posted June 18, 2000 06:17 PM            

here is some research i did a while back:most of this info comes from bill roberts, dan duchaine, and others on the meso site as well as other various site on the net including other boards. this is not my original information however i do not believe that a bibliography is necessary here. this is what i have been researching ALL DAY and have come up with:

HAIR LOSS:

Deca is easier on the hair than others, including natural testosterone, because it is converted in the scalp to a steroid weaker than Deca is. (DHN i believe)Nandrolone itself is a 5a -reductase inhibitor (although it yields DHN in the process). So less DHT is produced if nandrolone is present. Nandrolone will also inhibit natural production of testosterone, so there is less testosterone available to be converted to DHT.

Testosterone is harder on the hair and skin than others because in the skin it is converted to a more potent steroid, DHT.

With testosterone it is desirable to inhibit the 5AR enzymes so that less is converted to DHT. Azelaic acid seems to be the best thing to apply to the skin for this. Azelaic acid cream is available by prescription for treating acne, and, for the scalp, a preparation that also includes minoxidil is available from http://www.minoxidil.com.

With any androgen, blocking the androgen receptors in the scalp or facial skin will help avoid male pattern baldness or acne, respectively. Spironolactone has the disadvantage of yielding a bit of a wet-dog odor on metabolism or decomposition as it yields thioacetic acid, but it seems to be the best thing currently available.

The only commercially available AAS for human use which converts to DHT is testosterone. All others have modifications to the structure which make it absolutely impossible for them to be converted to DHT per se (dihydrotestosterone).

The testosterone user has high levels of DHT in the scalp, and therefore a lot of androgen in the scalp. The nandrolone user has low levels of DHT, instead having DHN, which is less potent.

Furthermore, DHT probably has hair loss activities not mediated by the androgen receptor, but by other proteins in the scalp and via the immune system. DHN may not have these activities.

More importantly, what is observed is that nandrolone is quite good for keeping one's hair, whereas testosterone is not, for those genetically predestined to lose their hair.

The price one pays for this, though, is that nandrolone is not as effective an anabolic as testosterone.

Primobolan and Winstrol act differently from DHT in that, unlike DHT, they are not converted to androstanediol. They are comparable in effect on the hair to anabolically-equivalent doses of any other synthetic except nandrolone.

If you stick to the 19-nortestosterone compounds (like Deca, Parabolin, Durabolin, Laurabolin, ect.....) you will avoid the DHT-induced hair loss that is seen with compounds that convert to DHT (eg. the testosterones). The Nandrolones (nortestosterone derivatives) are chemically unable to convert to DHT.

a person, who simply wishes to have an attractive physique and appearance by conventional standards, and highly values the condition of his skin and hair, would be poorly served by the advice to use Sustanon or Dianabol at any dose. The likely worsening of his skin and possible acceleration of hair loss would not be worth it. He would be better served with a milder drug, which would allow him to achieve his goals with minimal cosmetic or health risk. Some have found that Proscar acts to minimize effects of testosterone use on skin and hair. The objection that reduced conversion to DHT might reduce muscular growth may have some validity. This might be true either because of loss of DHT activity on nervous tissue, or because of possible loss of non-AR-mediated effects of androstanediol, a DHT metabolite, or an indirect effect not occurring in muscle tissue itself. DHT itself is not an effective anabolic for muscle tissue. If one chooses to use Proscar to minimize risk of hair loss, I would suggest topical use to the scalp, or if used orally, certainly not in excess of the recommended dose for medically-indicated use.

If you are on testosterone, anti-DHT Proscar � can reduce the side effects of this hormone a little. As DHT contributes to testicular atrophy, Proscar while on steroids can be of some use. Do not expect too much though. You can start with one pill (5 mg) a day for 3 to 5 days, then you can take one every third day.

winstrol is not a precursor of DHT, but is itself a potent agonist of the AR in skin and scalp.

Deca. Or with other steroids (actually, even with Deca for that matter) you could use topical spironolactone (available from http://www.minoxidil.com/). Among its other properties as an anti-androgen, spironolactone is a potent competitive inhibitor of DHT at its receptor sites[21]. Therefore, spironolactone effectively prevents DHT from attaching to the receptor sites on the hair follicles[22]. As a result, the follicles no longer atrophy and can mature again to their normal size. And it does so without decreasing the circulating levels of DHT in the body. By comparison, finasteride inhibits the formation of DHT, causing troublesome side effects in many patients.

perhaps the most effective hair growth drug currently available is called XANDROX 12.5%. It is a lotion that contains 12.5% micronized minoxidil and 5% azelaic acid. Its base is water-soluble and absorbs into the skin. It also contains an effective transdermal absorption enhancer. Because the concentration of minoxidil is so high in this new lotion, it is suggested that no more than one mL of it be applied daily. It is formulated to be used as a supplement to the Xandrox 5% solutions, which were made available seven months ago from Regrowth. XANDROX 12.5% is designed to fill the void and treat those stubborn areas of the scalp, which may not be responding adequately to other therapies. These areas often include the temples, frontal hairline or, in some cases, the vertex and crown. Because minoxidil is dose dependent, XANDROX 12.5% is specifically beneficial in these areas. The results of combining the hair growth properties of minoxidil with the ability of azelaic acid to inhibit virtually all dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in the scalp have proven to be extremely effective in halting and reversing MPB for the vast majority of patients. Nighttime and daytime Xandrox 5% solutions are available with and without 0.025% retinoic acid, respectively. Xandrox 12.5% lotion incorporates an absorption enhancer and does not contain Retin-A or betamethasone valerate. 30-mL bottles cost $27.86 and are fitted with a pump dispenser.

