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 Anabolic Discussion Board
 Traditional vs. "2on/4off" Cycle: A Debate!
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| Author | Topic: Traditional vs. "2on/4off" Cycle: A Debate! | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 29 |
For the sake of argument, let us say that our test subject will be using primobolan depot and winstrol (stanazolol). Now, in order to have his cake and eat it too, the object is to help our test case gain and obtain the most strength and lean muscle possible with the least amount of side effects. Having said this, there are two avenues to pursue. Dosing schedule #1 would involve a more traditional cycle of 200-400mg of primo a week and 50-100mg of winstrol every other day (eod) for a TOTAL OF EIGHT WEEKS. Dosing schedule #2 would be 1000mg of primo on day 1 (in order to get levels up and mimic the effect of having been on it already), and then 200mg on days 4, 7, and 10 with 50-100mg of winstrol ed or eod for a TOTAL OF JUST 2 WEEKS. Now, in order to make our comparison fair, we would need to do Dosing schedule #2 a total of 4 times (for a grand total of 24 weeks as opposed to 8) in order to be "ON" the juice as much as dosing schedule #1. So, the final question is this: In your opinion, which dosing schedule would allow our test subject the most strength and lean muscle mass gains while minimizing side effects and why? I really need some serious input on this as it is part of a research article I will be compiling in the not too distant future.     | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
Now come on, guys. Surely someone has an opinion on this one! | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
Please? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 161 |
Its always going to be a debate, but I personally like longer cycles and more off time, with the shorter ons and off's you really need to get a lot of blood work etc to make sure that all functions have returned to normal, and even then, who knows. My endocrinologist prefers me to stay on for 6-9 weeks and off for 8-10 weeks, and my blood work shows that is great for me. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 28 |
Wanderer, we all know your the test subject. Just ask if you want help, instead of making up all these stupid ass scenarios. ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 241 |
I would think schedule 1 would be better. ghans | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
In this scenario, I think the longer cycle would be better. Personally, I think short cycles are really only effective if stronger drugs at higher doses are used. Primo and winny ususally take a while for most people to notice, so doing them short would probably not give you enough time to see any good results. And most people who do winny and primo stacks, usually find that they keep almost all of their gains. Now if we were comparing something like test propionate or fina in long vs. short cycles, then I would have to say short would be better. You would probably gain more overall on the longer one but I think in the long runs you would retain more of your gains post cycle. Very good question though. [This message has been edited by Maverik (edited September 17, 2000).] | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
Maverik, I will play devil's advocate and say that there would be better results from several 2/4 cycles. Through my research from others I believe that the body can grow faster during 2 week spurts with adequate rest than it can on a constant basis for 8 weeks straight. Yes, because of all the off weeks in schedule #2, it would be a longer process but more effective. Let me know what you or anyone else thinks...it will only add to my research. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
Hey I am right there with you bro. I am already planning to do some 2 on/4 off cycles for at least a year straight. I think they are great in theory. The reason I said what I said is mainly because I know that when most people find when they do the milder drugs like winny and primo, they always seem to keep most if not all of their gains. I also know that people don't typically see good muscle growth from primo and winny until several weeks into the cycle. So it seems to me that when using mild drugs like primo and winny, it just wouldn't be as beneficial to cycle this way. It seems as if it would be better to do one straight cycle. But with the stronger drugs like test, fina, and dbol, I think short cycling would be much more beneficial here. You may be right but you haven't convinced me yet. I still think option 1 would yield better overall results in this case. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 1378 |
I was waiting for you to get involved on this thread Mav-LOL!!! | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
Hey Huck, what's the weather like in Timbuktu this time of year. Just curious! And before you ask, Top Gun School is going great. They just paired me up with my old buddy Goose, and we are about to go take down some Migs!! Oh, and did I mention I am screwing one of my instructors? She is a pretty hot little blonde. Man, have my grades been going up here lately! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1378 |
