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 Beginners Approach to AS (Simple Thinking)
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| Author | Topic: Beginners Approach to AS (Simple Thinking) |
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Twisted_Steel Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 401) |
posted July 22, 2000 08:53 PM
   Bring on the controversy. I will gladly repeat myself. Given your a novice to anabolic supplementation and hypothetically have years to gradually improve your physique through diet/disipline/dedication in conjunction with anabolic use; I will in good conscious recommend that your first cycle be limited to the use of one product. Ten ampules of Sustanon250 injected in 5 day intervals, will not yield you disproportionate growth. You will not look like a national level NPC athlete. However, your will provide your natural base with a sound 10-20 lbs of lean body mass depending upon your genetic predisposition. Not only will you experience growth unlike any in the past you will have done so without exposing your body to any unnecessary risk or financial expense, for that matter. The fact of the matter is that a great deal of the meatheads on this board who I respect greatly have lost touch with what it was like to be a natural novice venturing into the anabolic splendor of intelligent AA/S supplementation. Keep your sights grounded, understand that an average weightlifter will not turn into the MENS OPEN WINNER OF THE NPC SOUTHERN STATES in one year thanks to a CAPTAIN INSANE'O approach to anabolic supplementation expoused by 10-15 year vets of anabolic training who frequently answer these questions. AS a side note: take into consideration that stacking is purely an issue of synergy. Certain drugs work very well complementing each others anabolic/androgenic properties. The novice should not look to stacks for his 1st-3rd cycles. The "KISS" philosophy in doubt will always work best. In effect, "Keep IT Simple Stupid". Stacking comes into play once the efficacy of a singular compound has run its course. Thats the pure and simple truth. In other words, make sure you fully explore the trail your on before you venture onward to the forks in the road. ------------------
[This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited July 22, 2000).] IP: Logged |
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juiced Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 52) |
posted July 22, 2000 09:03 PM
BUMP!! Nice Bro! IP: Logged |
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Fukkenshredded Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 97) |
posted July 22, 2000 09:20 PM
In the spirit of generating dialogue, I might counter with the idea that there is an aspect of AAS use that is ignored completely, that being the individual's thorough acquaintance with their own body. the operative word being THOROUGH. On the surface this concept seems obvious and contrite, and yet... ask any user about the relationship between mitochondria population and fat accumulation and witness the blank stare. It is commonplace for a novice user to assume that the effect depends primarily on the drug used, hence questions about dosages, compounds, injecting vs. drinking, and the like. These questions almost always appear without pertinant information about the indivual's body. Occasionally I will see a height/weight stat with a body fat%. This is interesting info, but not really the requisite knowledge utilized when answering questions about cycles and their effects. In fact, I would venture that the stats are given more to solicit information that verifies something about the person posting, rather than to assist in proposing an effective cycle. Also, the importance of identifying a goal, SPECIFICALLY, cannot be overemphasized. "Bigger" is not a goal. Nebulous concepts such as this often lead to conflicting approaches and, predictably, disappointing results. It can be said with equanimity that a steroid certainly would be more effective if there was complete receptor cell activation, or if administered to one in a catabolic state, or administered to an organism with exagerrated muscle density, such as the deltoid hyperplasia observed in distance swimmers. Higher dosages could be avoided if knowledge were aquired about efficient delivery requirements. The novice's question should therefore be: "Through what mechanism does a particular compound work, and have I maximized the available pathways for that mechanism to be exploited prior to exposure to said compound?" Two drugs? One drug? Test? That's like asking what car to drive if you want to get further west. The concepts are only generally related. A car gets you there faster than walking, but beyond that, little can be advised without further knowledge of a destination. Remember, there is a point of diminishing returns with steroid use. Necessarily, it follows that usage time is limited. Therefore, do not waste time by absently firing the first syringe of any anabolic you obtain. Research yourself, pin down your goals, become certain of your direction before venturing forth. You will get there quicker. Hope this generates further input...nice post, Twisted. IP: Logged |
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macavoy Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 96) |
posted July 22, 2000 09:25 PM
Great post!! Many have said to just use one juice,albeit the right one,for up to your first 3-4 cycles. Stacking this and that and mixing here and there is far too costly and confusing to the avg joe who just wants to look big and bad. Unless you have the desire,$,time,etc to be a true bodybuilder trainhard,lift hard,eat well,and be smart.. Just like lifting. Do benches,squats,deadlifts,etc(power movements) to build your base strength,size. Isolation movements are for diff purposes. You think Ronnie Coleman would kill himself with all those drugs if he just wanted to look good for the girls?? Hell no!! If you use juice,use the basics and keep doses small and see what happens. You can always take more,stack if you dont grow....but you will grow with the simplest of juice.. IP: Logged |