peace,

posted June 19, 2000 05:44 AM            

hey jameyjames this is very interesting the thing u said her

posted June 19, 2000 07:29 AM            

On what do you base your statements? Do you have any research to back you up or are you speaking from personal experience? Just curious because what your saying may change what alot of people think about deca and also primo.

posted June 19, 2000 10:47 AM         

Methenolone and stanozolol act the same as finasteride on the scalp (in some ways) in that it is less androgenic and will cause what seems to be increased hair loss. People do not see the benefits because they do not go on it long enough. But, I have seen quite a few people on long term methenolone have stable hair growth.

Also, it is true that testosterone is not very anabolic without DHT--have been privy to people using a generalized 5-alpha reductase with high dosages of testosterone with very little anabolic effect.

posted June 19, 2000 01:01 PM            

deca is not very androgenic bro. in addition, finasterdide should NOT be used with deca. it prevents deca from converting to dhn (much less androgenic than deca).

"Idiots like Bill Roberts state that the DHN will have a protective effect but this is not true--there will be no difference between using and not using finasteride with nandrolone."

it does have an effect. it prevents deca from converting to dhn. instead deca will not convert to dhn with the use of finasterdide.

"Methenolone and stanozolol act the same as finasteride on the scalp (in some ways) in that it is less androgenic and will cause what seems to be increased hair loss. People do not see the benefits because they do not go on it long enough. But, I have seen quite a few people on long term methenolone have stable hair growth."

how does winny act like finasterdide bro?

"Also, it is true that testosterone is not very anabolic without DHT--have been privy to people using a generalized 5-alpha reductase with high dosages of testosterone with very little anabolic effect."

bro DHT is NOT very anabolic at all.

"It is not smart to say that something is not very androgenic (like methenolone) and yet it causes bad hair loss...the androgenic phenomenon causes hairloss."

DHT is what causes the hairloss bro and yes it is very androgenic and barely anabolic. deca converts normally to dhn which is less androgenic than dht.

"Also, Bill Roberts would like everyone to believe that all anabolics are created equal except for differences in metabolites and the effects that they have. This is ludicrous--he's an idiot."

i have never seen him state this. i have only seen him state that the main diff. is the ESTERS, not the metabolites. he is right about the esters also.

bro - your statements still do not make pharmacological sense and you provide no references to your statements to make me enlightened.

peace,

posted June 19, 2000 03:48 PM         

First, Deca is much more androgenic than people give it credit for--not as bad as testosterone but still fairly androgenic--much more than stanozolol or methenolone or even norandrostenediol for that matter. It is at most a third less androgenic than testosterone. So...if you use 400mg per week it has very considerable androgenicity.

LIke I said finasteride will make no difference whatsoever on the androgenicity of Deca--stop being a mimicry for Bill Roberts--what actual experience do you have with finasteride and nandrolone?

Your assertion that nandrolone will convert into dht with finasteride is ludicrous. Dht is converted only from testosterone and not from any nandrolone derivative. With finasteride, you will not get DHN and that's it. But, like I said DHN will not have a protective effect like some claim!

In terms of hair growth stanozolol will act like finasteride in terms of it being less androgenic than your endogenous hormones. Both will cause regrowth and sustained stable hair growth and both will cause an initial perceptive hair loss which is falling out to make room for new growth.

Oh contrare bro, DHT is very anabolic and in fact it is the very thing that makes testosterone anabolic. Keep test from converting to dht and you knock out most of its anabolic potential. I have first hand knowledge of this!

DHT causes hairloss not because it is some evil compound but because it is androgenic. DHT type compounds only cause hairloss if they are androgenic--ones like stanozolol aren't very androgenic and don't cause many hair problems.

DHN might not cause hair loss problems but the nandrolone will do a fine job of this on its own as it is quite androgenic!!!!!

I am sorry you may not agree with this but it is the truth--not theory but real world BRO! Too many theories and not enough real world!!!!!

posted June 19, 2000 04:47 PM            

I just want to know what *******s have less potential to cause hair loss....

posted June 19, 2000 05:43 PM            

so my hair got thinner
caused by winstrol ??

should i continiu using winstrol then `?
since it makes "new hairgrowth" ?

i want both answers
form JJ and MSG

so i could se which answer i like best *hehe*

u guys said many interesting things here that i guess maybe noone on the board have any ide about thats maybe why nobody want to do a reply

posted June 19, 2000 05:45 PM            

first in my book, androgenic refers either generally to the activity of developing or maintaining male sexual characteristics or increasing growth of the prostate or the seminal vesicles. now if you are refering to androgenic as mediated via the androgen receptor, then you are right that deca is a very strong androgen, BUT typically when we speak of STRONG ANDROGENS we are refering to their high androgen to anabolic ratio. as shown by Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C.; et al. J. Pharm. Pharmac., 1976, 28, 882-885, deca has an anabolic to androgenic ratio of 25 to 1 bro! (very high). that to me implies that deca is not very androgenic in comparison to its anabolic properties.

