posted August 01, 2000 11:46 AM            

I will be on 1gram of Sus250 a week.
and Probably 400-500mg of Deca.

What is your call on whether or not to use the proscar to help out with any potential hair loss. I am thinking that blocking the test (bc it is at sucha higher mg than the deca) from the scalp would be worth it. Any ideas?

posted August 01, 2000 11:56 AM            

I'll have to bump it for ya, since I don't have a good answer. I'm still trying to figure out that first response. WTF?

posted August 01, 2000 11:31 PM            

I hate the fact that I already lost 40% of the hair on the top of my head. And am still shedding.

I will bump up the propecia to two tabs a day until I can get proscar.

posted August 02, 2000 02:32 AM            

In a nutshell Alpha 5 Reductase inhibitors are useless with anything other than Testosterones. Not to get too biochemical here, but if you use anything other than Test and combine it with Azelaic Acid or Finasteride/Propecia you are at serious risk of "potentiating" your hair loss situation.

Of course none of this is a problem if you aren't pre-disposed to this condition already.(genetics are a mean lot sometimes)

If you want to take AAS(stacking multiple drugs)the only"fullproof" way of preventing hair loss is to completely block the androgen receptors in the scalp.(Sadly no one with pre-disposed genetic hair loss can prevent nature from running its course..but one may slow it down or delay it with "science")

What blocks androgen receptors in the scalp?

You have to have a drug that can be applied topically and most importantly has few systemic side effects. There are two.

1)Spirolactone
2)Flutamide

Spirolactone is the weaker drug of the two, but the one most cost-effective and readily available. It can be purchased from Dr. Lee at minoxidil.com. A bit of warning. This stuff smells awful and is not stable in solution. And don't even think of combining it in the same bottle as Minoxidil-- unless you want to pass out and gag at the same time. It needs to be housed in its own container.

Flutamide is easily the best and most effective topical androgen receptor blocker. For years it was used as an oral prostate cancer medicine. The best part of this stuff is that it can be combined with a minoxidil solution for easy topical application.

The negative is that a one month supply of this stuff is super expensive. In Mexico it is 200 bucks or so for a 30 day supply(used correctly)It usually comes in 250mg tablets which need to be crushed into a fine powder.(each pill is usually about 3-4 bucks per)

As I said before the problem with Androgen receptor blockers is that in order to prevent "nature from running its course" you would need to stay on them permanently. Once you come off the blockers, your hair will continue its predestined course. Sadly.

Ahhh...What to do? There may be a solution.

The newest hair loss/hair restoration wonder drugs are immunosuppresants. They show great promise and "seem" to be the future of fighting the war on hair loss and prevention of MPB.(Androgenic Alopecia)

Immunosuppresant drugs are mainly used for organ transplantation in order to help the body/host from rejecting the organs recently transplanted. These drugs work in a completely different way from hormonal manipulation(androgen receptor blocking)or potassium k channel openers(minoxidil).

There are a number of oral immunosuppresants and the one most studied is cyclosporin. The most common side effect is "hypertrichosis".(for you chemists/biology majors this is the wolfman gene found in a select mexican family)which is a sudden regrowth of hair.

Problem is that it has too high a molecular weight(along with the rest of the orals)for topical absorption. Only one works topically and for the purpose of hair restoration without systemic side effects. Tacrolimus.

Currently(this will change very soon domestically)www.communitydrug.com is the only place which carries this drug for topical application. A prescription must be provided.(talk to Dr. Lee at minoxidil.com)

For myself(recently, as I have been on it for 3 weeks)and others I have spoken with who have used it for longer durations, it is a Miracle Drug. Most who have used say that it can grow back most if not close to all of the hair you have lost from AAS usage.

