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 BChemist. ? for ya.
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| Author | Topic: BChemist. ? for ya. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 536 |
In the post "Quick winny question" you claim that orals and injectables are equally toxic to the liver. My question is, can winstrol bind to the AR receptor BEFORE the 17aa group is removed by the liver? Also, forverblast had a good point that the half-life of the depot will slow the release of winstrol into the bloodstream, and therefore less drug will be hitting the liver in a given period of time, which should in theory make it somewhat less toxic. Any opinions?     | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 373 |
You caught me just as I was about to leave....but this is one of the best questions I have seen in a long time. First of all, toxic is toxic. Damage to an organ is cumulative. So if you are going to damage your liver, whether you do it immediately or over a long period of time is going to produce the same end result. Yes, if you do an injection, it will be released slower into the bloodstream. All that means is that you are not going to have the exact same effect as you would if you took it orally. But at the same time, winstrol has a relatively long half life vs. d-bol. So the difference between orals and injectibles is negligible. As far as the receptors go, that is where it gets interesting. From what I understand, the liver must remove the alkylation before the receptor can accept the molecule. Sometimes a molecule with a similar chemical structure will react with a receptor. But in this case the alkyl group must be removed. So any notion of avoiding a "first pass" via injection is incorrect by default. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 984 |
Bchemist,I gotta say I love your input.As usual,I am enlightened.Thank you sir. | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 26 |
thanks for info bc!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 306 |
BCHEMIST, first, the 17-alkyl group is never removed from the molecule, at least not from any study I have seen on metabolism of steroids. This is why aromatizable orals like Dbol have problems with gyno; the aromatase product is a 17-methylated estrogen, usually estradiol. Second, I have to disagree with your assessment of acute versus chronic toxicity. Acute damage of the liver can impair it beyond repair, yet chronic damage maybe repairable when the insult is discontinued, especially since the liver is known for amazing recuperative ability. Also, 17-AA steroids are essentially the only ones to show any significant hepatic damage. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 373 |
Hmmm....you may very well be right about the non-removal of the group. I don't have anything in front of me that will disprove it. I read somewhere that the molecule undergoes a modification at that site prior to binding. But I will disagree with the point you are trying to make about acute vs. chronic exposure. We are talking about winstrol here. Not cyclohexane. My point is that 50mg processed over a period of 2 hours vs a period of 5 hours is not going to make a significant difference. I'm sorry if I was unclear about that. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 536 |
The first pass thing is exactly what I was wondering about. So, if the winstrol can get into the bloodstream and bind to receptors before reaching the liver, then less active drug will reach the liver. Now I don't know the numbers on this. Whether 75%, 95% or 99% of the injectable drug will pass through the liver, I don't know. I've often thought about this in relation to people claiming that winstrol can cause localized growth. If the 17aa group is never cleaved and can bind to the AR without change, then perhaps the muscles in the immediate area of the injection will absorb more? From what I understand, the liver, when it breaks down a drug, releases a chemical called NADPQI. Under normal circumstances, NADPQI is metabolized and excreted from the body. But when too much of a drug is taken (i.e. more than the liver can handle) there exist more NADPQI than can be broken down and the excess is left over to do damage to liver cells. So in this sense, I think that the amount of drug that hits the liver in a given period of time will effect the damage done to the organ. As an analogy, tylenol overdoses can cause major damage to the liver because so much of the drug hits the liver in a short period of time. But taking normal doses of tylenol over an extended period of time does not cause the same damage. Therefore, at least in that case, the effects of the damage to the liver are not cumulative. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 373 |
Tylenol is also toxic to the kidneys. It kills nephrons at any dose. A good analogy to cumulative damage would be alcoholism. Now I want to go back and read about all this stuff again! I honestly hope that winstrol doesn't cause localized growth! Can you imagine how big your glutes would get... | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 306 |
BCHEMIST, heres a good study I found concerning Winstrol: J Steroid Biochem 1990 Jun;36(1-2):153-74 "Metabolism of stanozolol: identification and synthesis of urinary metabolites." Schanzer W, Opfermann G, Donike M Institut fur Biochemie, Deutsch Sporthochschule Koln, F.R.G. Urinary metabolites of stanozolol (17 alpha-methyl-17 beta-hydroxy-5 alpha-androst-2-eno(3,2-c)-pyrazole) following oral administration were isolated by chromatography on XAD-2 and by preparative high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) and identified by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC/MS) with electron impact (EI)-ionisation. Stanozolol is excreted as a conjugate but is metabolized to a large extent. All identified metabolites are hydroxylated, namely at C-3' of the pyrazole ring and at C-4 beta, C-16 alpha and C-16 beta of the steroid. Less than 5% of the metabolites are found in the unconjugated urine fraction: 3'-hydroxy-stanozolol (II) and 3'-hydroxy-17-epistanozolol (III). Conjugated excreted metabolites are 3'-hydroxystanozolol (II), stanozolol (I), 4 beta-hydroxy-stanozolol (IV), 16 beta-hydroxystanozolol (V), 16 alpha-hydroxystanozolol (VI), two isomers of 3',16-dihydroxystanozolol (VII, VIII), two isomers of 4 beta, 16-dihydroxystanozolol (IX, X) and a 3',?-dihydroxystanozolol (XI). 3'-Hydroxystanozolol, 4 alpha-hydroxystanozolol, 4 beta-hydroxystanozolol, 16 alpha-hydroxy-, 16 alpha-hydroxy-17-epi- and 16 beta-hydroxystanozolol were synthesised to confirm the structural assignment of the main metabolites. As for acetaminophen, its toxicity is due to its free-radical damage. In the metabolism of Tylenol to paracetamol, it forms a free-radical intermediate, which depletes liver glutathione levels. If one takes a toxic dose, then liver glutathione is unable to handle the load and cellular damage is caused by free-radical damage. The treatment for Tylenol toxicity is N-acetylcysteine, which increases liver glutathione levels. This is a different form of toxicity than oral steroid toxicity. The idea of Winny causing localized growth comes from the irritation caused by the crystalline depot. People who have injected Winny into biceps claim that it increases their bicep size, but the crystal depot is irritating the muscle causing a localized swelling. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 818 |
Its one thing to have an intelligent working knowledge of hormones and their safe application, its even more superlative when those persons can translate and filter through the unnecessary bullshit and arrive at a concise understandable point. In other words, I read the article, what the hell was the point in posting it? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited September 03, 2000).]  | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 984 |
LOL! | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1180 |
Thanx bros i wish i knw what you said!! I guess i need to take some classes huh?? ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 306 |
TWISTED, I am not sure if it dawned on you, but there has been this repeated topic of 17-alpha alkyl metabolism, especially concerning stanazolol, in this thread. Go back to the top and reread the posts, then you may get a fucking inkling of what is going on. This is not difficult stuff here. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 818 |
Your the man Cockdezl what can I say. Not only did that post enlighten me, but it did wonders for everyone else. Thanks buddy.  The next time some kids ask's me about alkyated steroids, Im just gonna point them straight to that article. ------------------ |
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posted September 02, 2000 01:04 PM