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Twisted_Steel Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 401) |
posted July 22, 2000 09:35 PM
Fukkenshredded, great insight on your part. Im relativly uncertain as to its general aplicability. God bless the novice who tries to disifer it.  Hey newbies, skim the initial portions of the post to prevent any brain trauma the last paragraph is what you need aside from my own concise words of wisdom. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Twisted_Steel (edited July 22, 2000).] IP: Logged |
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Simon Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 25) |
posted July 22, 2000 09:36 PM
I'll Bump this, because as a novice to this AS game I am not looking for the biggest gains in the fastest time. I believe in effective "Progressive Training". Thats what we do, we tax our body over and over again to reach that level of "Progress". Progress comes thru hard work and determination. To each is own in determing this level of Progress, but nothing in a bottle is going to get you there, you have to go thru "Progressive Traing". IP: Logged |
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Fukkenshredded Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 97) |
posted July 22, 2000 10:50 PM
There is another point to consider, though. All growth after puberty is adaptive growth (except for the nose and ears, which strangely continue to grow throughout life), which is to say, a result of some environmental factor. Muscle growth is actually muscle repair + compensation, the latter being what the bodybuilder is after. And so, oddly, the thing we do to get stronger is injure ourselves in a controlled fashion. The question then becomes, how much can I damage my muscles and still expect maximum recovery and compensation? It seems then, that the body would impose its own limits, which it does. That last rep is it. To me, the implication is that all reps up until the failed rep are actually warm ups. The workout phase with benifit consists solely of the forced rep, since that is the task that is immediately beyond the body's capabilities. So then, one key factor is familiarizing yourself with limits, both perceived and actual. What impetus is there for growth if your workout consists only of that which you are capable? If steroids are implemented prior to exposure to true failure, again there is waste. And brothers, wasted steroids are a genuine tragedy. IP: Logged |
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THE APE Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 99) |
posted July 23, 2000 04:28 PM
I SAY WE SHOULD VOTE FUKKENSHREDDED TO MOD STATUS.THIS GUY KICKS ASS. IP: Logged |
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ironmaster Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 278) |
posted July 23, 2000 05:06 PM
Fukkenshredded, not a flame brother, but your second reply here is esoteric in the extreme. You have a wonderful command of language, but sometimes, esp. in a post aimed at novices, simple and straight forward is better. I understand your point, but is the science and research available really able to give us that answer with specificity? IP: Logged |
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cantgetlayed Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 131) |
posted July 23, 2000 05:08 PM
Bump for fukkenshredded, you're a real wealth of information ------------------ IP: Logged |
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ColumboWeiser Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 111) |
posted July 23, 2000 07:00 PM
great post...bump IP: Logged |
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ARISTIMUQO Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 21) |
posted July 23, 2000 07:11 PM
Nice post IP: Logged |
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ARISTIMUQO Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 21) |
posted July 23, 2000 07:12 PM
Nice post IP: Logged |
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HackN2it Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 18) |
posted July 23, 2000 07:22 PM
Excellent post!!! Hack IP: Logged |
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Steriod_Virgin Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 309) |
posted July 23, 2000 07:38 PM
Twisted: Excellent post, great info, thats a view point that I knew many of the more experienced A/S users held, but few shared. I read the responses the first cycle posts all the time, and if you are not taking at least 500mg of test a week, stacked with some other shit, its a pussy cycle not worth doing. Almost any newbie, could run 250mg of test/wk for 8 weeks (with clomid eod +2 weeks after) and gain 15-20 lbs, provided they ate right, worked out hard, and got enough sleep. Most long term a/s users would kill for a 20 pound gain of mantainable muscle. Fuckenshreaded: Not a flame bro, but I mean you could have saved some time by saying: #1 take some time to research how the drugs you will be using will effect your body. Use them in proper dosages (Duh) #2 have a plan where you want to be before you start a cycle. (begin with the ending in mind, a regurgitated Steven Covey theme). Was there something else you said that I missed? Here's one for you.. K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) IP: Logged |
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Fukkenshredded Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 97) |
