posted May 28, 2000 06:59 PM            

this is what i have been researching ALL DAY and have come up with:

HAIR LOSS:

Deca is easier on the hair than others, including natural testosterone, because it is converted in the scalp to a steroid weaker than Deca is. (DHN i believe)Nandrolone itself is a 5a -reductase inhibitor (although it yields DHN in the process). So less DHT is produced if nandrolone is present. Nandrolone will also inhibit natural production of testosterone, so there is less testosterone available to be converted to DHT.

Testosterone is harder on the hair and skin than others because in the skin it is converted to a more potent steroid, DHT.

With testosterone it is desirable to inhibit the 5AR enzymes so that less is converted to DHT. Azelaic acid seems to be the best thing to apply to the skin for this. Azelaic acid cream is available by prescription for treating acne, and, for the scalp, a preparation that also includes minoxidil is available from http://www.minoxidil.com.

With any androgen, blocking the androgen receptors in the scalp or facial skin will help avoid male pattern baldness or acne, respectively. Spironolactone has the disadvantage of yielding a bit of a wet-dog odor on metabolism or decomposition as it yields thioacetic acid, but it seems to be the best thing currently available.

The only commercially available AAS for human use which converts to DHT is testosterone. All others have modifications to the structure which make it absolutely impossible for them to be converted to DHT per se (dihydrotestosterone).

The testosterone user has high levels of DHT in the scalp, and therefore a lot of androgen in the scalp. The nandrolone user has low levels of DHT, instead having DHN, which is less potent.

Furthermore, DHT probably has hair loss activities not mediated by the androgen receptor, but by other proteins in the scalp and via the immune system. DHN may not have these activities.

More importantly, what is observed is that nandrolone is quite good for keeping one's hair, whereas testosterone is not, for those genetically predestined to lose their hair.

The price one pays for this, though, is that nandrolone is not as effective an anabolic as testosterone.

Primobolan and Winstrol act differently from DHT in that, unlike DHT, they are not converted to androstanediol. They are comparable in effect on the hair to anabolically-equivalent doses of any other synthetic except nandrolone.

If you stick to the 19-nortestosterone compounds (like Deca, Parabolin, Durabolin, Laurabolin, ect.....) you will avoid the DHT-induced hair loss that is seen with compounds that convert to DHT (eg. the testosterones). The Nandrolones (nortestosterone derivatives) are chemically unable to convert to DHT.

a person, who simply wishes to have an attractive physique and appearance by conventional standards, and highly values the condition of his skin and hair, would be poorly served by the advice to use Sustanon or Dianabol at any dose. The likely worsening of his skin and possible acceleration of hair loss would not be worth it. He would be better served with a milder drug, which would allow him to achieve his goals with minimal cosmetic or health risk.
Some have found that Proscar acts to minimize effects of testosterone use on skin and hair. The objection that reduced conversion to DHT might reduce muscular growth may have some validity. This might be true either because of loss of DHT activity on nervous tissue, or because of possible loss of non-AR-mediated effects of androstanediol, a DHT metabolite, or an indirect effect not occurring in muscle tissue itself. DHT itself is not an effective anabolic for muscle tissue.
If one chooses to use Proscar to minimize risk of hair loss, I would suggest topical use to the scalp, or if used orally, certainly not in excess of the recommended dose for medically-indicated use.

If you are on testosterone, anti-DHT Proscar � can reduce the side effects of this hormone a little. As DHT contributes to testicular atrophy, Proscar while on steroids can be of some use. Do not expect too much though. You can start with one pill (5 mg) a day for 3 to 5 days, then you can take one every third day.

winstrol is not a precursor of DHT, but is itself a potent agonist of the AR in skin and scalp.

Deca. Or with other steroids (actually, even with Deca for that matter) you could use topical spironolactone (available from http://www.minoxidil.com/). Among its other properties as an anti-androgen, spironolactone is a potent competitive inhibitor of DHT at its receptor sites[21]. Therefore, spironolactone effectively prevents DHT from attaching to the receptor sites on the hair follicles[22]. As a result, the follicles no longer atrophy and can mature again to their normal size. And it does so without decreasing the circulating levels of DHT in the body. By comparison, finasteride inhibits the formation of DHT, causing troublesome side effects in many patients.