"LIke I said finasteride will make no difference whatsoever on the androgenicity of Deca--stop being a mimicry for Bill Roberts--what actual experience do you have with finasteride and nandrolone?"

dude this is a ludicrous statement because i never said finasterdide does lower deca's androgenicity! i said it prevents deca from converting to dhn. deca is easier on the hair than others, including natural testosterone, because it is converted in the scalp to a steroid weaker than Deca is. - dhn! Nandrolone itself is a 5a -reductase inhibitor (although it yields DHN in the process). So less DHT is produced if nandrolone is present. Nandrolone will also inhibit natural production of testosterone, so there is less testosterone available to be converted to DHT. Testosterone is harder on the hair and skin than others because in the skin it is converted to a more potent steroid, DHT. Therefore this AAS is somewhat deactivated in the skin, scalp, and prostate, and these tissues experience an effectively-lower androgen level than the rest of the body. Therefore, for the same amount of activity as another drug at the androgen receptors (ARs) in muscle tissue, Deca gives less activity in the scalp, skin, and prostate. Thus, it is the best choice for those particularly concerned with these things. Synthetics which do not convert to DHT give only the same effective level of androgen in these tissues as in the body as a whole, rather than effectively three times the level. This is a significant advantage.

"In terms of hair growth stanozolol will act like finasteride in terms of it being less androgenic than your endogenous hormones. Both will cause regrowth and sustained stable hair growth and both will cause an initial perceptive hair loss which is falling out to make room for new growth."

oh my God! no way! winstrol will not make you grow hair on your head! although, winstrol is not a precursor of DHT, it is itself a potent agonist of the AR in skin and scalp. Primobolan and Winstrol act differently from DHT in that, unlike DHT, they are not converted to androstanediol. They are comparable in effect on the hair to anabolically-equivalent doses of any other synthetic except nandrolone.

"Oh contrare bro, DHT is very anabolic and in fact it is the very thing that makes testosterone anabolic. Keep test from converting to dht and you knock out most of its anabolic potential. I have first hand knowledge of this!"

DHT itself is not an effective anabolic for muscle tissue growth bro. research that if you like.

"DHT causes hairloss not because it is some evil compound but because it is androgenic. DHT type compounds only cause hairloss if they are androgenic--ones like stanozolol aren't very androgenic and don't cause many hair problems."

dude! the testosterone user has high levels of DHT in the scalp, and therefore a lot of androgen in the scalp. The nandrolone user has low levels of DHT, instead having DHN, which is less potent. Furthermore, DHT probably has hair loss activities not mediated by the androgen receptor, but by other proteins in the scalp and via the immune system. DHN may not have these activities.

"DHN might not cause hair loss problems but the nandrolone will do a fine job of this on its own as it is quite androgenic!!!!!"

most of the nandrolone converts to dhn in the scalp bro and as i have already said, dhn is MUCH less androgenic than DHT!

"I am sorry you may not agree with this but it is the truth--not theory but real world BRO! Too many theories and not enough real world!!!!!"

these are FACTS bro! REAL WORLD FACTS! i give up on explaining the pharmacology of it to you because you obviously have your mind set.

"Doesn't matter that much to me: keep using nandrolone and keep going bald--it is that simple!!!!!!"

who said i was going bald bro? let's not get personal. i am concerned about NOT getting bald! if you can not handle a debate w/o getting personal you are simply to me an immature little child that does not deserve my response.

THIS IS THE BOTTOM LINE:

The testosterone user has high levels of DHT in the scalp, and therefore a lot of androgen in the scalp. The nandrolone user has low levels of DHT, instead having DHN, which is less potent.

DHT is at least three times more potent (effective per milligram) than testosterone at the androgen receptor (AR): therefore, in those tissues which convert testosterone to DHT, there is effectively three times as much androgen as elsewhere in the body. Thus, whatever level of androgen is experienced by the muscle tissue is multiplied threefold or more in the skin and in the prostate. This can be excessive!

peace
!

posted June 19, 2000 06:01 PM            

damn u jamey james

u may be responsible to someone s hair loss ya know

i was going to buy a lot of winstrol and use A LOT of it and thought that loose my hair first whould grow a new hair in
u morron

thanks MSG u sAVED MY LIFE !!!

i guess JJ is BALD. :-P thats not going to happen to me man :-P

and MSG is PROSCAR A GOOD THING ? DOES IT GROW BACK SOME OF HAIR ? , gets thicker ?
or should i do proviron or finasterid ?
or Rogaine ?

what do you think

posted June 19, 2000 06:18 PM            

HELLO ??? !!!!!!!!

i am going to ise some testosterone
what should i take beside to prevent some of the hairloss
i dont care that i wont gain that much while using a hair medecin

i care about my hair

posted June 19, 2000 06:23 PM            

1. with any anabolic steroid, use nizoral shampoo.

2. with deca, do not use anything containing finasterdide or azaleic acid, but do use nizoral and a topical solution such as minoxidil or spironolactone.

