GEORGE SPELLWIN'S ANNOUNCEMENTS
Enlightening Men about Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding for over Two Decades
|
 Elite Fitness Bodybuilding, Anabolics, Diet, Life Extension, Wellness, Supplements, and Training Boards
 Anabolic Discussion Board
 Good Reading: Simple perspective on Creatine and how it works.
|
| Author | Topic: Good Reading: Simple perspective on Creatine and how it works. | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 932 |
Hey fellas, maybe some of you will find this process as interesting as I do. As you may or may not know I am my gym's official weekend man. Due to my academic schedual, I dont have alot of free time to continue my personal training or weekday employment like I normally would during the summer. So, I relegate myself to weekend gym position for gas and food money. Normally, gyms arn't a hotbed of activity in my area on the weekends, college football and all. This leaves me with alot of time to do some reading or engauging in discussions. Instead of reading reading "Sidereus Nuncius" for my philosophy of science class, fucking horrible, I got a couple articles on creatine and how it works within the human body. The most abundant form creatine sold is of course monohydrate. The most abundant techincal term associated with creatine use is what,.... right ATP? What the hell is ATP, simply put "Adenosine Triphosphate" is fuel for muscular contractions. The presence of ATP at the cellular level within the muscles is what allows us to engauge in this physiological process known as weight training. During resistance training ATP stores are being metabolized into Adenosine Diphosphate, (ADP). The source for the energy needed to enguage in strenuous resistance training comes from this very literal conversion. Now, heres where your exogenous creatine comes into play. Creatine monohydrate is now administered by the user in super physiological quantity. This expgenous supplementation refuels and restores intracellular ADP to its origonal structure, which inturn replaces ATP concentrations, which inturn allows the entire process to begin anew. Cool, huh Now, obviously our only source of creatine is not limited to Twin Lab or World Wide nutrition. An abundant amount of creatine is found within the red meats we consume and certain green vegtables. Now, commenses my discussion with a client at the gym. Neither he nor I can deny how creatine works. We acknowledge its importance within the spectrum of athletic training. However, how much is really needed to support the physiological biological function enumerated above, and how much is just superfluous waste material,...hmmm. I personally, have administered creatine in the second geNration principal advocated by current sports science. No loading phase, a static 10-20mg daily doses for 30 days followed by a 30 day respit. What I experienced was no added energy for explosive movements, and no intracellular water retention. As a matter of fact I experienced an alarming amount of sub-q water retention. Now, for my advesaries creatine experience. He is an asian man who completely abstaines from the consumption of red meats. His primary source of protein is from vegtables, legumes, and ocassionally fish. Im uncertain as to the concentration of Creatine within white meat, but I have been told its margional. He too, began creatine supplementation and modeled it after mine. After 20 days, both he and I could visably persieve an increase in muscular endurance, but no visiable increase in intramusuclar water retention. Now, my postulation has always been that RED MEAT eaters need not invest a dime in exogenous creatine, because we already get enough from the whole foods we consume. Vegetarians or those who abstain from a diet in red meat will obviously experience the needed benefits of increased creatine stores at the cellular level. Correlation need not equal cuasation, but this has been my predominat observation, I stumbled upon a couple of articles in US News and World Reports and popular mechanics by members of the scientific community who were not representing the major sports supplement coorporations, they supported my affirmation. After explaining this point to this obstinant hard headed client, he begain to reflect on his diet and experiences with red meat. He says "Danny", btw thats my name, you know you might be right, my doctor adviced me to cut red meat because my ldl levels were to high, thats when I began the creatine, and that was the first time I experienced the positive side effects". Bingo, I responded. What do you fellas think? ------------------      | ||
|
Moderator 
Posts: 3918 |
From my own personal experience i have to disagree. Now you have to take into account many different things, the quality of the creatine, how it was administered etc etc.. Personally when i'm taking creating i take the pure monohydrate, i use the Pro Performance creating from GNC, i know i know, it's not the cheapest but i get incredible results off it. Now i take my creatine four times a day at 5gms each time so 20gms a day min, taken with a 50/50 mix of pure grape juice and grapefruit juice on an empty stomach. I typically will stay on creatine for the two or three months between cycles. Now i eat a lot of red meat and have still seen great improvments in my ability to completly contract a muscle as well i've seen some incredible strength gains. I love the stuff. | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 932 |
Is it possible for you, without equivication to render that opinion given our athletic condition and involvment with androgens. Heck, do we even have that luxury to say one way or the other. In addition to the fundamental increase of protein synthesis, a raise in androgen level should also enhanced the production of creatine phosphate within the body, "CP". These observations along with the articles I have written weren't conducted within the bodies of people like us. Ya, gotta take that into consideration and examine the feasability of your opinon. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited September 10, 2000).] | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 367 |
