would be careful in doing so if you do not know what your doing and your simply going to the gym and just training the same way you did when you worked the muscle last. Muscles recover at different rates. Do I belive this...YES but I wouldn't do it all the time like you said. Just adding in some info to what knowledgable info you have posted already. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 796 |
Good post TS, some good info, we need more posts like these......not where did all my posts go....who cares about that shit, I'm here to learn not count numbers of posts.......just an example......... ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Indeed, uhuh I can also bench press seven days a week, yes believe it or not I can. But, the underlieing point to all this, despite ability, is that training sore tissue is counter productive towards hypertrophy oriented trainin. But, good point on your second post Mac. Thanks [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited October 03, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 123 |
Ok, Twisted.. Quick question I agree w/ you when you said lactic acid does not cause soreness, but you didn't really mention what does. Is it true that the sourness is actually caused by the Pyruvic acid in the system?? If so can't the speed of recovery (as far as soarness goes) be helped by simply drinking alot of fluid?? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 123 |
By the way, I love reading your posts. Hope you plan to stick around here. I'm sure everybody else feels the same to. | ||
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Freak 
Posts: 1539 |
FINALLY A TS POST I CAN UNDERSTAND!!!LOL!!!!! and...i actually agree with him on this one.. you will find you will grow faster giving your muscles the recoup time it needs, instead of blitzing them when their still sore...remember growth occurs after the workout with rest and nutrition!! ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 505 |
Nice post, TS. I, too, would like to see more posts of this caliber. Learned something here. I'm not a big believer in overtraining (under-recuperating, yes, but not overtraining, and there IS a difference), so I don't like to see threads get started on that misunderstood and overused concept, but I have to admit that I rarely train a sore muscle. I have a nice sixway split that allows me to lift six days a week without overtraining, but that's a whole different story. Just wanted to add my props for a nice post. Keep 'em comin', Twisted Steel. BTW, when you gonna start GROWIN', bro? Seems like you've been weighing in at "215LBS of Twisted Steel and Pure Sex Appeal" for ages now, man! Ain't it time yet to rehab the old signature line? Be well, and lift heavy, brother. Bjaarki ------------------ BECOME SOMEONE'S HERO! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Harmonic, I think you will recognize this answer, its probably some where in the back of your mind. Resistance training promotes muscular soreness because as you have read in the past, quite literally we are causing physical trauma to muscular tissue! These tears within the trained muscle are microscopic, yet significant enough to produce a neurological sensation of pain! The body then dispatchs many mechanisms to heal this damaged tissue, one of them happens to br hydroxyrolein, which is an amino acid!
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Novice 
Posts: 8 |
"Mac, glad to hear can you play devils advocate, but what the hell does your point have to do with Hydroxyproline and recooperation?"
Let me break it down for you like this. You said: "If you train you arms and they are still sore, then you can't train them again." Come on man....you made a good point, now back it up while tring to find the truth....not just trying to prove you are right... | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 123 |
Thanks! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Calm down little buddy, it doesn't impress me when your emotionally assertive in your dialouge under the obvious guise of a pseudonym. Go get your real nick name so I can humiliate you properly! LOL, you kids and your nick switching! ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 123 |
Only if I has a thesaurus (sp?) then maybe I could sound smart too.. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 82 |
Twisted_steel what do u mean by sore? like that when u flex it hurts or if u stretch it feels a little sore?? like are u supposed to feel 100% every time u train a muscle group (im confused) | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 123 |
Omega, TS seams to be in a shitty mood. Be ready to get bashed from him on your question. I did. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 82 |
hahah no its a serious question. i want to be sure of this, because i dont wana wait like 2 weeks until im feeling 100% then work out the muscle again. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Bash, Harmonic you think my answer was a "bash"? Ok, sorry to impart that. Only person I had some fun with was verbal gorilla. With respect to the use of a "thesarus" please man. First you would have to spell it correctly to "sound smart". Then again, to quote the Rock, I can wipe a monkey's ass with some of your opinions of me! This is a net discussion forum, nothing more. I do this because I take pleasure in learning and helping, not to be your buddies, idols, or personal "gurus". Whatever the hell that means. Look how this topic has strayed from its intended course. Gezuz, I can't belive I might actually have to enrich Spellwin to avoid this emotional bullshit! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited October 03, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 123 |
Ok, I guess I felt that your (!) at the end of each sentance was a little harsh. Thats all. It felt like you were yelling or something. And you didn't mention anything about the Pyruvic acid part of my question. It's good to know that you not here to make friends. We will just use you for your brains and keep the friendly remarks (like the one I posted above about how I like to read you posts) to ourselves. I respect you as a person TS but your pretty fucking moody. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 584 |
TS Lol you do have a way with words. Funny bro. ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Nono, Ill look over this post. I dont like offending good people. I do sometimes get carried away, I dont think I did here, but never the less Ill keep any abrasion to a minimum! Well, except for Verbal Gorilla, little nugget! ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 123 |
Ok, it's a dill pickle. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1083 |