3. with test (not deca), use nizoral, proscar, and a topical such as spironolactone or xandrox.

you can also use proscar about three weeks after your deca cycles and up until the start of a new deca cycle.

in addition you may want to try 12.5% xandrox to increase frontal hair on your head. but i would only use xandrox while not taking deca bc it contains azaleic acid.

visit www.minoxidil.com for more info there.

hope this helps.

peace.

posted June 19, 2000 08:07 PM            

I cant get my printer to work......I need a copy of this....

posted June 20, 2000 03:19 AM         

Now for the good stuff:

Too many people make the mistake of taking the anabolic/androgenic ratios in rats and assuming they're the same in humans. Don't ever do this. Also, noone in his right mind that has ever used nandrolone will say that it is a 25th as potent androgenically as testosterone--this is plain ludicrous. I agree that nandrolone has a better ratio than test but it is not that much better and is still a fairly androgenic hormone.

Let's get one thing straight. DHN is a third as androgenic as nandrolone. This is why someone MIGHT assume that when nandrolone is converted by 5a reductase it becomes less androgenic and has a protective effect. Thus, you might assume that inhibiting the enzyme and preventing the coonversion would make nandrolone more androgenic. It is a good assumption I agree but real world results make little difference. The nandrolone in and of itself it quite androgenic and overrides any "protective" effect of the DHN. Thus it makes no difference whether you use finasteride or not--you just won't see a difference. (I am talking about higher dosages here of about 400mg where your endogenous test levels go very low. If you took really low dosages of nandrolone then finasteride might benefit your hair as there would be plenty of test in your blood.)

I will agree that a certain amount of nandrolone is better than an equal amount of test because of the reasons stated about test converting in various tissues to dht. However, you act like dht is some special compound that particularly causes hair loss. It causes hair loss BECAUSE it is androgenic--simple! Nandrolone causes hair loss in the same way--because it is androgenic to the hair follicle.

MSG, you sound like a resounding board for Bill Roberts! Ok, I have seen many individuals do wonders on their hair by taking fairly high dosages of stanozolol or methenolone. You are so mistaken when you say that there is no difference in the effect of synthetic anabolics on the hair if taken at anabolically equivalent dosages. Dianabol fits this category and it is hell on the hair! Stanozolol and methenolone are not potent agonists in the skin and scalp. If this were true women would not and could not use these because they would experience bad acne on their face and bad hair loss. Women do get some hair loss with these but not that bad--especially compared to nandrolone or methandrostenolone!

DHT is a great anabolic and there is much research to show this--any scientific anabolic steroid manual will show you this. LIke I said--testosterone gets its STREngth from DHT--I am sorry you don't like this answer. You disagreeing proves that you have very little actual experience here. LIke I said before, I have experimented with a 5a reductase inhibitor that elimates 98% of this enzyme and I can tell you that even high dosages of test do very little when dht is eliminated.

You are right that a test user has a lot of DHT in the scalp and this is bad I agree because it is androgenic (this however is the only reason). Anyway, you act like because nandrolone gets converted by 5a reductase to DHN that DHN is the only thing present in the scalp. If this were true then your theory would be valid. However, nandrolone is quite androgenic and affects the scalp plenty all by itself.

My statement was not intended at you but for everyone that if they continue using nandrolone they will continue a significant balding effect--albeit diffuse loss and not pattern loss.

It is stupid to think that the anabolic properties of steroids are mediated only by one specific receptor. This will get you in lots of trouble.

I know quite a few people also that have injected norandrostenediol with quite good results--much less androgenic than nandrolone and almost as anabolic.

posted June 20, 2000 09:53 AM            

Dude � you have NO IDEA what I have or have not seen. I will tell you that I have seen enough to know that a cycle of winny will NOT HELP you grow hair!

�Like I said, I have a large amount of experience with this with many different subjects. I don't want to say what I do for a living but needless to say I have a great deal of experience.�

Buddy you could be an endocrinologist and a pro bodybuilder and it would still not make false statements true.

�Too many people make the mistake of taking the anabolic/androgenic ratios in rats and assuming they're the same in humans. Don't ever do this.�

I do not. thank you.

�I agree that nandrolone has a better ratio than test but it is not that much better and is still a fairly androgenic hormone.�

Now we are getting somewhere.

�Let's get one thing straight. DHN is a third as androgenic as nandrolone. This is why someone MIGHT assume that when nandrolone is converted by 5a reductase it becomes less androgenic and has a protective effect�.

No one EVER said that nandrolone has a �protective� effect! But you are right that it is 1/3 less androgenic than norandrolone.

�The nandrolone in and of itself it quite androgenic and overrides any "protective" effect of the DHN. Thus it makes no difference whether you use finasteride or not--you just won't see a difference.�

True that nandrolone is quite androgenic via its strong binding to the AR receptor, but we you have also stated that test is more androgenic than deca. This will be needed later.

�If you took really low dosages of nandrolone then finasteride might benefit your hair as there would be plenty of test in your blood.�

Why? I do not understand. The really low dose of nandro would simply not be converted to dhn. Therefore you would have really low doses on nandro present at the AR in the scalp. How can this be better?

�I will agree that a certain amount of nandrolone is better than an equal amount of test because of the reasons stated about test converting in various tissues to dht. However, you act like dht is some special compound that particularly causes hair loss. It causes hair loss BECAUSE it is androgenic--simple! Nandrolone causes hair loss in the same way--because it is androgenic to the hair follicle.�

I agree that nandrolone can cause hairloss in the scalp bc it itself is androgenic but you are forgetting the fact that MOST of the nandro gets converted to dhn in the scalp! It is no longer highly androgenic! (unless you take finasterdide!)