MWAAAAAHAHAHAH!!! | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
"I got the need...the need for speed!" | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
Just for the record, that's my girl's favorite movie and she watches it all the time, so I know it almost all by heart. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 39 |
Get to vipers office on the double! ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
LOL! | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
Boy, its amazing how the content of a topic can change! True, most people do not notice gains from primo and winny until later in a cycle, but I suspect that this is because the halflife of primo is a bit less than a week and levels are never really that high. Thus, it is a gradual process that reflects moderate, steady gains. However, by injecting a quadruple dosage of each (1000mg primo & 200 winstrol) on day 1, this gets levels up immediately and creates an environment in the body that is very conducive to growth. By adding 200mg of primo on days 4, 7, and 10 as well as 50mg eod of winstrol, the levels remain relatively high leading to a positive response in terms of growth and strength. What do you think? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 158 |
BRO, ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE THIS SOUND CONFUSING? | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 323 |
I believe primo and winny are virtually worthless for a short cycle. You need to break out the brutes for short cycles: A50, dbol, prop, suspension, fina. I consider primo and winny "gradual gainers" that work well when taken over a period of at least 6 weeks. BTW, I'm doing a short cycle right now, haven't you seen my week 1 update post? There's another update coming tonight... ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 154 |
All of the short cycle results I hear are from high dosages with little off time in between cycles. It all seems to reinforce what I have found with my body: You get the best results by being on shit. With the short cycles the juice is still in your blood when you start your next cycle = no off time. Long cycles bring more gains, with a dip in performance during the off time. My advice is to bridge and not have any off time. Is this healthy? Maybe not but it works. The idea that you are going to keep a ton of chemically gained muscle after being off for a few years seems kind of silly to me. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
Bro, you have some good ideas there but I am not sure about how well they would work. I have done much research on short cycles and rarely have I ever seen primo and winny used unless they are being stacked with another androgen like dbol. I think the whole point is to hit the receptors hard with some strong androgens and then get off quickly. Just like in warfare, "Hit 'em hard and get out quick." I think the only way we will ever know for sure is if someone like yourself tries it out first. We can theorize all day but it will get us nowhere. Good luck if you decide to try it. As for me, I will stick to good old test, dbol and fina for my short cycles. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
Besides, I can't even think of where I would put 10 cc's of oil on the first day. You would have to hit both glutes, your quads and maybe even the delts, so you probably wouldn't even be able to sleep at night. Every way you turned would be uncomfortable. I know for myself, primo is a very painful injection. After shotting 2 cc's in the glute I really want to just stop and forget about that other cc left in the syringe. Usually the day after a primo shot in the glute, I can't even sit on the side I shot. So both glutes and both quads and maybe even delts? Sorry bro but you couldn't pay me enough to do all that. Well, maybe if I was paid, but I wouldn't do it of my own free will. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 133 |
I DIDNT NOTICE ANY GAINS FROM WINNY UNTIL WEEKS 4 AND 5 SO A 2 WEEK CYCLE WOULD BE RATHER USELESS... AND PRIMO DIDNT KICK UNTIL WEEK 3 SO WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE THESE 2 FOR THIS SHORT CYCLE?? | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 371 |
Mav you might want to check on that primo it really souldnt hurt. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
Consultant, I know for sure that my gear is real. They are the clear ones with the green writing from Schering. There is a pic on anabolix that looks exactly like mine. I have seen many pics on the net that match up exactly. From what I have picked up about this, for some people the primo hurts like hell and for others it doesn't hurt bad at all. I have seen many posts concerning this. About half of primo users say it hurts and the other half don't. You must be on the other half. BTW, I have shot sust and deca and neither one of those ever hurt. But the primo feels like I am shooting tabasco sauce in my glute. If I keep it under two cc's per shot it only hurts for a day or so but if I shoot 3 cc's at one injection it hurts all damn week. [This message has been edited by Maverik (edited September 18, 2000).] | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
