GEORGE SPELLWIN'S ANNOUNCEMENTS
Enlightening Men about Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding for over Two Decades
|
 Elite Fitness Bodybuilding, Anabolics, Diet, Life Extension, Wellness, Supplements, and Training Boards
 Anabolic Discussion Board
 HCG
|
| Author | Topic: HCG | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 355 |
Ok, I'll try and lay it out here, even though it probobly wont change most peoples minds. We're creatures of habit in the bodybuilding community. Even more so than "regular" people. We fear change, and subscribe to the belief that "It has always worked this way, it always will." Its human nature. But I feel the topic of HCG needs to be addressed, because there are so many misconceptions about it, going back to day one of its use. WHAT HAPPENS POST-CYCLE? When you come off a cycle, you are dealing with a situation where the testes have stopped producing testosterone becasue of the excess of it in your body. This makes the leydig cells shut down, and throws off the HPTA. The HPTA shuts down, and you go into a kind of "no testosterone production" loop. HPTA suppressed, leydig cells suppressed and the reverse. So there you are trying to get your natural testosterone production back online. At one point people used HCG...
Ok, HCG is extracted from the urine of pregnant women. Its a protien that passes from their bodies whole and intact, and needs only to be "refined". That may sound gross, but its completely sterile and suitable for injection. It causes the production of estrogen, and aids in ovulation in anovulatory women. WHY WOULD WE USE IT? Heres where the problem occurs... HCG closely resembles luetinizing hormone (LH). It is one of the hormones that is produced when the HPTA (hypothalmic axis)is healthy (the other is follicle stimulating hormone, or FSH). This would stimulate the leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone. SO WHATS THE PROBELM? The cause for the influx of testosterone is not just HCG's resemblance to LH, its a simple matter of the body striking a balance. The HCG causes an estrogen increase, and the body attempts to strike equilibreum by increasing testosterone (the reverse happens when you use exogenous test, which is why anti-e's are often needed off cycle). So your natural testosterone is stimulated via the leydig cells to bring a balance. So whats the problem with that? Seems like "mission accomplished"? HOW DID IT ALL GET STARTED? Well, it has its uses. If you do not come off, and just bridge between cycles, you may need to use it for reasons having to do with supressed sex drive, or if testicular atrophy has become a bother (read: embarassing). I think that this is the whole reason for it gaining popularity. Pros (who most often bridge) use it, so people who DONT bridge thought it was "the thing". SO WHAT DO I DO? The only option is Clomid. But long term clomid use will supress the HPTA also, so its kind of a timing thing. You wouldnt want to use it for your whole cycle, as it may cause the same problems that HCG does, but by a little different means. WHY IS CLOMID DIFFERENT? Well, clomid causes the release of gonadtropin-a MALE hormone (ok, women use it too, but its better than using estrogen to boost testosterone)! By not using an estrogen you allow the endogenous testosterone in your system to begin signaling the HPTA to release more and more gonadtropin which in turn restores the HPTA balance. This is the road to recovery of your testosterone levels! WHATS THE DEAL ABOUT HCG's CLINICAL USE? It is used to cause ovulation in anovulatory women, and at one point was used to cause the testicles to descend in people who have undescended testes. Its also used in cases of hypogonadism. At one point it was used in men who were borderline on sperm production and wished to have a child. Doctors are realizing that this was a mistaken use for it, and DO prescribe Clomid for that very purpose now! SO HOW MUCH CLOMID DO I USE? You should start about a week or two before the point where the gear will clear your system, and continue on for at least 2 weeks past the clean point. 4 weeks would be more along the line youd need to prevent and "rebound" in the HPTA. This is an inexact science, as we are just recently understanding some of this. ARE YOU JUST AN OPINIONATED ASSHOLE? HOW DO YOU KNOW? Well, I worked with a fertility specialist and an endocrinologist and tracked my recovery post cycle. Using blood tests to track testosterone recovery, as well as FSH and LH levels. Along with semen analysis to track sperm count and sperm motility over a period of almost a year. That, along with extensive research have given me some rather "unique" insight...