Thanks for another great post Steel. It is nice to see you are still willing to share your insight and opinions with us peons. Twisted_Steel doesn't even talk to me anymore because I am his most ardent critic when it comes to him being condescending. I read this whole thread twice, he made a great point there was an obscure counter-point that did not address the issues he raised. He went on to be as courteous and well manored as anyone on this board in pointing that out. He's not in any mood and he's not bashing anyone. Steel when you're right you're right there is no need to defend anything you said here. [This message has been edited by ulter (edited October 03, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 71 |
thanks Twisted_Steel & guys i know my vocabulary is poor but i am not here for the spelling bee. i am here to make my beef grow & make some Friends ------------------ | ||
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Freak
Posts: 1752 |
Another terrific thread by the gifted guru T.S..BTW,I believe you're being incredibly gentle here,T.S.,HEH,HEH. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 143 |
When did they come out with a definitive answer as to why delayed onset muscle soreness happens? Last I checked, they were still debating calcium leakage, microtearing etc. Just curious. Peace! ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 118 |
Here's an angle: What if the goal is to increase the number of a specific fiber type? Wouldn't the body compensate for a perceived inadequacy? I wonder if the optimum time to retrain a group is SLIGHTLY before full recovery. (Could it be?) Sort of like getting that sunburn that doesn't peel, but actually turns tan. Hyperplasia in the delts of swimmers and the forearms of gymnasts. A disproportionate number of one type of fiber. Interesting, at least to me. Body becoming its function? Hmmm.... | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 358 |
"After exercise, the release of an amino acid called hydroxyproline is released to repair microtrauma in the muscle fibers. Being a very toxic substance, hydroxyproline irritates the nerve endings, causing tenderness (soreness is NOT caused by lactic acid, by the way)." TWISTED, where did you read this? I was not aware of this and I am interested in finding more on this topic. From my understanding, hydroxyproline is released due to damage to the connective tissue, not muscular, and is simply excreted in the urine. This is why scientist use HP levels as an indicator of connective tissue damage. I was also not aware that it was toxic or irritating. It is a constituent of Jello, along with hydroxylysine. Please give me a link or reference to find out more concerning this. | ||
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Freak
Posts: 1752 |
Holy shit!Twisted_Steel,cockdezl & our long lost guru fukkenshredded all in the same thread!This is one of the many reasons I will continue to frequent this great board..... | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 154 |
thanks bro | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Macrophage, er cockdzel.... I believe this came from a strength article by Charles Staley! I have a cess pool for a mind, everything kinda collects. Let me search through my rubbish I bet I have a hard copy of the article.------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited October 04, 2000).] | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Ahh found it, but I dont have a scanner! So here goes the next best thing. Just e-mailed charles here is the content of that e-mail. Ill post his reply once it's sent to me.
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 418 |
Hey TS, that is very interesting and I agree with you to a point. You can, however, train a muscle for increased neurological function and then 36-48 hours later train it for hypertrophy. I think this is where some trainers go wrong in telling people to go "light" when working a sore muscle. The best bench routines that I have seen suggest using speed reps two days before or after your heavy bench day to train your body to contract more of the muscle. Also, don't forget about neurological recovery when discussing recovery. Just because a muscle is repaired doesn't mean the person is mentally ready to work that particular muscle again. Later, | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1080 |
Ahh Giant Set knows a little bit about West Side Barbell and Louie Simmons. Yes, thats the excpetion when were talking about speed day vs. max effort day. Targeting the central nervous system through gym speed work. But, people who employ those techniques can wipe a monkeys ass with hypertrophy! They want big movements, only. So you can see why I omitted this from my post. ------------------ | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 17 |
TS, could you post any good sources of info that your remember. I'm presently trying to consume as much as I can before setting up my next cycle. Thx | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 24 |
Good post, did someone already say that? I have to agree, but I will take it a step further and see what you all think. If my chest is sore after working out on day1 lets say, it is very sore on day2 and slightly on day3 so it has not completely repaired/recuperated. My body only has so much ability to recuperate. On day1-day2 it's main focus is on my chest. However on day2 I work out legs also. So on day2-3 my body is using 50% of its adaptive recuperative ability to reapir my chest and 50% on my legs. This does not seem very smart. It will now take even longer (if it even happens) for my chest to recuperate, and the same for my legs. But lets say I work back on day3, then it just adds up. My body trying to repair one thing then I just keep stacking on the workload. I hope you all can understand what I'm saying. This is what I think if you say that soreness is related to muscle fatigue. However I have always read that it is only indirectly related, ie they start from the same thing but thats where the comparison ends. I won't even try to get into that, because I don't know enough about it. But I will say this, when I wrestled in highschool I know I was highly overtrained. We had hardcore practices 5 days a week. The thing that always stumped me is that I always came in sore as hell on Tuesday's practice (from Monday) but after the practice I wasn't sore and wouldn't be for the rest of the week. Now I do not think that I was simply not overtraining on all the other days of the week, because I definietly was (I was eating nearly nothing and usually felt pretty shitty). I don't know, that's my two points maybe you all can tear them apart. later pX |
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posted October 03, 2000 08:03 PM