�MSG, you sound like a resounding board for Bill Roberts!�

and you sound like a resounding board for a finasterdide salesman at my gym. So what?

�Ok, I have seen many individuals do wonders on their hair by taking fairly high dosages of stanozolol or methenolone.�

Bro � I have NEVER heard of this and it makes no sense!

�You are so mistaken when you say that there is no difference in the effect of synthetic anabolics on the hair if taken at anabolically equivalent dosages. Dianabol fits this category and it is hell on the hair!�

dbol is HIGHLY ANDROGENIC! If you take an ANABOLICALLY equivalent dose of dbal and an ANABOLICALLY equivalent dose of any other roid except the nandro�s, they will have the same appx effect unless they are agonists of the hair and skin AR receptors themselves such as primo and winny.

�Stanozolol and methenolone are not potent agonists in the skin and scalp. If this were true women would not and could not use these because they would experience bad acne on their face and bad hair loss. Women do get some hair loss with these but not that bad--especially compared to nandrolone or methandrostenolone!�

NOT TRUE. We are also talking about MPB (Male pattern baldness) here. In addition, women DO experience bad acne and hairloss on winny and primo buddy. It just depends on the dosage and if they are prone to hairloss which most women luckily for them or not.

�DHT is a great anabolic and there is much research to show this--any scientific anabolic steroid manual will show you this. LIke I said--testosterone gets its STREngth from DHT--I am sorry you don't like this answer. You disagreeing proves that you have very little actual experience here.�

DHT is NOT a great anabolic. It is considered by some to be a great androgen as far as neurological effects but it does not have a high anabolic value and I would like to see the research you are referring to. I know MANY guys that take finasterdide and proscar with test and have GREAT GAINS! How could this be if DHT was so anabolic and they are eliminating most of it?

�It is stupid to think that the anabolic properties of steroids are mediated only by one specific receptor. This will get you in lots of trouble.�

There is only the AR bro. Different anabolics work via different means and even non AR means, but there is only on type of receptor � the AR.

�I have seen several people take 50mg per day of stanozolol over a 3-4 month time frame without hardly any androgenic side effects--especially on the scalp. And yes, they even got some hair regrowth.�

Perhaps they were in the growth phase of their hair cycle, but winny will not cause hair growth on your head.

HERE IS A SIMPLE EXAMPLE WHICH COMES FROM THINGS WE AGREE ON:

I will give andronicity �scores� (that we have basically agreed upon in magnitude) and since we agree that the androgenicity is what causes the hairloss you will see why test is hardest and deca is easiest w/o finasterdide.

Anabolic--------androgenicity
Test-------------------10
Deca------------------9 (this is high even but it will enforce my point)
Winny-----------------6

Now the above values may differ a little but you will see what I mean:

Scenario 1:
500mg test (10) will convert to dht (>10) � dht is more androgenic than test!

Scenario 2:
500mg deca (9) will convert to dhn (3) � 1/3 less androgenic than deca!

Scenario 3:
500mg winny (6) no conversion but present as is at the AR in the scalp as winny (6)

scenario 4:
500mg deca (9) plus finasterdide implies no conversion to dhn so still nandrolone (9)

THERE you have it! Deca ends up being the FAR LESS androgenic substance in the scalp and hair at equal doses when not used with finasterdide! Why is this so complicated? It is simple math bro. The only variable here is how much of the nandro is converted to dhn in the hair and scalp, which is most of it when not in the presence of finasterdide.

You see bro. What you are saying still makes absolutely no sense for the most part. Perhaps to you it does and I give up on that. I am not sure about all of your experience or whatever, but your reasoning does NOT add up � even mathmatically and logistically.

This is my last response here because I believe that my fellow bros have seen what I have to say and can decide for themselves but I leave them with one warning:

DO NOT TAKE WINNY AS A HAIR GROWTH SUPPLEMENT!!! You WILL be disappointed.

Thank you guys for putting up with this long ass thread.

posted June 20, 2000 11:59 AM            

i really dont know a shit
if this isnt cleared up by somone else
HEY MODERATORS WHAT ARE YA DOING ?

posted June 20, 2000 01:50 PM            

keep up the goodwork
this is a discussion board
and i am realy confiused

posted June 20, 2000 03:06 PM            

and see what the anabolex hair guru has to say. hmmmm sound very familar to what i have been saying also. hope that helps you guys.

posted June 20, 2000 07:31 PM         

First, I don't care what the Anabolix guy has to say. My whole point here is that the industry is highly confused on this point--too many theories but not enough experience.

You are right that a cycle of stanozolol will not help you grow hair but if you took a high enough dose to supress your own test levels (300-400mg per week) and stayed on it for quite a few months you would notice stabilization in your scalp. It depends on how bad the situation is really. Some will get some regrowth and some will just have significantly halted the balding process. Stanozolol is just a lot less androgenic than either test or nandrolone at anabolically equivalent dosages.

MSG, actually you do confuse the studies in rats with those in humans if you cannot understand that a 25:1 anabolic to androgenic ratio for nandrolone is way off base--you quoting this shows how little you know about this whole thing.

You asked how could finasteride help with low dose nandrolone. Well BRO, with low dose nandrolone, there will still be plenty of test which can be converted into DHT which is pretty bad for hair (because it is so androgenic). In terms of the nandrolone, you are still confused that it is more harmful when it does not convert into DHN. The fact remains that on paper your arguement looks good but in real life it just doesn't matter!

