posted May 20, 2000 11:40 AM            

The difference is that some people see no results except bloat, hair loss, and zits from the fully doesed T200 while others make excelent gains on the ICN at half the doseage with very little side effects.

Why? Because of something called STEREOCHEMISTRY.

Stereochemistry refers to chemisty in three dimensions. Two testosterone molecules can have the same exact number of atoms that are connected in the same order in two dimensions(like if you draw it on paper) BUT may differ because the arrangement of their atoms in space(3d) is different.

So what does that mean? It means that most Mexican testosterone is not identical to human testosterone, and even the slightest difference will prevent that Mexican testosterone from acting the way it should inside a human body. Your gear can be fully doesed but there is no way of knowing the stereochemistry of the molecule. On the other side, European gear is produced with better methods and does resemble human testosterone so you see the results you should.

You heard it here first. PS, some people will respond better to Mexican steroids than others because everyone is different so its not the end of the world if you only have mex connections.

[This message has been edited by Milk_Man (edited May 20, 2000).]

posted May 20, 2000 01:08 PM            

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posted May 20, 2000 05:57 PM            

ON WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU BASE YOUR EVALUATION OF TESTOSTERONE PRODUCED IN MEXICO?

ON WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU BASE YOU EVALUATION ON THE EFFECTS OF STEREOISOMER BINDING AND AR ACTIVATION?

TESTOSTERONE IS TESTOSTERONE THERE IS NO VARIANCE BETWEEN TESTOSTERONE PRODUCED FOR USE IN ANIMALS V. THAT FOR USE IN HUMANS, IT IS THE SAME- YES THERE IS THE POTENTIAL FOR DIFFERING ISOMERS-
I WOULD HOWEVER LIKE TO KNOW HOW YOU KNOW THAT

A. HUMANS DO NOT THEMSELVES PRODUCE DIFFERENT ISOMERS OF TESOSTERONE?

B. THAT DIFFERING ISOMERS EFFECTS THE ACTIVITY OF THE MOLECULE?

C. THAT THE PRODUCTION METHODS IN EUROPE HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THE PERCENTAGES OF DIFFERENT ISOMERS PRODUCED IN THE SYNTHESIS OF TESOSTERONE?

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MP

posted May 20, 2000 07:17 PM            

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MP

posted May 20, 2000 07:53 PM            

ORGANIC CHEMISTRY IS NOT MY FIELD OF SPECIALTY, HOWEVER I AM PRETTY SURE THAT JUST BECAUSE AN ISOMER IS POSSIBLE TO CREATE ON PAPER/COMPUTER DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT CAN EXIST IN NATURE. BUT THEN AGAIN O-CHEM IS NOT MY SPECIALTY.

AS TO THE ANECDOTAL RESULTS- ARE YOU CLOSE TO MEXICO? BECAUSE THE FURTHER AWAY YOU GET THE MORE LIKELY TO BE FAKES. DUE TO MY LOCATION- I KNOW, SEE AND TALK TO LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO USE GEAR BOTH MEXICAN AND EUROPEAN- AS WELL AS QUITE A BIT OF ASIAN AND AUSTRALIAN PRODUCTS RECENTLY. I AM NOT QUESTIONING YOUR OBSERVATIONS, MERELY TRYING TO SAY THAT MY OBSERVATIONS HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT.

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MP

posted May 20, 2000 08:12 PM            

. Although many stereoisomers of this nucleus are possible (and may be synthesized), the saturated nuclear structures of most classes of natural steroids are alike, except at the junction of rings A and B. Simplified three-dimensional diagrams may be used to illustrate stereochemical details. For example, androstane, common to a number of natural and synthetic steroids, exists in two forms (2 and 3), in which the A/B ring fusions are called cis and trans, respectively.

However, other stereoisomers are possible.

Texsamm
are you sure it was not fake?
have you taken other enanthate esters and not gotten results?
just curious

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MP

posted May 21, 2000 12:55 AM         

1. The process for the synthesis of testosterone is archaic. To screw it up would be doubtful for a company that specializes in it's manufacture. This is essentially on par with screwing up the synthesis of aspirin.

2. The more likely scenario is underdosing. Why not sell products that contain little or none of the active ingredients claimed? You make all profit since essentially you now have very little costs.

"What I do have is real world results that demonstrate what I have said. You can't beat something like that no matter how many medline abstracts you throw out. Let me say it again, REAL WORLD RESULTS is what works not some bs abstract."

posted May 21, 2000 07:55 AM            

So you are saying that in the synth process of testosterone only achiral compounds are used? If so you should know that every step of that synthisis can produce a racemic mixture-I don't know if it does or not personally but if you could explain it to me that would be great.

For all I know the end result is 10% human testosterone and 90% garbage. Thats how I explain no results from a 196mg/ml tested T200 product that produced NO (good)RESULTS and a high qualitly European product that does produce muscle gain, keeping everything else relativly constant.

Do you have a better theory for that? Now you can hide in your medline abstracts that contradict themselfs but I think I will stick to the real world.

posted May 21, 2000 12:32 PM         

First, from the Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology (3rd Edition, vol. 12), there is a huge chapter on the synthesis of all the various steroids (sex hormones and adrenal), which gives the various syntheses of the androgens. It states that "The two most important routes to testosterone use diosgenin or androstenedione." Then it states that "All of the above procedures give excellent yields of testosterone."

Second, looking in Merck for stereoisomers of testosterone, I do not find any mentioned. Testosterone is called 17B-hydroxy-4-androsten-3-one, thus I can assume that there can be a 17a-stereoisomer, but none is listed. Looking at estradiol, I do find a 17a and B listed.

Finally, you state:
"For all I know the end result is 10% human testosterone and 90% garbage. Thats how I explain no results from a 196mg/ml tested T200 product that produced NO (good)RESULTS and a high qualitly European product that does produce muscle gain, keeping everything else relativly constant."