The first time I used creatine I blew up like a baloon, and have been disappointed ever since. Then I figured out that I'm fifty pounds heavier than when I first started, so I tried it again using more(this week actually) and I'm up to 230lbs. from 222. But I feel a little wierd, not to sure I like the stuff to be honest. later oh, great post TS, very informative | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1161 |
Hopefully I'm not going to sound stupid here.So in essence T.S.,are you hypothesizing that maybe there's a down-regulation process(much like our receptors to A/S)that may render creatine ineffective in those athletes who regularly consume red meat/green vegatables,making it so that we don't respond favorably?Hopefully I'm understanding you correctly.If so,that is an interesting theory. | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 932 |
Yes and no, Im of the contention that those of us who consume red meat in the quantity that we do, extract more than enough to fuel the biological processes enumerated in this post. The presence of androgens within the body serves to excacorbate this process. So it would be difficult for a successful athlete on androgens, who consumes red meat to glorify or for that matter vilify the effectivness of creatine. Its plausible to assume that any extra in the form of exogenous supplementation would just be excreted within the urine as are excessive amounts of non-essential amino acids like Glutamine or vitamins like C. The ability to even converse on issues such as these is the primary reason ill support Elite Fitness dispight any controversy it may face now or in the future. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited September 10, 2000).] | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1161 |
Gotcha.On this same subject,let me further pick your brain for a moment.What would you think about using creatine in conjunction with oxandrolone,which is known to speed up creatine synthesis?Viable,or do you think the above applies here also? [This message has been edited by HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex (edited September 10, 2000).] | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 932 |
Ok heres where my biochemical abilities begin to faulter. Oxandralone has to be the most interesting 17-A of the bunch. My uncle classifies Anavar as a mild (Hypolipidemic) sp? agent. This means anavar effects the lipid profiles within the blood. I believe he was telling me that it reduces both HDL and LDL cholesterol levels, to the point where once anavar use is eliminated hdl levels increase favorably while ldl remains low. Damn I think I read that in some freakin book or article a while back,.... shit..argh brain fart. Anyway, Cool ancilary effect, huh? But, Ill be damned if I have ever heard of Oxy stimulating creatine conversion at the cellular level. This is something Ill have to look into, or were gonna have to wait for Dezl or Macrophage to answer. ------------------ | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1161 |
Thanks as usual T.S..Hopefully Dezl or Macro can add on here,to an already highly informative thread. | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 3918 |
Ok now what i stated in my first post is not an opinion but an observation that i've seen in myself. Now, "In addition to the fundamental increase of protein synthesis, a raise in androgen level should also enhanced the production of creatine phosphate within the body, "CP"." Ok now you're interchanging creating and creatine phosphate which are not the same thing at all. Creatine must be transported within the cell before creatine phosphate is produced, now if you're assuming that a high level of androgens will increase the production of creatine phosphate (somehow) then the need for high levels of creatine increases. As if the other reactants in the equation are increased then the creatine will become the rate limiting agent. I don't know how you can assume that someone eating red meat can obtain an optimum amount of creatine. The concentrations of creatine withing red meat are very low, i can't recall exactly what they are , but they're relatively small. I think it's on the order of 1gm per lb of meat. It all comes down to a simple thing, if you take creatine properly and one sees results then obviously that individual wasn't obtaining an optimum level of creatine. I personally with my high androgen filled body have seen great results of creatine. Now we can of course conclude that i'm not receiving the optimum amount of creatine i need from my diet. Yet i eat red meat every day. Exogenous creatine is excreted of course in the form of creatinine. Now this is one of the problems with creatine, when placed in solution it quickly changed into creatinine, a molecule which is useless for donating inorganic phosphates to ADP. Now this is why the method in which the creatine is administered is so important. If left in your stomach for too long it will inevitably convert into the useless creatinine, as well if it is in the blood stream for too long it will as well convert into creatinine. This is part of the reason why most people see limited benefit to creatine, they're not taking it properly. | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 932 |
Were going to have to agree to disagree, I just want to make it clear that I was by no means intending to patronize you E2 with my responses. I say this only because I detected a subtle defensive tone to your post. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited September 10, 2000).] | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 367 |
guys, it's 5 grams of creatine per 2 pounds of meat ------------------ | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 3918 |
I never felt as though you were attacking me at all, actually i'm very glad to have you here so we can have these discussions, it's a very nice change of pace. We need more of these. | ||
|
Cool Novice 
Posts: 26 |
Great advice on both sides. Personally I have seen great results from creatine. My question is do you think that creatine will be as effective while you are on gear, or should it be saved as a post cycle boost. Or use it while you are on and off your cycle. Which time would have the most positive results. Thanks! | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 310 |
Wow... i like this discussion... HUGE BUMP! ------------------ | ||
|
Cool Novice
Posts: 48 |
I get good results off Phosfagen HP and Alpha-lipoic acid! |
All times are ET (US) | |
 |
|
|
posted September 10, 2000 06:43 PM