posted July 23, 2000 07:50 PM
Steroid Virgin... Thanks for the advice. Actually, though, there was quite a bit that you missed, but most likely because of my poor wording. I'll try and work on that in my future posts. I was, in my own clumsy way, stressing the value of sets to failure, and the reasons that I feel that such sets are important. I tend to analyze things in terms of cause and effect, always searching for the root cause. Often, this leads to intangible ideas and ultimately, nonstop babbling. Sort of like right now, you might say. Again, thanks for the observation. IP: Logged |
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kram696969 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 445) |
posted July 23, 2000 08:26 PM
good posts boys..keep it up kram-mark IP: Logged |
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The Ranger Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 1374) |
posted July 23, 2000 08:52 PM
Well, I guess I might as well be the asshole in this little discussion.....heh heh heh....But, I can't use all those "pulled them out my fucking ass words" Hahahahahahah!!! I believe in hitting the recpters hard from the start, but, I do agree that every body is different, to fuckkenshredded....right on!! Everyone should know their limitations, and max's, bf%, it is all so very important!! Again, I agree with shreeded's philosphy on training...." Rep for the burn, then 2 more in turn" That's the shit that makes ya grow feller's!! I amp of sus 250....Shit steele, do you honestly believe this is best??? If your 16, and bound and determined....yup!! I have given advice to alot of Bro's in gyms, and on the boards....for the latter in the age bracket above, going low, was a bitter disappointment! True, diet and training play a key factor in all this, and I'm not suggesting 1500mg's of test for a first cycle...but shit Bro...your's is a waste of time and money...end result...disappointment.. Hell, try 500 mg's per week, with an injection every 3 days to help the prop levels in the sus...clomid at 50mg's EOD, eat like a bitch, train like the sweat Gods that you are...get fucking huge, and scare the small children.....1 amp every 5 days or so...heh heh heh....stay in the women's tae bo classes....this is my personal opinion on this, and I will not cut, and paste alot of mumbo jumbo....talk from experience, and in English....we are all in awe of the big words now....so let the games begin....heh heh heh....your turn 2Thick!!! It's all good.....and getting better!!! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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bad brains Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 645) |
posted July 23, 2000 09:18 PM
10 amps of sus?..........Why bother, I did 16 my first cycle and wish'd I'd have gotten around 20.........Also stacking was key in the success of my first cycle.......Everybody is gonna react differently to AS, this is true, but telling a newcomer that all he needs is 10 amps of said steroid is not very sound advice.To all newbies looking to set up a first cycle, check out some made up by E2, BIZ, or several other extremely informed members of this board......Not a flame Twisted, just my 2 cents............. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Romeo Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 585) |
posted July 23, 2000 09:21 PM
now you guys are both making excellent points...from what i have read the majority of people on the board would agree that hitting the receptors hard on your first cycle is best......twisted this is just what i have heard ...i am an AS virgin...so from what i have learned ....i would be going by what the ranger and many others have advised....but i am a bit on the safe side ...so for my first cycle i am probably just going to do winstrol....then for my second cycle.....i will venture to the tests and other such ASs.......i want to see how my body handles AS....i would hope most people would do the same ....and be smart shit this is almost like a catch 22.... i know i didnt make much sense but right now this is all i could conjure up in my brain peace romeo IP: Logged |
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E2 Moderator (Total posts: 3640) |
posted July 24, 2000 08:49 AM
NOw there have been some good points made in this thread, one of which is taking the time to discover what drugs work well with your body. This is the most important thing, i have friends who will gain nothing off tren, but will blow up off primo. I've yet to personally meet someone who won't grow off test though. It's a great idea to use certain drugs alone so you can guage you bodies response to them. Now, as you all know, i'm a big supporter of the hit it hard philosophy. Twisted, there are some newbies who would gain 10-20 lbs of mass off your cycle, but there aren't many of them. And if you want to talk about the amount of lean muscle mass that someone puts on, then 20 lbs off that cycle is impossible or you'd have to be a genetic freak. Most of my newbie, INSANE-O cycles are geared towards maximum growth with the least amount of side effects. I think they're excellent for many newbies, and yes i've seen several steroid beginners gain 20 SOLID pounds of muscle off these cycles. WHich typically means they gain about 40 lbs of mass then cut down. I can't agree with taking such low doses, most people i know who start out small, when they look back wish they'd gone a lot harder. We all know that the gains off your first cycle are incredible, so why not maximize that??? Take it hard, but not stupid. My INSANE-O cycles are not that hard, when you look at the big picture, 750-1000mg of test a week, with say 400mg deca a week and 6dbol.day, at the beginning. It's not that hard at all. And if done properly then it's very safe.
