ditto to all of the above, and to say again 50 grams in 3 hours is the average that can be absorbs even at your size. I'm 5'5" 160 and probably can only absorb 40 grams every 3 hours.

I understand the hunger you have, surround yourself with a lot of good clean complex carbs and clean protein.

I get the same cravings, crazy, not for sweets or candy or soda

but for turkey or tuna or a metrix bar.

Here is today so far:

6:15am
12-egg whites
1 cup oatmeal with skim milk
1 TBSP flax oil

8:30am
1 6 oz chicken breast
1/4 lb ground sirloin
1 sweet potato
1 regular potato
1 cup oatmeal with water

11:00am
2 MET-TX shakes
1 TBSP nat. peanut butter

1:00pm
2 chicken breasts
1/2 lb. ground sirloin
1 sweet potato
1 regular potato
1/2 bag frozen mixed veggies

3:00 pm
2-MET-RX shakes

If you start shitting like a goose, you'll know that it's too much. Start off with like 80 grams, then after a week up it to 100 grams, then after another week go up to 120 grams, etc.
This will give your body a chance to get used to all that protein. My philosiphy is the more the better with protein, as long as you can digest it.

I know some will argue, but there have actually been studies that show that even one huge serving of protein and then regular amounts throughout the rest of the day will increase your nitrogen retention tremendously.

Sorry for the sarcasim, but I'm using it to emphasise my point that there's not set limit.

As far as how much protein should be consumed per meal and how much can be consumed:
Lets say I weigh 200lbs.
1)Not on AS= 1-1.5g per day should be sufficient. This IS backed by reasearch:
A study was done by Dr. Lemon et al. where athletes were given specific amounts of protein per bodyweight per day. The bodyweights varied. The goal of the study was to produce a min. amount of protein that is needed to fight catabolism. The study proved that those athletes who consumed less than .7g of protein per pound of bodyweight did not loose muscle mass (exact details of this experiment can be provided to you if you want). That .7g/lb must be reached to avoid catabolism of EXISTING muscle. Therefore one must consume at least 1-1.5g/lb/day (depending on individual metabolisms) in order to see any benefit of added muscle.
No one knows how much protein one's body is capable of assimilating into protein. That area is still under reasearch. But you can be sure that you are playing a totally different ballgame if you are on gear.
I would suggest that one consume 1.5-3g/lb/day at least to take advantage of the anabolic environment. The reason I say this is because hormones tell the body to make muscle. They tell the body to heal and they tell it to make that muscle stronger than it was. The way I see it, if you are injecting twice the normal amount of these anabolic hormones, your body may utalize twice the amount of protein. If you are injecting 6x the amount... I believe that the normal test level in the body is about 200mg (again, this may not be exact). If this is the case, 400mg injections may allow twice the protein utilization. This is just my hypothesis. If correct, you could handle more protein with higher doses of gear. There in itself may lie the key to the effects of higher doses of anabolics. You may not be utilizing the all the protein in your diet on lower doses.

Here's some research I'd like to do if I were a biological reasearch scientist (stay with me on this):
If you gave 10 individuals 600g of protein and 200mg of test, how much protein would they utalize (found by measuring nitrogen content in urine).
If you gave the same 10 individuals 200g of protein and 600g of test, would they utalize more...
If you gave the 10 600g of protein and 1000g of test would they utalize more than the latter...
Ok, what if you gave this 10 600g of protein and 1500mg of test and these individuals had no more protein utalization than those that got 1000mg of test?
* If you then gave the 10 individuals 800g of protein and 1500mg of test and they did indeed show greater protein utilization than they did with 600, this would prove that protein utalization is a direct function of the amount of test that you inject.

In other words, those injecting 500mg of Sust. maybe could benefit from 3g/lb while those of 250mg of Sust. may not see more benefit.
If this trend was analyized, we could have a set amount of protein intake per mg of AS per bodyweight per person per day. It would not be that difficult. But hey, who wants to help us out...

Here's the way I see the amount of protein required per meal. If not on AS 1.5g/lb of a 200lb person would be 300g. At 6 meals per day, that would be 50g/meal.
If one of the group of 10 was on 1000mg of test and reaped benefits of 3g/lb of protein, that would be 600g per day or 100g per meal.
If that person weighed 300lbs, that would be 900g of protein per lb at 3g/lb or 150g of protein in one meal. Now, if this person was seeing greater benefits from 3g/lb than he was from 2.88g/lb, this would prove that the amount of protein consumed at one time was irrelevant. On the contrary, it would prove that the speed of absorbtion was the key in determining how many grams of protein could be consumed per meal, thus a solid food meal containing 100g of protein would take too long for all the protein contained therein to be absorbed through the intestional pores whereas a liquid protein such as a shake which would not need such an extent of digestion before it could be absorbed, would more redially pass through the intestional pores and absorbtion of 100g would be no problem. However, enzymatic activity would definately play a key role in the uptake of the protein.