And gearseeker, you need to head over to mesomorphosis.com and do a searh on short cycles. Bridging is not a good idea because you are messing with your hormones even worse. Sure it works but it is not very healthy. Use off time for what it is intended to be...off time. Some people use something that doesn't interfere with test production much like primo but I wouldn't even do that. And the whole point of short cycles is to use fast acting drugs for 2 weeks straight and then give you body 3 or 4 weeks off to readjust. Keeping the cycle at 2 weeks keeeps your body from shutting dowm natural test production. Man, I feel like a broken record with this short cycle shit lately... Man, I feel like a broken record with this short cycle shit lately... Man, I feel like a broken record with this short cycle shit lately... Man, I feel like a broken record with this short cycle shit lately... !!! [This message has been edited by Maverik (edited September 18, 2000).] | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 715 |
I am planning my next cycle and confused as hell... One side wants to try the short cycles but the other says to stick to conventional... I don't know if I have the guts to try it... I might try it injecting 1500mg of sust on day 1 and taking 50mg of dbol per day for 14 days... I'll keep you posted | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
One of the reasons people say that, Drexx, is because there is not alot of people who have tried them so people seem to THINK they don't work. Give it a try and see if you can prove those guys wrong. That's what I plan to do. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
Maverik it is clearly obvious that you are well versed in the 2/4 cycle theory. I am glad that you have been sharing your input on this post. Now, I agree with you in that injecting all that oil would be the biggest drawback. As far as your experiences with primo go, have you been injecting slow, like to the tune of 30 seconds per 1cc (I am assuming that you are)? As I said before, the reasons for supporting protocol #2 are as follows: (1)the body is more responsive to growth in 2 week spurts than 8 straight weeks (2)by doing a quadruple dose of primo (1000mg) and winstrol (200mg) on day 1, receptors are immediately hit hard which fosters a great environment for strength and growth. You see, most have been arguing that they have not seen results from primo or winny until 4-5 weeks into the cycle, and I believe the reason for this is that levels never really get that high. At least not as high as the day 1 scheme described above. and (3)Androgen levels have been high for only 2 weeks, which causes the pituitary gland to produce more LH in response to the same signal than it would under "normal" conditions, resulting in fast recovery and normal test. production. I would like someone to respond to these three points and tell me what you think of them, IN THEORY! Like Mav said earlier, it is all just theory anyway. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
Yeah I understand all of your reasoning here. I have seen many theories on short cycles. I have been researching them more here lately because I am planning on doing the short cycles for a year straight. I have also seen many experts like Bill Roberts state that when using primo start out at no less than 800 mg. So I do understand your reasoning here and I am sure it would work pretty good, but I am still not sure that it would be more effective than one long cycle. But no one has ever done a comparison. so why don't you be the guinea pig and try it out bro. Good Luck! | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 314 |
thats it...i'm too curious about this, i'm gonna try it. i've been reading the steroid parts of T-mag and short cycles seems to be the consensus favorite over there. i'm gonna do something like 400-500mg deca and 200mg of winny for 2 weeks. and if it doesnt work i can start a real cycle shortly thereafter. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
d1734: Deca is not the best choice when considering a 2on/4off cycle because you cannot get the levels high enough in the 2 "on" weeks for fast gains without being inhibitory in week 3. When trying the short cycle it is imperative that you select those steroids that have shorter half lives that allow you to have higher levels during the "on" weeks. Now, the winstrol is an excellent choice, and I am not saying that the plan you have selected will not work. However, in THEORY, because of the aforementioned properties of Deca, it might be wiser to construct your arsenal using acetates, test. propionate, test. suspension, trenbolone acetate, primobolan, and winstrol. Hope this helps. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 283 |