perhaps the most effective hair growth drug currently available is called XANDROX 12.5%. It is a lotion that contains 12.5% micronized minoxidil and 5% azelaic acid. Its base is water-soluble and absorbs into the skin. It also contains an effective transdermal absorption enhancer. Because the concentration of minoxidil is so high in this new lotion, it is suggested that no more than one mL of it be applied daily. It is formulated to be used as a supplement to the Xandrox 5% solutions, which were made available seven months ago from Regrowth.
XANDROX 12.5% is designed to fill the void and treat those stubborn areas of the scalp, which may not be responding adequately to other therapies. These areas often include the temples, frontal hairline or, in some cases, the vertex and crown. Because minoxidil is dose dependent, XANDROX 12.5% is specifically beneficial in these areas.
The results of combining the hair growth properties of minoxidil with the ability of azelaic acid to inhibit virtually all dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in the scalp have proven to be extremely effective in halting and reversing MPB for the vast majority of patients. Nighttime and daytime Xandrox 5% solutions are available with and without 0.025% retinoic acid, respectively. Xandrox 12.5% lotion incorporates an absorption enhancer and does not contain Retin-A or betamethasone valerate. 30-mL bottles cost $27.86 and are fitted with a pump dispenser.

GYNO:

Nolvadex does not block any of the gear receptor sites, so it does not make any gear less effective. A lot of people believe it does simply because when they use a high androgenic compound (ie. testosterone), they lose a few pounds of weight and some strength (a bloated muscle/joint is stronger). This is simply because Nolvadex blocks the estrogen receptor sites, so you don't hold as much water (estrogen causes water retention). However, the gear that you are taking is still working the same at building muscle.

one may use novla at 20mg a day throughout not only to stop gyno but to also stop water retention and therefore keep looking hard. it's a top dieting drug to for the above reason, and there are alot of female pros out there who cant get cuts in the lower body unless they take novladex. Use it also when u finish the cycle to retard the esyrogen backlash and to help stop fat accumulating. When people say they gain less while using novladex its only coz their not holding as much water.

From the standpoint of the bodybuilder using anabolic/androgenic steroids (AAS), if nothing is done about the situation, high estrogen levels can cause gynecomastia, will inhibit natural testosterone production, and will cause bloating. High estrogen levels also make it more difficult to lose fat, and tend to cause female pattern fat distribution even in males.

Though most bodybuilders feel they know which steroids aromatize and which do not, sometimes the beliefs are in error. This is because progestogenic activity (activity like that of progesterone, another female hormone) is easily mistaken for estrogenic activity. Both hormones can cause bloating, and both can cause gyno. So AAS which are capable of activating not only the androgen receptor but also the progesterone receptor are often mistakenly assumed to aromatize. (Note: these androgens do not "convert to progesterone" but rather are themselves, without any change needed, able to act on that receptor.)

Nandrolone is proven to be a progestin. This fact is of clear importance in bodybuilding, because while moderate Deca-only use actually lowers estrogen levels as a consequence of reducing natural testosterone levels and thus allowing the aromatase enzyme less substrate to work with, Deca nonetheless can cause gyno in some individuals. Furthermore, just as progesterone will to a point increase sex drive in women, and then often decrease it as levels get too high, high levels of progestogenic steroids can kill sex drive in male bodybuilders, though there is a great deal of individual variability as to what is too much.

Incidentally, this progestogenic activity also inhibits LH production, and contrary to common belief, even small amounts of Deca are quite inhibitory, approximately as much so as the same amount of testosterone.

Methenolone (Primobolan), stanozolol (Winstrol), dromostanolone (Masteron), oxandrolone (Anavar), mesterolone (Proviron), stenbolone (Anatrofin), trenbolone, and DHT do not aromatize, and thus, antiestrogens are not relevant to these AAS either.

The steroids where aromatization is of particular concern are testosterone, methandrostenolone (Dianabol), boldenone (Equipoise), and to some extent fluoxymesterone (Halotestin). However the latter is usually used in doses low enough that aromatization is not an issue.

Aromatase inhibitors

The most commonly used aromatase inhibitor in bodybuilding is aminoglutethimide (Cytadren). This drug also inhibits an enzyme (desmolase) necessary for synthesis of cortisol, but fortunately, aromatase can be inhibited with levels of drug that cause only limited inhibition of desmolase.

Anastrozole (Arimidex) is a superior aromatase inhibitor. It is, however, very expensive. With moderate doses of testosterone it seems that 1 mg/day is sufficient, and some have claimed half a tab to be sufficient.