If diarrhea is a problem, then drink more water to help in the absorption.

Also, figuring that most of the people here are using some form of anabolic, you would be a complete moron to believe that you could only digest 50 grams of protein for a meal.

1) determine the total calorie you eat per day.
2) determine what percent of each nutrients you take (ie. 40% carbs 30% protein 30% fat)
3) factor out 1 & 2, and then divide by the amount of meals you eat per day.

I agree with the latter statements in regards to having the ability to take in and absorb larger than 50 grams of protein per sitting.

M18

Guys, dont get Stew going. He is about as intellegent as Huck, but with an attitude!

Get em Stew!

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"That which does not kill me, will make me stronger."

quote:

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Originally posted by winstrol69:
aim for 54.425423543 grams a meal

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"despite the beliefs of many coaches , trainers and athletes, there is probably no benefit from eating excessive amounts of protein. Increasing the protein intake by more than times the recommended level does not enhance work capacity during intensive training.(C.Bouchard etal 1994)

For athletes, muscle mass is NOT increased simpy by eating high-protein foods. If all of the excess protein intake of the typical athlete were used exclusively for lean tissue synthesis , then the muscle mass would increase tremendously. For example, consuming an extra 100g of protein daily would translate into 500g daily increase in muscle mass. This obviously does not happen. Additional calories in the form of protein are, after deamination (nitrogen removal), used directly for energy or recycled as components of other molecules including lipids that are stored in the subcutaneous depots.

Excessive dietary protein can be harmful because the breakdown of large quantities of this nutrient produces undesirable quantites of urea and other compounds that may strain liver and kidney function."
- Mcardle et al 1996

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Other foods can inhibit the absorbtion of protein. If you eat protein within a meal, you have fat, carbs, and protein being absorbed through the small intestinal linning. Once these foods reach the large intestine, absorbtion of macromolecules ceases. The foods that are eaten along with the protein will be the ultimate factor determining how much of the protein that is in that food will pass through the intestinal linning before it hits the colon (large intestine). Liquid proteins would be absorbed faster because they require less digestion before they can pass through the small pores in the intestinal walls.

Solid foods must pass through many feet of the intestine while undergoing digestion the whole way until they are finally digested enough to pass through.

Picture a piece of cheese sliding down a cheese grader. The block of cheese is too big to pass through the cheese grader's pores. As the cheese block passes along, it is digested by the sharp edges until eventually only a very small block of cheese is left. That small block of cheese is protein that didn't get absorbed.
The small intestine is virtually a long cheese grader. The intestines push the food along as digestive fluids and autonomic muscular contraction breaks down the large food particles into smaller and smaller particles until they are small enough to pass through the intestinal pores and enter the blood stream. The food that is left and isn't digested enough to enter the intestinal pores = that block of cheese at the end of the long grader.

Now picture pouring milk down that cheese grader. That is the equalivalent of partially digested protein. The more digested the proteins, you can imagine the thinner the liquid that is pored down the cheese grader. It doesn't have to go a long distance down the cheese grader (intestine) before its particles are small enough to pass through the intestinal pores (the grader's holes). Since its absorbtion begins as soon as it enters the intestine, you will find an extremely small lump of cheese (or lump of waste) at the end of it.
Protein in liquid form doesn't need to be broken down as much as much as a solid food. So you will find almost no solid food at the end of the tunnel (the large intestine). Amino acids would be absorbed extremely fast and would need virtually no digestion. They simply enter the intestine and pass into the blood stream. Partially digested proteins (peptides) have an absorbtion rate that lies in between that of amino acids and the protein.

Keep in mind, unless you have plenty of money to waste, buying amino acids for a protein supplement aren't economically efficient. You are paying a lab to do what you body is going to do anyway to an extent.

The digestability rating of a protein basically tells how hard the body will have to work to separate the proteins during digestion and the ease of down grading them into amino acids so they may pass through the intestinal lining.

Lets say that you weigh 150.
And you are working out and trying to put on some muscle.

You want to weigh 180lbs. Thirty lbs of muscle is equalivant to 12,750g. Let's say that 75% of that muscle's weight is protien. That would make the muscle that you want to gain contain 9,560g of amino acids (protien). You will need to consume at least 9560g of protein for that muscle. If you are going to put on 30lbs in 5 months, that would mean you consuming 63.75g of extra protein per day to gain that EXTRA muscle.

That is considering that all protein that you eat will be digested. The average digestability of protein is about 80%. That means we loose 20% making us need at least 76.5g of extra protein for that muscle.
Some of that protein is expended, unwound, and denatured therefore it's amino acids are unusable to the body. Some of the protein will not be broken down enough in time for it to be absorbed by the small intestine before it is passed on to the colon (where absorbtion of macronutrients stops). That's probably going to be at least 30%.
Now that leaves us needing 100g of EXTRA protein to support the additional muscle that you are seeking. Well some of that protein will also be burned as energy. Depending on the level of aerobic activity your body may burn up to 25% of those grams of protein as energy. Leaving us needing 120g.

