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  Susta and Deca first cycle, better?

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Author Topic:   Susta and Deca first cycle, better?
Mrfox

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Aug 2000

posted September 23, 2000 04:40 PM

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This will be my first cycle, what do U think? I'm not expecting a huge gain(not possible with that dosage), maybe 10-12lb.
H:182-183cm
BW:83kg(182-183lb?)
Bf:12-14%(I think)
Cal: 3500-4000
Protein:3/kgBw=1.5g(aprox.)/lbBW

A few of U said that susta only wont do much, what about this one then, sus and Deca

Week Sust Deca Clomid

1 250mg 200mg 50mg EOD
2 250mg 200mg 50mg EOD
3 250mg 200mg 50mg EOD
4 250mg 200mg 50mg EOD
5 250mg 200mg 50mg EOD
6 250mg 200mg 50mg EOD
7 250mg 200mg 50mg EOD
8 250mg 200mg 50mg EOD
9 50mg ED
10 50mg ED


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dieselnj

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 79
From:JERSEY BABY
Registered: Jul 2000

posted September 23, 2000 06:43 PM

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Double the dosage of deca. Just my opinion.

------------------
Because there is nothing worse in life than being ordinary.


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Hudson

Cool Novice

Posts: 32
From:California
Registered: Jun 2000

posted September 23, 2000 07:15 PM

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Bro...Double both Sus and Deca. That there is a great first cycle.IMHO

Hudson


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Maverik

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 323
From:Top Gun Flight School!!
Registered: Sep 2000

posted September 23, 2000 07:47 PM

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You don't have to double everything for the gains you are after. But I would up the deca to at least 300 or 400 mg per week. 200 is not much at all. As for the sust, unless you are looking for over 25 lbs, just leave it like it is. And also, you might want to take the clomid a little differently. Do this: take 100 mg per day in weeks 9 and 10 and take 50 mg per day in week 11. Sust is in your system for up to 3 weeks so taking the clomid for only two weeks post cycle is not enough. Three weeks minimum. Good Luck bro. Keep us posted on your progress.


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Maverik

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 323
From:Top Gun Flight School!!
Registered: Sep 2000

posted September 23, 2000 10:50 PM

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I'll bump it for you bro. The more opinions, the better.


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DSPO

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 52
From:
Registered: Aug 2000

posted September 23, 2000 11:30 PM

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I agree with Maverick on the Clomid. Monster had a good thread regarding when to use the Clomid and I thought that it made a lot of sense. I will attach his original post below.

I like the diamond approach for the Deca.

200mg
300mg
300mg
400mg
400mg
300mg
300mg
200mg

============== Monsters Post ==============
Ok, I'll try and lay it out here, even though it probobly wont change most peoples minds. We're creatures of habit in the bodybuilding community. Even more so than "regular" people. We fear change, and subscribe to the belief that "It has always worked this way, it always will."
Its human nature.
But I feel the topic of HCG needs to be addressed, because there are so many misconceptions about it, going back to day one of its use.
WHAT HAPPENS POST-CYCLE?
When you come off a cycle, you are dealing with a situation where the testes have stopped producing testosterone becasue of the excess of it in your body. This makes the leydig cells shut down, and throws off the HPTA. The HPTA shuts down, and you go into a kind of "no testosterone production" loop. HPTA suppressed, leydig cells suppressed and the reverse. So there you are trying to get your natural testosterone production back online. At one point people used HCG...

WHAT IS IT?
Ok, HCG is extracted from the urine of pregnant women. Its a protien that passes from their bodies whole and intact, and needs only to be "refined". That may sound gross, but its completely sterile and suitable for injection. It causes the production of estrogen, and aids in ovulation in anovulatory women.
WHY WOULD WE USE IT?
Heres where the problem occurs... HCG closely resembles luetinizing hormone (LH). It is one of the hormones that is produced when the HPTA (hypothalmic axis)is healthy (the other is follicle stimulating hormone, or FSH). This would stimulate the leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone.
The fact that was misunderstood is that it isnt just the resemblance to LH that causes this "boost" to the leydig cells.
SO WHATS THE PROBELM?
The cause for the influx of testosterone is not just HCG's resemblance to LH, its a simple matter of the body striking a balance. The HCG causes an estrogen increase, and the body attempts to strike equilibreum by increasing testosterone (the reverse happens when you use exogenous test, which is why anti-e's are often needed off cycle). So your natural testosterone is stimulated via the leydig cells to bring a balance. So whats the problem with that? Seems like "mission accomplished"?
Well, a great many people develop gyno from HCG use (in fact many people use anti-e's with it, whice decreases the effectivness of it). But even looking past that, there is a BIGGER problem!
The HCG is doing what the exogenous testosterone did, but via a different path. HCG is causing an artifical rise in testosterone and is therefore STILL SUPPRESSING THE HPTA! So when you discontinue the HCG, your HPTA is still suppressed and your pretty much at square one.
HOW DID IT ALL GET STARTED?
Well, it has its uses. If you do not come off, and just bridge between cycles, you may need to use it for reasons having to do with supressed sex drive, or if testicular atrophy has become a bother (read: embarassing). I think that this is the whole reason for it gaining popularity. Pros (who most often bridge) use it, so people who DONT bridge thought it was "the thing".
SO WHAT DO I DO?
The only option is Clomid. But long term clomid use will supress the HPTA also, so its kind of a timing thing. You wouldnt want to use it for your whole cycle, as it may cause the same problems that HCG does, but by a little different means.
WHY IS CLOMID DIFFERENT?
Well, clomid causes the release of gonadtropin-a MALE hormone (ok, women use it too, but its better than using estrogen to boost testosterone)! By not using an estrogen you allow the endogenous testosterone in your system to begin signaling the HPTA to release more and more gonadtropin which in turn restores the HPTA balance. This is the road to recovery of your testosterone levels!
WHATS THE DEAL ABOUT HCG's CLINICAL USE?
It is used to cause ovulation in anovulatory women, and at one point was used to cause the testicles to descend in people who have undescended testes. Its also used in cases of hypogonadism. At one point it was used in men who were borderline on sperm production and wished to have a child. Doctors are realizing that this was a mistaken use for it, and DO prescribe Clomid for that very purpose now!
SO HOW MUCH CLOMID DO I USE?
You should start about a week or two before the point where the gear will clear your system, and continue on for at least 2 weeks past the clean point. 4 weeks would be more along the line youd need to prevent and "rebound" in the HPTA. This is an inexact science, as we are just recently understanding some of this.
ARE YOU JUST AN OPINIONATED ASSHOLE? HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Well, I worked with a fertility specialist and an endocrinologist and tracked my recovery post cycle. Using blood tests to track testosterone recovery, as well as FSH and LH levels. Along with semen analysis to track sperm count and sperm motility over a period of almost a year. That, along with extensive research have given me some rather "unique" insight...

But like I said at first, people who use it probobly still will. But knowledge is the most important tool we have available to us. At the very least this may help you reach an informed decision in what you do!
-Monster-


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tygerman

Novice

Posts: 3
From:
Registered: Aug 2000

posted September 24, 2000 12:00 AM

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Man thanks for the info now I see the light.
lol tm


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