You mentioned that most of the nandrolone is converted into DHN in the scalp. This is just simply WRONG! This is the exact point why your theory doesn't work! If you had real world experience you would have known this and modified your theory like I did. I too believed what you believed once until I SAW the truth!

Your next statement is so off base. An anabolically equivalent dosage of stanozolol is much less androgenic than methandrostenolone or nandrolone for that matter. And.....to say that stanozolol and methenolone are extra specially androgenic in the skin and scalp is so ludicrous that I don't know what to say. Do you have any experience with these compounds except what somebody has told you about them?

Ok, now to expose another one of your fallacies that women are less prone as men given similar scenarios. Hey BRO, women carry the same gene as men and will experience just as much hairloss given the appropriate androgenic stimulus. Men have pattern baldness because of susceptability via the gene and the appropriate androgenic stimulus. There is a pattern to it because it is these areas that have the highest concentration of 5a reductase and dht. Some women who are susceptible might lose some hair with stanozolol because it will still be more androgenic than what they naturally have but the loss will not be extensive. The same thing that causes hair loss causes deepening of the voice, clitoral enlargement, facial hair growth etc etc. Women use methenolone and stanozolol for a reason--THEY ARE LESS ANDROGENIC period!!!! From what your are saying, women should only use nandrolone. I know women who do this and they experience much more androgenic phenomenon on this than the other two. I hope you get a clue and never recommend a women to take methandrostenolone or oxymetholone because they "are all the same" You are dangerous MSG just admit it!

Like I said, stop listening to people and go to the library and get a SCIENTIFIC anabolic steroid manual produced back in the 60's--you will learn a lot. DHT is very anabolic and that's a fact! In fact, you would be better off injecting this instead of testosterone as it would have similar anabolic and androgenic effects but with no estrogenic effects. People on finasteride will not do as well as those not on it. Finasteride knocks out only about 60-70% of the dht so there is still quite a bit of potential for gains. However, if you knocked out all of the dht like I have seen done in experiments then the anabolic activity would be waaay reduced. One interesting thing here though is that the sex drive is still quite high WITHOUT the dht. I am still figuring this one out.

Your point that there is only one androgen receptor is flawed--this has not been shown and is only Bill Roberts opinion (do you have any of your own?) There are isotypes of other steroid receptors such as estrogen and there is evidence to suggest the same with the androgen receptor. It is not a completely different receptor--just an isotype that binds certain configurations better than others. I remember seeing research in another vertebrate where there were two isotypes of the AR identified. One bound testosterone really well and on bound dht really well.

Let me clear one thing up--stanozolol is not something that inherently causes hair growth however if you have a certain rate of hair loss and a certain level of androgens are suppressing hair follicles and then your biochemistry changes and there is less androgenicity in the scalp there will be improved hair growth and possibly some hair regrowth. Finasteride is like this--it doesn't totally eliminate androgens in your body but it eliminates a large portion of the androgenicity and thus you have stabilization of the follicles and some hair regrowth

You hit it on the head when you said the variable is how much of the nandrolone gets converted in the scalp. You said most of it which is way, way wrong!

For those of you who doubt, ask any women who has used various anabolics/androgens and see what she says. Bar none, she will have better results with stanozolol and methenolone than any other agent!

posted June 21, 2000 10:24 AM         

1. DHT is a good anabolic although quite androgenic
2. Nandrolone is fairly androgenic
3. Methenolone and Stanozolol are not very androgenic and were designed even for women to be able to use them
4. The degree of hairloss is correlated to the degree of androgenicity

There are no studies on:

1. Effects of finasteride on nandrolone usage.

It's just that simple. Someone posted asking about trenbolone. This will most certainly cause quite a bit of hairloss.

One more thing: it all depends on how susceptible you are. Nandrolone will be fine for some people that don't have much of a problem while that won't work for others that have a worse condition or are very protective of their hair. Again, methenolone and stanozolol are best.

posted June 21, 2000 10:56 AM            

THIS IS WHAT I KNOW

posted June 21, 2000 01:04 PM            

The preponderance of evidence is that there is only one AR, and that differences in activity are a result either of difference in the length of time in which the AAS molecule remains bound to the receptor, or to differences resulting from tissue-specific metabolism of the drugs.11

11. Keller TE et al. Frontiers in Bioscience (1996) Available online at: http://www.bioscience.org/1996/v1/d/keller1/htmls/1.htm

The availability of a 4 double bond to be enzymatically reduced, and the activity of any such reduced metabolite relative to the unmetabolized drug, has been discovered to be of prime importance in determining a molecule's dissociation between anabolic and androgenic effects. It has been shown recently that, unlike testosterone, nandrolone (19-nortestosterone) becomes less potent when it is metabolized to the dihydro from by 5-reductase.15

15. Sundaram K et al. J Steroid Biochem Molec Biol (1995) 53 253

As described previously, this compound loses potency upon reduction, which provides a logical explanation for its observed improvement in anabolic/androgenic dissociation.22

22. Lyritis GP et al. Bone Miner (1994) 27 209

DHT is an extremely potent ANDROGEN (probably the king of androgens) and is responsible for HAIRLOSS and prostate growth and a host of other developmental changes throughout the embryonic stages as well as puberty.

Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 31(5 Supp): May 1999

The former is seen when DHT is converted to androstanediol (not androstenediol) in muscle tissue (Figure 4): this is the reason DHT is not an effective anabolic in muscle tissue.) Proviron also undergoes this transformation and is deactivated in muscle tissue. The conversion of DHT to androstanediol also occurs in scalp tissue, and androstanediol may be of relevance in the development of male pattern baldness.

figure 4.
Enzymes are necessary to activate esterified steroids (the drug is inactive as long as the ester group remains present) and are necessary to deactivate steroids or to make them more water soluble and more readily excreted. They are also necessary to convert the prohormones to the active hormones. Aromatase and 5AR both convert testosterone to active compounds which may have different activities: to estrogen (in the case of aromatase) or to DHT, a more potent androgen, in the case of 5AR. 3bHSD also can convert an active compound, DHT, to androstanediol (not androstenediol) which while it is not active at the androgen receptor, may be of relevance in the development of male pattern BALDNESS.
Control of the aromatase enzyme by inhibitors is recommended if aromatizable steroids with a C19 group (e.g., testosterone, Dianabol) are being used. A 5AR inhibitor is recommended in cases where testosterone is being used and the individual is particularly concerned about the prostate. Should a Type 1 5AR inhibitor become available, it would be of use in limiting the acne-inducing and male pattern baldness accelerating activities of testosterone.

Mesomorphosis.com January 1, 1999 Volume 2, Number 1

The main reason nortestosterone is so popular is because of its LOWER androgenicity. It competes with testosterone for the 5-alpha reductase enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT and instead converts to dihydronortestosterone which is MUCH LESS androgenic. Therefore you are less likely to experience side effects often associated with testosterone such as acne, HAIRLOSS, etc.

Mauvais-Jarvis P, et al. "Inhibition of Testosterone Conversion to
Dihydrotestosterone in Men Treated Percutaneously by Progesterone" J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1974 Jan;38(1):142-7.

Thorneycroft IH. "Update on Androgenicity" Am J Obstet Gynecol. 1999 Feb;180(2 Pt 2):288-94

Karlis Ullis, MD, is the Medical Director of the Sports Medicine and Anti-Aging Medical Group in Santa Monica, California and a faculty member of the UCLA School of Medicine. Dr. Ullis has recently completed two books published by Simon & Schuster: Age Right : Turn Back the Clock With a Proven, Personalized Antiaging Program and Super-"T", The Complete Guide to Creating an Effective, Safe, and Natural Testosterone Enhancement Program for Men and Women (Fireside Division of Simon & Schuster)

Josh Shackman, M.A., is the Research Administrative Director at the Sports Medicine and Anti-Aging Medical Group and a co-author of Super-"T", The Complete Guide to Creating an Effective, Safe, and Natural Testosterone Enhancement Program for Men and Women.

If you stick to the 19-nortestosterone compounds (like Deca, Parabolin, Durabolin, Laurabolin, ect.....) you will avoid the DHT-induced hair loss that is seen with compounds that convert to DHT (eg. the testosterones). The Nandrolones (nortestosterone derivatives) are chemically unable to convert to DHT. Give them a try.

Mesomorphosis
March 15, 1999
Volume 2, Number 6 � dave palumbo

In some cases, women have had virilization problems with oral Winstrol at only 2 mg/day. Thus, it cannot be assumed that even a single tab per day is necessarily safe for all women concerned about maintaining their natural voice, avoiding hirsutism, etc.

Steroid Profiles-mesomorphosis
March 1, 1999
Volume 2, Number 5

Therefore, for the same amount of activity as another drug at the androgen receptors (ARs) in muscle tissue, Deca gives less activity in the scalp, skin, and prostate. Thus, it is the BEST choice for those particularly concerned with these things. Particular properties of testosterone that are of note include that it converts enzymatically both to DHT and to estradiol (estrogen). While with normal levels of testosterone these conversions are in fact desirable, with supraphysiological levels caused by drug adminstration they can be undesirable. DHT is at least three times more potent (effective per milligram) than testosterone at the ANDROGEN receptor (AR): therefore, in those tissues which convert testosterone to DHT, there is effectively THREE times as much ANDROGEN as elsewhere in the body. Thus, whatever level of androgen is experienced by the muscle tissue is multiplied threefold or more in the skin and in the prostate. This can be EXCESSIVE. Proscar could be used to keep DHT levels more or less normalized despite heavy testosterone use, however. Prostate enlargement, worsening of acne, and acceleration of male pattern baldness (for those genetically susceptible to it) are particularly severe because of the effectively-higher androgen levels seen in these tissues as a result of local conversion to the more-potent DHT. Synthetics which do not convert to DHT give ONLY the same effective level of androgen in these tissues as in the body as a whole, rather than effectively three times the level. This is a significant advantage. Unlike Deca, it is not metabolically deactivated by 5 -reductase and therefore is NOT AS KIND to the skin and hair as that drug � however, by suppressing natural testosterone production and therefore the highly potent DHT, it can improve skin relative to using no AAS at all.