sust****deca***dbol*****Winny as well clomid eod during whole cycle, the deca shot once a week the sust shot every 3 days, and the dbol take EVERY 4 HOURS including nightime. The clen take tabs until you shake like a mofo then back off 1/2 tab. stop the clen when you body tempereature goes back to normal, then start eca. 25 mg ephedrine, 200mg caffine and 350 mg asprin three times a day. Just don't take it to late in teh day or you'll never get to sleep. 21 Sust IP: Logged |
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Twisted_Steel Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 401) |
posted July 24, 2000 10:46 AM
Based upon my limited observations I have chosen a route based upon slow, consistant, graduated yearly growth. My interests lie within the future not the present. Time and time again I have seen athletes start fresh bomb their receptors make quality first/2nd cycle gains then in effect cease to grow. Starting at 750mg along with 400 deca and six d-ball doesnt leave much room for sensible progression anabolic progression given the finite of receptor sights the human body has. My perspective comes from being amongst a circle of successful NPC state lvl and national lvl competitors withs years of experience behind them. My anabolic experience will yeild me years of successful graduated growth. Done efficiently and intelligibly, not with the blind brute force of a quantity over quality approach to anabolic supplementations. However, our disagreement only resides within the means, not the ends. Were all on the same wave length here. I am just proscribing a successful approach, which in essence is more time consuming than yours, but none the less will yield in my opinion a more satisfying outcome. There is no contentment in a lifetime of maintance training for me or anyone in my company involved in bodybuilding. Let me just end by saying, natural growth and anabolic growth in principle should be the same, the only difference is the final yield. Slow consistant and stable. This is the wisest approach if the athlete is consious of his future. Of course, 250mg of sustanon will not yield the growth of 750mg. But, I will say without equivication that my athlete having completed a base of 250mg cycle, then a 500mg cycle, then on to 750mg will superceed the oppossing athletes gain made off his initial 750mg run HANDS DOWN. My boy will take longer to do it, but he will have the 1st place open trophy by his feet. Good responses gentlemen, Im priviliedged to have the opportunity to discuss this issue with you. Godbless ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Ice Man Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 578) |
posted July 24, 2000 11:01 AM
Great thread gentleman. Bump. IP: Logged |
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ulter Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 211) |
posted July 24, 2000 12:16 PM
I'll say this for E2 he stands behind this newbie cycle steadfastly. This is the same cycle he wrote about in "The Great Debate of April 8" (ref: https://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/Archives/Forum1/04-2000/008425.html ) and he hasn't moved from this position. Nobody rational would do that unless they have had continued success with it. The place I disagree is using d-bol, a compound created 30 plus years ago that is too toxic and just adds too much water that has to come off again later. The dbol is for instant gratification. I'll wait for the test to kick in. I agree with Twisted's method of being the tortoise with a plan and not the hare. Hindsight being 20/20, I look back after 17 years and wish I hadn't beaten up my body with no goal other than to "get bigger" fast. But it's never too late to start over. IP: Logged |
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Twisted_Steel Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 401) |
posted July 24, 2000 05:51 PM
Knowledge is power, bump! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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SheepsHead Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 3) |
posted July 24, 2000 06:01 PM
it's threads like this that keep making this board the king of them all, and i read most of them. as you can see i don't post but i consume plenty in the form of knowledge. OUTSTANDING!!!! major cudo's for you all guys. IP: Logged |
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Romeo Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 585) |
posted July 24, 2000 06:10 PM
definitly bump for knowledge is power peace romeo IP: Logged |
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The Ranger Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 1374) |
posted July 24, 2000 08:06 PM
Twisted, This response I'm more inclined to agree with...to a point of course. Someone who is new to the sport...yes, take it slow if you are unsure. But, I still stand behing the hard hitting recpter theroy, I feel it is a must based on the lifters individual goals, and most importantly...experience!! Face it....we as lifters, powerlifters, and or Bodybuilders, haven't the time for the slow coming gains...WE WANT IT NOW!!!!! This is the sole reason we turn to the high performance supplements....why get in 2 years, what you can have in 8 to 10 weeks, and if done right...post cycle you will retain most of the gains....Anyone wishing to try the slow approach to be safe is fine.....hardcore needs to be on another level.....they need to become a part of the Captain-Insane-O's of the future....Good thread Steel....enjoying it!!! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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DREXX Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 476) |
posted July 24, 2000 08:56 PM
Good Thread! Bump for the others... I am more of a moderate user myself. I am now doing 750mg of sust only for 6 weeks. I like the good and gradual gains. Eventually I will work up to an insano cycle but now the money isn't there so I use what I can and also make very respectable gains. IP: Logged |