-Monster-     | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 179 |
It's posts like that that keep me checkin' this board every day! Thanks, Monster, for all that, seriously! What do you think about nolvadex if you suspect gyno during/after a cycle?? ------------------  | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 387 |
kick ass post bro! | ||
|
Novice 
Posts: 4 |
THANK You for this post. Kind of what really makes the difference ! ------------------ | ||
|
Cool Novice 
Posts: 11 |
Awsome info Bro...Thanks ------------------ | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 322 |
I always thought that you knew your shit...this just confirms it. I have been questioning the whole idea of clomid EOD for awhile now. I was going to start clomid with my current bulking cycle starting next week. I can't say how happy I am with the timing of this article. I am a firm believer in the bodies ablility to downgrade to a compound. If you were taking clomid EOD throughout the cycle, I hardly see how it would be truly effective post cycle. I was thinking that since my cycle was roughly 10 weeks long, I would take clomid during week 5 and 6, 1 ED and 2 ED respectively. This would be following the d-bol phase. About 6 weeks later I was thinking of doing the same thing. But by taking what you've said into consideration, I would go with 1 ED, 2 ED, 2 ED for another three weeks, respectively. | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 113 |
Thank You Monster! | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 355 |
I live to serve! Im on my way to work right now, but I'll be back to rant a little more later... | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 573 |
I finished a cycle and had my blood work done at a wellness center. A doctor perscribed me 2500i.u. EOD for a month after a week and a half of completing cycle. After two weeks of HCG her had me take 100mg. of clomid a day with 20mg of Tamoxifen (anti-est.) This too is a month supply. I think the key ingredient is blood work. That way you know what you should have and when. | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 52 |
"Opinionated asshole?" I was thinking more along the lines of PHD! Killer article. Thanks. | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 492 |
Monster, I think you are opinionated(in a positive sense). Nobody thinks you're an asshole. Since medicine is 80% theory if you have no opinion there's not much left. A lot of what you wrote should be posted here permanantly. But some of this is anecdotal and some of it does not lend itself to helping anyone make an "informed" decision. That's my opinion... I could be wrong. | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 122 |
Monster, great post! | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 567 |
This is a keeper... I printed this out for future reference. HCG is something I'm still learning about. | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 355 |
Ulter: Try, some is anecdotal. But it is based on the experiances of quite a few people. Science is more anacdotal than anything else. A PhD is a doctor of "philosophy", so basically they are doing the same thing. I just feel its something people need to consider... all of the facts I put out are backed up by the PDR and Mereck manuals. As well as my own experience in endocrinology and more specifically the feriltiy field. If I remeber right, your an HCG user, and like I said, people get used to using something, and its hard to accept any other way. Thats not a flame in the least! Its human nature, and it prevalent among bodybuilders. If any of you are old enough to remeber when Boron first came out, it was the big thing! When it finally started to be exposed as useless, we still kept taking it for quite awhile. None of us wanted to risk missing out if it did work. Even from a laymans point of veiw, injecting a female hormone into a testosterone rich environment is kind of fishy sounding. Some people swear by it, and will continue to. I'll stick with clomid, personally. The benefits are the same, but the riska arent... | ||
|
Moderator 
Posts: 3767 |
Monster the more you post the more i realize that we're of the same mind about anabolics, glad to have you around!! ------------------ | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 492 |
OK My grammar needs work and your spelling needs work. On the same word BTW. I don't do my own research I pay a specialist a lot of money to do it for me. I read the PDR about this last night and it does not match "everything" you're saying. I am an advocate of HCG for testicular atrophy. I'm also an advocate of Clomid if your natural test doesn't move up after a cycle. But I am not a user, I have used neither product in the 17 years I've been doing this. I know you are much more knowledgeable than I am about matters of AS and chemistry. What I post I post because I have discussed it with my doctor who has 30 years of experience in this field. If my doctor is wrong then there are several hundred athletes in California that are being led astray. It wouldn�t be the first time. But I gotta go with him. I am glad to have taken part in this discussion with you I have enjoyed it immensely. | ||
|
Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 744 |
I know when bumping this, i get one more score (which i am not after). Still i have to bump. By the way i will never use Pregnyl, since you get some fat of it and no thanks for that. Great post Monster. ------------------ Don't look back, life is too short | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 355 |
Heh heh, yeah, I get typing so fast that I misspell a lot of stuff. Sometimes its just my mind working faster than my fingers. As far as testicular atrophy goes, HCG is the thing... BUT... it still keeps the HPTA in a kind of negative loop, so its self defeating as far as testosterone levels go. In that respect you end up using it for "cosmetic" reasons (i.e. to have your testicles appear their normal size). Ulter: I just though I remembered you saying you use HCG on some other thread... guess not  No offense!Doctors- Actually, the doctors with all those years of experiance are sometimes the worst. Theyre the ones stuck in the old ways of thinking, not that he's leading anyone down the path to self-destruction, its a matter of more efficient ways to do things. Doctors are just regular people like you and me, subject to prejudices and misconceptions like anyone else. They may believe that the tried and true ways are the best and not be open to new and different ideas. So basically, Im not saying its "wrong" to use HCG per se, just that theres a better (safer) way... On a side note, when you get to the pro ranks it gets even worse. You hear that such and such is chewing goat penis while he works out to get a better pump, and before you know it everyone is chewing goat penis... nobody bothers to see if its true or if it even hads a shred of usefulness. Everybody worries that someone will get an edge over them. It never ceases to amaze me that so many peole discredit hard work and balls to the wall training in favor of some secret "technique" that the person must be using. Ive seen guys sit at the gym looking from the corner of their eye... analyzing every move another guy makes trying to see what his secret. "Hey, he farted at the bottom of that squat! Thats why his quads are so freaky!" Next thing you know, baked beans are a pre-workout supplement.