Will it be a permanent cure? Most likely not but it may come close. Currently it is suggested that you use this stuff 1ml EOD.(It comes in a dropper bottle and is 130 bucks for 30mls...2 month supply..so less expensive than Flutamide and more effective according to many)

posted August 02, 2000 02:55 PM            

I agree that the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors are only effective for hairloss in that they prevent the conversion of testosterone into the more deleterious DHT. But I think people will be misguided when you say that by taking propecia/azelaic acid with anything other than test that you are at serious risk of potentiating your hairloss situation. I can see that it would not help with drugs such as primo, winstrol, etc. but how do you know you would be at greater risk for hairloss if you took 5A inhibitors with them. Is there a dihydromethenolone or a dihydrostanozol that is less potent to the androgen receptor than the parent compounds? I have never run across these metabolites in any literature. If you are privy to information that I am not, please drop me a line to discuss it. Furthermore, as most of us stack steroids, often with test as a base, I would most certainly include one or both of these inhibitors when on a cycle high in test as long as deca is not part of the stack.

Now as far as tacro goes, I see it as more of a regrowth treatment than preventative medicine. Personally, I would not rely on tacro to keep my hairloss to a minimum during a heavy androgen cycle. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the drug (other than its cost). I have been using it for about 2 months now and have not noticed significant hair regrowth although I don't believe that 2 months is not long enough to see its efficacy. If you have also been using it, you will know that the 1ml dose doesn't seem to go too far. If it wasn't for the cost, I would probably do 1ml/day or double the dosage. I have also heard of great results with the drug (and I am hoping for the best), but realize that some of these results came from people who crushed the oral form of the drug into a minoxidil solution (I'm not sure what the strength ended up being)and applying it topically.

I will try and sum up my points as follows.

If you are predisposed to hairloss but can't stay away from gear:

1. Do not stack testosterones with nandrolones (deca).
2. It is O.K. to use 5-alpha reductase inhibitors in a stack with test and most other steroids.
3. Use androgen blockers (flutamide or spironolactone) in all cycles.
4. Practice preventative medicine by following 1,2 and 3.
5. Use tacrolimus if you are losing or have already lost hair.

posted August 02, 2000 07:34 PM            

I'm sorry if I mislead others by a poor choice of words. Basically you summed it up by saying that "total androgen blockers"(Flutamide and Spirolactone)are the only true answer while "on" with any AAS in relation to preventing further hair loss.(Althought the jury is still out on Tacrolimus...many questions unanswered)

And no, in relation to your question about metabolites not being privy to. As you know, DHN is less androgenic than nandrolone itself and resultingly less likely to cause hair loss than nandrolone. Obviously you would/could not use an A5R inhibitor while combining Deca and Test because it would stop/prevent the conversion of DHN(from Nandrolone)basically "potentiating" the Deca and making it just as bad as the Test into converting into DHT.

So in "theory" if a person was using a heavy base of test along with other AAS in lesser dosages he could "get away" with using an A5R inhibitor to mimimize the conversion of DHT from the Test itself. But I still see a slight risk there. Ohh...the pain of hair loss.

I agree 100% with 4 out of 5 of your points. I waver a bit on two.(can't really be sure)

BTW...

How do you feel about spirolactone? Do you compare it to flutamide in effectivenes? In your opinion what is the better buy between the two?

Also I can't use heavier androgens because there is too much personal risk for me.(sides and weight gain) I do very well on anabolics(Deca and EQ mostly)

I am thinking about incorporating Winny and Primo Depot along with Deca and EQ in a stack this winter. How are they in relation to hair loss in your personal opinion? I have a pretty thick head of hair right now with no recession. My hair loss potential is more crown of the scalp area.

I have only been using Tac for 3 weeks now. I 'think' it is already working. No way to accurately measure though.

posted August 02, 2000 07:53 PM            

Cycle: 1gram TEST/500mg Deca/winny/dbol

I will use proscar and 2% topical Spironolactone (or flutamide??).

The proscar will NOT add to the hairloss due to the deca, because the test is so high and it would be better to block the test caused dht and use the proscar then leave out the proscar (because of the deca).

Is that right?

posted August 02, 2000 08:48 PM            

But there is no guarantee that the A5R inhibitor won't make the Deca compete at the receptor with the DHT converted from the Test.