Steroid Profiles-mesomorphosis
March 1, 1999
Volume 2, Number 5

i also have seen the above facts in real life bro. where are your references?

peace

posted June 21, 2000 01:16 PM         

Okay, msg and JJ: Time to make your 5 top key points. Start with number 1 and go to number 5. Just a few sentences each please for each number. Your closing arguments please and your recommended action for combatting hair loss with gear usage.

posted June 21, 2000 01:22 PM            

That link is a NO-GO.

posted June 21, 2000 01:25 PM            

:-)

posted June 21, 2000 04:40 PM            

------------------
Don't put off to tomorrow what you can do today.

posted June 21, 2000 04:58 PM         

MSG's references show that nandrolone is better than testosterone because DHN is less androgenic than DHT. I agree with this! But this is not the arguement!

Also, he mentioned that trenbolone does't cause excessive hairloss--ha! Trenbolone is very bad for hairloss and all other androgenic phenomenon!

My closing arguements:

1. Nandrolone IS better than testosterone but it is not the best anabolic compound in terms of hairloss.

2. Taking finasteride with nandrolone will not make any real world differences. You might think that the less potent androgenically DHN would protect or be kinder on your hair but this is not the case real world.

3. DHT is anabolic and has been shown to be roughly as anabolic and androgenic when injected as testosterone itself

4. If there is no conversion into DHT then testosterone has very limited anabolic properties.

5. Hairloss is directly correlated with how androgenic something is.

6. Stanozolol and methenolone are very low androgenically and are some of the best compounds to use if you have hairloss problems.

7. Stan. and Meth. are not potent androgens in the skin and scalp.

8. In vitro data and data in rats does not translate into real world results.

9. Women use Stan. and meth. more than any others because they are not as androgenic.

10. All steroids beside nandrolone and testosterone are not equal. This is why anabolic to androgenic ratios were developed. MSG's assertion that an anabolically equivalent dosage of dianabol and oxandrolone are the same is downright ludicrous!

posted June 21, 2000 08:21 PM            

1. TEST - hardest on the hair and skin than any other AS because in the skin it is converted to a more potent steroid, DHT. The testosterone user has high levels of DHT in the scalp, and therefore a lot of androgen in the scalp.

2. DHT itself is not an effective anabolic for MUSCLE tissue, however it is at least three times more potent (effective per milligram) than testosterone at the androgen receptor (AR): therefore, in those tissues which convert testosterone to DHT, there is effectively three times as much androgen as elsewhere in the body. Thus, whatever level of androgen is experienced by the muscle tissue is multiplied THREEFOLD or more in the skin and in the prostate. This can be excessive! DHT is converted to androstanediol (not androstenediol) in muscle tissue. this is the reason DHT is not an effective anabolic in muscle tissue.

3. PRIMO and WINSTROL - winny is not a precursor of DHT, but is itself a potent agonist of the AR in skin and scalp. Synthetics which do not convert to DHT give only the SAME effective level of androgen in these tissues as in the body as a whole, rather than effectively three times the level. This is a significant advantage. Primobolan and Winstrol act differently from DHT in that, unlike DHT, they are not converted to androstanediol. They are comparable in effect on the hair to anabolically-equivalent doses of any other synthetic except nandrolone. also, in some cases, women have had virilization problems with oral Winstrol at only 2 mg/day. Thus, it cannot be assumed that even a single tab per day is necessarily SAFE for ALL women concerned about maintaining their natural voice, avoiding hirsutism, etc.

4. DECA - for the same amount of activity as another drug at the androgen receptors (ARs) in muscle tissue, Deca gives less activity in the scalp, skin, and prostate. The main reason nortestosterone is so popular is because of its LOWER androgenicity. It competes with testosterone for the 5-alpha reductase enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT and instead converts to dihydronortestosterone which is MUCH LESS androgenic. Therefore you are less likely to experience side effects often associated with testosterone such as acne, HAIRLOSS, etc. If you stick to the 19-nortestosterone compounds (like Deca, Parabolin (if you can find it - lol), Durabolin, Laurabolin, etc.....) you will avoid the DHT-induced hair loss that is seen with compounds that convert to DHT (eg. the testosterones). The Nandrolones (nortestosterone derivatives) are chemically unable to convert to DHT. finasterdide prevents deca from converting to dhn. instead deca will not convert to dhn with the use of finasterdide.

5. ONLY ONE TYPE OF ANDROGEN RECEPTOR (AR)-Different anabolics work via different means and even non AR means, but there is only on type of receptor � the AR. The preponderance of evidence is that there is only one AR, and that differences in activity are a result either of difference in the length of time in which the AAS molecule remains bound to the receptor, or to differences resulting from tissue-specific metabolism of the drugs.

MY SUGGESTIONS:

a. with ANY ANABOLIC STEROID - use nizoral shampoo.

b. with DECA - do not use anything containing finasterdide or azelaic acid, but do use nizoral and a topical solution such as minoxidil or spironolactone .you can also use proscar about three weeks after your deca cycles and up until the start of a new deca cycle.

c. with TEST - use nizoral, proscar, and a topical such as spironolactone or xandrox 12.5% or 5% or minoxidil.

that is the best and most researched advice i can give. as you have all seen i have REFERENCED my info. also, feel free to search around the boards, in books, and on the net for yourselves bros to verify what i am saying - and good luck and GOOD HAIR bros!

peace,

posted June 22, 2000 08:42 PM            

I contend your assertion that the 5% Xandrox does not contain azelaic acid. I believe that it does. Therefore it should NOT be used with deca as stated in your closing article.

posted June 22, 2000 09:36 PM            

I want something to stop all this shedding.................................