Wanderer is right. You can use deca but if you want to get really good results you need to stick to the fast acting drugs. I am going to stick to fina, dbol, and test prop. These are all very good choices for short cycles. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 314 |
i really really wanna stay away from any strong androgen...it will wreak havoc on my system. i could try primo but that costs alot. sure winny does too but i am getting the powder so i can afford it. would it work to inject the deca, and then officially begin the cycle when the deca actually kicks in and not at the time of injection? it would be more complicated but i could try to time it so the deca isnt active much more than 2 weeks. exactly how long is deca active anyway? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 57 |
I finished a 12 day cycle of tren,4 pellets twice/day with liquid dmso doing whole inner leg,left then right,each day.No skin problems with component TH/dmso. From day one I felt strong and tore up the iron. By day five I was setting records in everything. Day 7 to nine was a crazy repeat. By day 10 I was feeling joint stressed and decided to not lift anymore. Day 11 and 12 I continued to eat like a pig.I didn't lift cause I wanted 2 days of recovery with tren.At this point I was up 10 lbs. Day 13 no tren,feel O.K.Glad not to need to eat so much. Day 14,feel weak,old,despondant.Down 3 lbs. Day 15,feel better.By 17 I am down 5 lbs but I have forgotten I am depressed and it all seems worthwhile. Now it's almost 2 weeks post cycle and I feel great.I'm dieting and have lost more weight(good).The muscle and strength are still there. Day one dips 25lbs.x9 12 days after cycle 60lbs.x12 Other lifts have improved also and my belly is down 1/2". So hell yeah,short cycles work,at least with tren.I'm new to A.S. so that's also a big factor. What I like most is getting my natural T back fast.I hate being depressed. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 314 |
doin more research and got some Q's. Bill Roberts says that Nandrolone Decanoate is active in the body for approx. 17 days. he also recommends 50mg winny a day to stop the progestrogenic sides, so i'm gonna up the dose to that. anyway would it work to inject about 800-900mg deca on day 1? if it lasts 17 days that would be equiv. of about 400mg week. its also kinda funny how everything i read seems to say how great deca and winny go together, i pretty much pulled that combo out of my ass based on what was available to me and my sensitivity. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
d1734: I can only give you my opinion, which has been formulated based on what I have learned about deca and its properties. Since its effects will be carrying over into the third week it is not the BEST choice for a 2/4 cycle. So, basically what I am saying is that given your choice of deca and winstrol (which will react exactly as you have described, in that it complements the deca) it would be more effective to use a traditional 8 week cycle. It all boils down to this: in theory, deca does not work well in a short cycle but is proven to work in a longer cycle. Do you want to take a chance and try to disprove this theory or do you want to go with a sure thing? If you do decide to go with a 2/4 cycle, please keep us posted via the board or email me and let me know how it went. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 715 |
Good point about the longer acting drugs... I know sust is active for 23 days but it tapers... I will still use that because I have only Susts and Enanthate at home... I will probably only take 500mg of both sust and enant (total 1000mg) on day 1 and the dbol every day at 50mg... Should I take more test??? 1500mg on the first day.... I know prop would be better but the sust is there and paid for... | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 29 |
How many cycles have you done in the past? The farther you are away from your "natural" limits, the more test/sust. you will need. Personally, I would go with 750mg of just sustanon on day 1, along with the dbol. Of course, it would probably be smart to use clomid at the conclusion of the 2 "on" weeks. At the most I would do 1000mg on day 1. I think anything above this is overkill. But you are right, the prop. would be a better choice. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 21 |
This is what I am doing. I will now be a "test" dummy. LOL. I am going to take 250mg of russian Sust. Every other day for 1 week. Then I will stop for 4 days and continue the sust at 250mg of sust every 2 days. If it will work or not Time will tell. I am here for any suggestions. But keep in mind I "will" be doing this. I'll post an everyday journal here for all to see. Including workouts and cardio. Also after this so called "short cycle" I will post my report and research on the subject. ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 618 |
For me it's always been long and hard with whatever the market allows (as well as my wallet). get big or get out |
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posted September 16, 2000 03:12 PM