In other words, there is no reason whatsoever to use Proscar if you have Flutamide/Spirolactone to quash all androgen receptors.

My routine would be to use one of these two(preferably flutamide)for the entire length of the cycle.(I also always use Nizoral for superstitious purposes..;-) Keep using them until you feel the AAS are out of your system.

Then use Tacrolimus/Minoxidil for regrowth if needed.

posted August 02, 2000 09:43 PM            

You are determined to violate point number 1 aren't you...hehehe. I don't have a solid answer for you other than to use lots of anti-androgens. I cannot tell you whether or not the 5AR inhibitors will be helpful or harmful to your hair because too many factors come into play.

"The proscar will NOT add to the hairloss due to the deca, because the test is so high and it would be better to block the test caused dht and use the proscar then leave out the proscar (because of the deca)."

I agree that your test levels are high at 1 gram a week. But what will your DHT levels be like? What percentage of the test will be converted to DHT? If the number is less than 50%, then you would have less than 500mg of DHT competing with 500mg of nandrolone. What are the relative binding rates for DHT versus nandrolone? The numbers could possibly be found in the research for normal test levels, but what happens with superphysiological levels that you will see on your cycle? Will all the 5AR enzyme be used up? Or will your body upregulate this enzyme in response to the increased test levels? These are just some of the uncertainties that we have to deal with and is the reason I can't give you a solid answer.

Tony,

My pattern of hairloss is almost opposite to yours (receding, thinning vertex, crown intact). However, if the hairloss is androgenetic, then I'm not sure it will make a difference.

I have experience with spironolactone but not with flutamide. As you know flutamide is more expensive and much harder to get a hold of. I would like to incorporate it in my next cycle if I can. Therefore, I can't rate the relative effectiveness first hand, but I have read that flutamide works better. I do like the cost effectivness of spironolactone, though, as it allows for a more liberal application.

Winny and primo have gotten a bad rap for hairloss in some publications such as WAR and Dan Duchaine's articles - I think mostly because they are DHT derivatives. There has also been anecdotal evidence that these drugs cause significant hairloss but who really knows what else was in the stack? I have just finished a cycle of winny and primo. I did not notice any hairloss on these drugs but it may be too early to tell. Some people seem to notice hairloss after the cycle as opposed to when on cycle, so we'll see. I used spironolactone and minoxidil throughout the cycle and also incorporated tacro. BTW, spironolactone does have an odor but I really don't find it that offensive. Almost like brilcream.

As for my point number 2 - yeah it is mostly speculative and a matter of personal opinion. But I do have a reason for that point. For example, I know that one of the metabolites of boldenone (equipoise) is testosterone. Although this study was done in dogs, it may be reasonable to assume that equipoise may increase test levels. D-bol also may increase test levels. Therefore, I 'think' that 5AR inhibitors may be of some use, albeit indirectly, with some steroids other than test. I admit that there is no conclusive evidence that this is the case.

posted August 02, 2000 10:10 PM            

I think that the problem we are dealing with is mostly a lack of information. Furthermore, I seriously doubt if we are going to get much good information in the near future. This is because no one is going to fund research into this area. After all, we shouldn't be doing these drugs anyway, right? No one is going to feel sorry for a bodybuilder who goes bald using anabolic steroids.

So, unless Bill Gates takes up bodybuilding, does a few cycles and loses his hair, we're just SOL. At least for now.

I've enjoyed this discussion boys. Unfortunately for me, if it continues, I won't be able to get back to it for a week or so as I will have no access to a computer. I'll check in for updates when I get back.

posted August 02, 2000 10:19 PM            

I have a friend who has very littile hair on his head and he ALWAYS says

posted August 02, 2000 11:14 PM            

Well said. Please keep us all informed as to what happens with your hair loss post cycle(winny and primo).

BTW...How did you do with it? Sides, Fat loss, skeletal muscle gained.

Also if you don't mind, what kind of dosages did you use?

And lastly, how do you dose with Spirolactone? 2x daily, or only before you go to bed at night?

Peace,