Monster (under 500 posts, and proud!) | ||
|
Moderator
Posts: 1227 |
Excellent thread. Not sure why I did it, but I'm just ending my current cycle with two weeks of clomid before and going to continue three weeks after. I was thinking, if clomid can only recover test to normal production (which is why clomid only cycles are bogus) then WHY am I taking it eod throughout my cycle. Also me being a cheap ass penny pincher MAY have had something to do with it. So anyway, I've got an appointment next week (one week before my last week of clomid) to get some blood work. ------------------ Lobo | ||
|
Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 134 |
its posts like monster is why elitefitness discussion board is the reason i love this site !! please bro's more of this quality posts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------ | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 492 |
I have seen the phenomenon you are referring to occur right on this board over the last 4 months. In the beginning every cycle post I read (except Twisted Steel�s) including some by very knowledgeable MODS put..."Clomid EOD" throughout or for the last 4 weeks of every cycle they recommended. NOW all of a sudden I see lots of people backpedaling on the Clomid use during a cycle and listing it as a �post� cycle necessity. A few informed posts by members such as yourself and the whole board starts changing. It�s a shame you only have 351 posts when you have so much to share. That�s from the heart it is not patronization. | ||
|
Cool Novice
Posts: 14 |
Good post... | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 567 |
Where can I get some goat penis? (j/k) I guess some of this goes to personal preference, and some to old habits. I guess I'll avoid HCG for now and stick with Clomid. I also want to avoid any more needle sticks than necessary. But, I think I'll use a low dose of Clomid throughout the cycle, then spike it at the end. Hopefully, my testicles won't disappear from radar. | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 355 |
I dont know if the low posts are just due to laziness or what? I read the board every day, but dont post unless the topic strikes me the right way, or I feel I have something to add. I seldom respond to a post to say what someone else already said, and dont really bump anything... sure Im a little jealous and would like to have "freak" next to my name, but getting that many posts seems like a lot of work If I can help, I always do, here and at the gym. I love seeing the new people come in and really try! Not just come in and fuck off and waste time... you can see when someone really has the fire in them and trys to hit it but cant because they just dont know how. I always try to help out. Im kind of intimidating, so nobody ever comes up and asks me anything (I either train alone, or with my wife. Unless someone has specifically asked me to train with them that day). Im real easy going, so Im always ready to share a laugh or encourage someone. In some ways Id say I just never forgot where I came from. I remember being 165lbs and unsure, I remeber being 180 and 200lbs and not knowing how to take it to the next level, so I like to keep it real with everyone. Im very social, as you may be able to tell from how off topic Ive allowed this response to meander... As for everyone switching to clomid just at the end... life is a learning experiance. If people try it just at the end, they will probobly be happy with how well it turns out. But in either case, theyll have taken a step toward opening their mind to new ideas. | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 387 |
so monster you just leave the nuts shrunk during the cycle? | ||
|
Novice
Posts: 2 |
quote: One reason to take it during the cycle is that it is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. It is antiestrogenic in breast tissue, fat tissue, the hypothalamus and the pituitary. but is estrogenic and has a favorable effect on blood lipid profile. So it is useful as an antigyno drug. I agree that it is impossible to maintain LH production with high doses of androgens in your system. Remember that clomid has a long half life so that it if, for example, you are going to take 50 mg a day, take 300 mg the first day so you start at the theraputic dose from the first day. Otherwise it takes about five days to build up to the theraputic dose. You should start to take clomid at the time that androgen levels are nearing normal in your body. Keep in mind the life of the androgens you are taking. ie start clomid two weeks after last injection of long lasting steroid esters. Clomid has been studied and found safe for periods of at least a year. | ||
|
Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 355 |
I dont think clomid is really that useful as an anti estrogen drug. With the amount of androgens in your system the relativly mild antiestrogen effects of clomid are kind of pointless. Clomid still works like a competetive blocker, and even stronger competetive blockers like Nolvadex arent altogether that great (but if you cant get Armidex, its the next best thing). As for the long term effects of clomid, no one debated the safety of it. It was more a debate over using it through the whole cycle and its negative effect on the HPTA. The way you (ontariowrestler) are saying to take it is exactly the way Im advocating. Build up a doseage of it right before the last ester deesterifies and ride it out for at least a few weeks to try and normalize testosterone levels. The HPTA is something that must self-correct. That was my point regarding HCG... it does nothing to correct the HPTA and in fact sets back the testosterone normalization by continuing the bombardment of exogenous hormones. When they cease, youre right back where you started from when your androgens fled your system... Diver: I dont know if Im some sort of genetic, hormonal misfit, but I never experiance anything other than the most mild of atrophy! I also dont cycle really long (8-10 weeks usually), so by the time the atrophy really kicks in Im ending the cycle and starting clomid. Im not prone to estrogen problems, either, and have never used anti-e's (and I dont have boobies! |
All times are ET (US) | |
 |
|
|
posted August 24, 2000 09:47 PM