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giantset Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 255) |
posted July 24, 2000 09:21 PM
Twisted, I think that what you should be arguing is for low total milligrams of steroids to be used in newbies. I certainly advocate a logical progression of steroid usage, starting low and increasing dosages as your body requires to further growth. I also agree that using one steroid at a time will alow a newbie to find the steroids that work best for them. However, stacking provides a synergistic effect as well as changing the ratio of androgenic and anabolic effects of the cycle. There are a variety of steroids on the market in an attempt to provide the correct anabolic/androgenic ratio and correct secondary effects for any given application. However, as bodybuilders, we know that a combination of steroids, deca and dbol for example, provide a synergistic effect that neither can provide on its own. By combining these two steroids you have a anabolic/androgenic ratio that is much different than either compound by itself as well as an amassing of secondary effects such as a sense of well-being from the dbol and allieviation of joint pain from the deca. I see your point on keeping it simple for newbies but I stand firm that they can benefit even more from a low dose cycle containing a combination of steroids. There is no reason for a newbie to start with 50mg per day of dbol and 500mg of deca but they could take 15-20mg of dbol and 200mg of deca and still have room to advance. Dosages of course are dependant on many factors and would have to be adjusted but my point is to prevent you from dismissing the use of stacks in someone's first few cycles. Everyone grows on test and I include it in almost all of my cycles. I just argue that using a less androgenic compound in combination, thus lowering the amounts of test required, will decrease the androgenic side effects and possibly increase the sustainable LBM that the lifter can obtain. You made a very valid point though. I just must state my counter-point. Later, IP: Logged |
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ulter Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 211) |
posted July 24, 2000 09:30 PM
Giantset, Why dbol and not test with the Deca? IP: Logged |
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giantset Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 255) |
posted July 24, 2000 09:41 PM
I was just speaking hypothetically. Deca and dbol are a classic stack so I thought I might use it as an example. I love deca and test and will be using it in my next cycle. In fact, many people stack deca, dbol, and test together. It all depends on what you are aiming for and what negative side effects you are willing to put up with. P.S. I like using dbol because it makes me feel high, or euphoric but pumped and mentally sharp at the same time. Later, [This message has been edited by giantset (edited July 25, 2000).] IP: Logged |
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grizz Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 13) |
posted July 24, 2000 11:28 PM
All you guys are great!! The amount of info a newbie can get off this board is amazing... Here is my two cents worth, as a true gear virgin, 41 years old, send me the roids and your newbie cycle and I will give you the results!! lol... Seriously thanks for this board and all the knowledge.... IP: Logged |
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Twisted_Steel Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 401) |
posted July 25, 2000 11:36 AM
Learn and enjoy the content of this discussion! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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scooby Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 152) |
posted July 25, 2000 02:33 PM
Now this is a damn good thread. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Jeff_rys Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 523) |
posted July 25, 2000 04:56 PM
bump ------------------ Don't look back, life is too short IP: Logged |
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Brutis Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 304) |
posted July 25, 2000 05:20 PM
Nothing I could say could possibly compare to what's been said, so I'll just bump for my other brothers to read and learn. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Spunky Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 182) |
posted July 25, 2000 05:28 PM
i'll bump to that.. im a bit lost after that one post however. =) IP: Logged |
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mokhtarsayed Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 174) |
posted July 25, 2000 05:44 PM
I doubt there's another board on the internet with a debate like this one. Beautiful! Bump. ------------------ _______________________ IP: Logged |
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giantset Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 255) |
posted July 26, 2000 01:26 AM
bump IP: Logged |
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Lqdmscle Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 211) |
posted July 26, 2000 06:23 AM
I don't have the time to explain in details, but LBM growth is in stages. People need to take different drugs and different amounts according to their growth stage. Hitting the receptors hard in the beginning is a big mistake. You want to shock your body, but not so drastically where your receptors shut down. You know your receptors shut down when you quit growing(plateau). That's why many amateurs will remain amateurs! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Lqdmscle (edited July 26, 2000).] IP: Logged |
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