Of that 125g of extra protein, not all of it will be allocated into muscle. Some will be needed to compose enzymes, some for immune function, some for reconstruction of skin, and various cellular repairs. At 140lbs, and low bodyfat, you are probably going to have to allocate 50% of your protein into intracellular maintenence and cellular repair due to natuarl aging of the tissues. Half of that protein intake will be taxed by tissue other than muscle.

So that means that we are going to have to consume at least twice as much to account for that leaving a defiency of 250g of protein.

Since you weigh 140lbs, 250/140=1.79g of protein per lb of body weight. I'd say that if you go below 2g per lb, you are shorting yourself. These figures will vary with individual metabolisms. Also, anabolics that increase nitrogen retention and encourage tissue growth will enable the individual to benefit from additional protein (2-4g/lb). If I were on a heavy cycle, I'd shoot for 3g/lb.

If you are planning on going on an extremely high protein diet, just remember this: A diet this high in protein can wreak havoc on your body. There has been lots of research to prove this (I would be happy to give refrences to the research if needed). It all started back in the 80's when some bodybuilder broke his collar bone while benchpressing. Broken bones from muscular contractions have been common in individuals that have elevated strength. It was very common arm wrestling matches for someone to get a broken elbow.

A study was done to find out why this happens. That bodybuilder with the broken collar bone was given an MRI. When they looked at the density of his bones, they found that he had the bone mass of a 70-80 year old woman! It was soon realized that high protein diets would cause bone disease.
Heres an explanation:

Have you ever heard the commercial for TUMS w/ calcium? Well TUMS works due to the buffering action of calcium carbonate on stomach acids.

The body also uses calcium carbonate as a buffer. Whenever the acidity of the blood increases, calcium carbonate is released. The storage site for calcium -the bones. In the same way that muscle is sacrificed for energy, bones are sacrificed for their calcium to buffer the acidity of the blood. Bone catabolism. This is especially prevalent with aging women leading to osteoperosis.

When ever protein is used to build muscle, enzymes, immune support, etc., the amino ACIDS cause the reaction of increased blood acidity. The more protein that the body utilizes, the higher the acidity of the blood and the more calcium must be used to buffer.

This is not a minute and isolated event. In fact, reasearch has proven that milk contains so much protein that its calcium content is not sufficient to offset the resulting blood acidity, thus the bones will still have to give up some calcium. Milk does not build strong bones! This effect is also due to the fact that calcium from milk has a low bioavailability.

Refrences:
Koop.E., The Surgeon General's Report. Wash.Pub. No. 88-50210. 1988
McDougall, J, M.D., Diet for a New America 1992
Kaplan S, M.D. Diet for a New America, Chapter 4, 1991
Erasmus, U. Ibid.
Barnard, N. M.D., Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Conference 1995.
Should Humans Drink Milk? Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Guide to Healthy Eating, Nov.-Dec. 1990, pp10
Alan Lamm, "Kinesiology," Homeopath, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.

The key is, make sure that you take a calcium supplement with additional protein consumption. Those on AS should definately take a calcium supplement to prevent catabilism of the bones.

The nitrogen that is released from the amino acids also posses a problem. Amonia's chemical formula is NH2. Water is H20. When you take the N from amino acids and combine it with H2 from water, you get amonia. This amonia can destroy your kidneys. That's why it is imperitive that you drink at least one gallon of water per day if you are on AS.

Is there anything else you would like for me to tell you about protein?

quote:

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Originally posted by Munzer:
So basically what you're saying is if a guy is taking in 500 gm protein/day for example, he would have to eat 10 times a day at 50gms per meal? If he ate every 2 1/2 hours , it would take 25 hours or just a little over a day to consume 500 gms protein.
I don't know about you ,but that just doesn't
sound right .I don't think anybody gets up all through the middle of the night to eat.
But a hell of a lot of BB's eat 500 and more
gms/day . I'd like to see proof that the body
can only use 50 gms per meal. Common horse
sense tells me that statement is full of
bullshit.
Later Munzer

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Since I drink about 2 gallons of water per day I have to pee a lot, sometimes 3 times per night, if I can make it to the kitchen I will make another met-rx or something around 3 am.

The rest is still under development.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stew Meat:
How much do I eat?
That is a very complicated question.
I'd rather not answer it on this board. Email me and I'll send you a couple chapters from my book, Physiological Bodybuilding.
Cptr:
2 Advanced Dieting
5 Carbohydrates
6 Insulin (not completed)
7 Protein
8 Fat
12 Shock Techniques

The rest is still under development.

-Stew

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Stew...YGM