Receptor blockers

Clomiphene (Clomid) and tamoxifen (Nolvadex) are the most popular drugs of this class. They are more precisely referred to as "selective estrogen receptor modulators." This is because their mode of action is not so simple as merely blocking the estrogen receptor. Estrogen receptors require not only hormone but also activation of regions of the receptor called AF-1 and AF-2. AF-1, to be activated, requires phosphorylation, while AF-2 can be activated by any of a number of cofactors, such as IGF-1.

As it happens, clomiphene and tamoxifen are estrogen receptor antagonists (blockers) in cells that depend on activation of the AF-2 region, while in cells which activate AF-1, these compounds are estrogens.

In some cells these drugs activate one of the types of estrogen receptor (ERa ) but are antagonists of the other type (ERb ).

The result is that these compounds are antiestrogenic in breast tissue, fat tissue, and in the hypothalamus, which is what we want in bodybuilding, but are estrogenic in bone tissue and with respect to favorable effect on blood lipid profile, both of which are, again, desirable. They also appear to have some estrogenic effect on mood, though this may be in only parts of the brain (the matter is not studied.)

Cyclofenil is a similar drug to the above two. Clomiphene will do everything that the other two will do, but for some unknown reason, has been found more effective than tamoxifen both medically and in bodybuilding for increasing LH production.

Raloxifene (Evista) is a new selective estrogen receptor modulator that, for women, has the advantage of being an antiestrogen in the uterus, whereas clomiphene and tamoxifen are estrogens in that tissue. For this reason, the latter two drugs can promote uterine cancer, while raloxifene actually should help prevent it, and is therefore a superior drug for women. It is not known how effective it may be in increasing LH production.

A small percentage of individuals suffer vision problems from use of clomiphene, which is generally reversible upon discontinuance. These persons, of course, should not use the drug after discovering the problem.

Steroids which aromatize (testosterone and Dianabol, for example) produce estrogen and lead to estrogenic side effects which non-aromatizing steroids (Winstrol and Primo, for example) do not. These effects include estrogenic bloating and estrogenic gyno.

Steroids which have progestogenic activity (Deca and Nilevar, for example, and, I expect, Anadrol) cause progestogenic side effects which other steroids do not. These include progestogenic bloating, progestogenic bloating, and can include loss of sex drive, though moderate levels of progestogenic activity can increase sex drive. Winstrol seems to reduce these progestogenic side effects substantially, if used at 50 mg/day.

in relation to the above:

When one begins administering T at 250-500mg per week, endogenous T production begins to shut down and there is very little noticeable muscle mass gains (most weight gain is water at this point). However, as T dosages reach 1000mg per week, muscle gains are maximized. As one increases the dose over 1000mg T per week, more aromatization (conversion to estrogen) occurs and quantitatively less T is available for muscle building. Likewise, if one adds an anti-aromatase such as Arimidex to the mix, less estrogen is produced but more dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is produced. DHT production (which can result in acne, hair loss, and prostate enlargement) has very little direct anabolic properties, therefore, we are back to the same empirical conclusion-- 1000mg T per week maximizes muscle gains while minimizing estrogen and DHT production-- the two hormones responsible for testosterone-induced side effects.

please criticize the above info if you feel any of it in error. otherwise i hope it is useful to you all. sorry it is so long but i felt all those concerned about these issues would want to read it.

peace,
msg

posted May 28, 2000 07:45 PM            

It's not clear to which compound you are referring, but from the context it would appear you are referring to Proscar (finasteride). If so then the statement is not correct. Finasteride is not an agonist of AR receptors. It is an inhibitor of 5-a-reductase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT.

Finasteride is also known by the trade name Propecia.

posted May 28, 2000 08:52 PM            

so basically im still confused about taking clomid eod during my cycle of eq/primo/winny!
i diddent think i would need it at all, but your research shows that there may be a chance of aromatization with the eq and deff not with the primo and winny which i allready knew, so at 300-400mgs of eq is clomid ness? eod during or just post cycle?

what do you think?

great info .....

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****"What we do in life, echoes an eternity!"**** GLADIATOR

posted May 28, 2000 11:53 PM            

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"Fate is just what you call it when you dont know the name of the person that is screwing you over" poppa smurf

posted May 29, 2000 04:27 PM            

Back up top....

Matt

posted May 31, 2000 11:44 AM            

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Gigante'

posted May 31, 2000 12:25 PM            

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SIZE MATTERS

posted May 31, 2000 12:48 PM            

BUMPY

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-bighonduran

"tank tops are for medium sized guys..."

posted May 31, 2000 04:58 PM            

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God didn't create all men equal. Steroids corrects God's mistakes.