posted May 06, 2000 03:10 AM         

nor products; juice or pro-h products do not raise testosterone. 19 nor products are missing a carbon group at the 19h podsition on the A ring. hence nor = not testosterone. The 17-beta hydroxy steroid dehydrogenase enzyme (or 3-BHD) in the liver converts nor prohormones to nor testosterone. (juice is already nor-testosteone)The fitness bimbo would know this if she ever read a biochemistry text ( can she spell biochemistry??)

This change in the molecule prevents direct aromatization to estrogen although other nor metabolities can under go an organic cascade effect and be converted to estrogen

nor products also convert to DHN, not DHT. Anti-aromatases won't help since the aromatase enzyme is not involved, but a REAL anti-estrogen can help (think Clomid)
19 nor products are less anabolic then T or T based derivatives but they have a greater affinity for steroid receptors and can be detected up to 18 months.

They may also increase progesterone levels so fat gain and bloating may occur

The best pro-h nor products are the BHP cyclodextrins by ergo-pharm, but you need 300 + mg/day also nor products can lower endogenous T so watch the cycle length and time of day. Stick to the diols and avoid diones!

Good luck! if you make good gains post the stack and the results.

Supreme (brains; brawn and a warped sense of humor!)

posted May 06, 2000 03:33 AM            

You cant flame people for trying to help...fitness chick has proven she knows alot of whats going on....but you do have an informative post.

Later,
WCP

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"Man doth not yeild himself unto the Angels, nor unto Death utterly......save only through the weakness of his feeble will"
--Joseph Glanvill

posted May 06, 2000 04:09 AM         

At a gram a day I would definately be taking 50-100mg of Clomid it would keep my boys pumping out T and block gyno. Stay away from Tamoxifen, it screws Igf-1 production.

Later!

Supreme

"If my grandmother had wheels, she would be a wagon" - Montgomery Scott

posted May 06, 2000 05:43 AM            

1. nandrolone is converted to di-hydro-nandralone via the activity of 5a reductase, the same enzyme that reduces testosterone to dht.

2. nandrolone and its metabolites do not convert to estrogen-EVER. the so called "estrogenic" effects of nandrolone are a result of nandrolones ability to bind and activate progesterone receptors.

3. anti-estorgen will have little or no effect on nandrolone's progestenic activity.

4. it is very astute of you to repeat something that you read in magazine, however the person who wrote whatever article you are basing your facts on was mistaken as well.

5. last, but no least, beta-cyclodextrin technology is very interesting but the because of differing isomers many products are less effective than they claim to be- even then they are limited by your body's abilty to produce the two dehydrogenase enzymes neccesarry to convert them. it is unclear whether the -diols are even converted- it has been surmised that they exert a direct anabolic effect without conversion.

judge not lest ye be judged,
besides the world of pro-hormones is less well explored than that of traditional anabolics and with AS even so called experts make mistakes about their activity and hormonal properties.

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MP

posted May 06, 2000 08:40 AM            

Androgen and 19-norsteroid profiles in human preovulatory follicles from stimulated cycles; an isotope dilution--mass specrometric study.
Dehennin L, Jondet M, Scholler R
J Steroid Biochem 1987 Mar; 26(3): 399-405

This probably poses no practical problems for BBers; if it did, I'm sure a lot of us would have noticed by now.

posted May 06, 2000 12:37 PM         

2 It could be that the text and my colleagues are outdated about nandrolone metabolite conversion. I'll stop at the library and re-check my info.

3 You are correct about the progestin conversion; I just didn't mention it and I should have.

4 I don't really read magazines, science journals and texts yes.(one exception- Sports illustrated)

5. It is true that diols probably do not undergo conversion and are anabolic on their own- but no one is 100% sure

6. anti-estrogens won't effect progesterone receptors, but clomid will stiumalate the pituitary and increase LH to help keep T levels up

7. Just because I haven't been here for a while dosen't mean I'm a newbie. I was here long ago, before moderators, back when the board would always crash and most threads were inane flames between people whose parents must have been siblings. Not sure if I'll stay this time

Supreme "After all possibilities have been exhausted, what ever remains no matter how improbable or impossible must be the truth" A. Conan Doyle

posted May 06, 2000 04:56 PM            

I (and probably most readers on the board) appreciate the your input as much as we appreciate Macro's responses.

However, if FitnessChick was wrong, you can say that without flaming her. Anyway I hope you do post more on the board.....just because someone disagress with you doesn't mean you should stop sharing your knowledge.

Later

posted May 06, 2000 07:23 PM            

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lift eat grow!!!