For the normal bodybuilder looking to put on nice strength gains and LBM, 200mg to 750mg should be sufficient. Shit, at 300mgs of test you are 6 times above normal testosterone levels. Above the 800 level estrogenic side effects become more pronounced, outweighing any new muscle that is possibly gained. If your looking for greater bulk it would be better to add an oral like D-bol. If you are looking for quality and definition to the physique add some Deca.

And when you come off 1000-1500mgs of test you lose half your gains and most of it was water anyways!! So what's the point?

------------------
"Adding the new Nitro-Tech bar to your diet may allow you to turn your physique into a
mountain of shredded mass."

How much exogenous testosterone do I (at 220 lbs., 5' 10'') require per week to maximize my gains and obviously minimize my side effects?

Mike

ANSWER: Mike, I get asked this question time and time again and its a hard one to answer but I will give you my best guess based on years of empirical data observing and noting how other bodybuilders respond to varying dosages of testosterone (T). It is my experience that 1000 mg (1 gram) of testosterone (T) per week (taken in divided doses every other day) provides an adequate stimulus for muscle growth. Since testosterone is a man's primary muscle-building hormone, it makes sense to utilize it to maximize muscle gains. When one begins administering T at 250-500mg per week, endogenous T production begins to shut down and there is very little noticeable muscle mass gains (most weight gain is water at this point). However, as T dosages reach 1000mg per week, muscle gains are maximized. As one increases the dose over 1000mg T per week, more aromatization (conversion to estrogen) occurs and quantitatively less T is available for muscle building. Likewise, if one adds an anti-aromatase such as Arimidex to the mix, less estrogen is produced but more dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is produced. DHT production (which can result in acne, hair loss, and prostate enlargement) has very little direct anabolic properties, therefore, we are back to the same empirical conclusion-- 1000mg T per week maximizes muscle gains while minimizing estrogen and DHT production-- the two hormones responsible for testosterone-induced side effects.

My Commentary

I have heard many people argue that 1 gram is the minimum dose an experienced user should use. I have never used that much but probably will in the near future since almost all of the side effects of test can be avoided. The way I see it, it is better to load up on test since it doesn't have extreme side effects at higher doses and use less of other roids like deca, dbol and drol which seem to have worse side effects at higher doses. This is assuming of course that you have done a few cycles. I wouldn't recommend a first timer to use a gram even though many well respected people say to start out with a gram.

giantset

What I'm trying to say is a 175lb guy can do 300-400mgs a test a week and get 8 pounds of LBM (183lbs) and keep it or do 1500mgs of test a week and gain 15-20 of mostly water. Then you end up losing 5-10 pounds of it anyways and your back around 190 but in the end you look like a bloated pig.

If you are 170 lean, you will look bigger than if you were 190 and bloated.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugh Gellatts:
"I have heard many people argue that 1 gram is the minimum dose an experienced user should use. I have never used that much but probably will in the near future since almost all of the side effects of test can be avoided. The way I see it, it is better to load up on test since it doesn't have extreme side effects at higher doses and use less of other roids like deca, dbol and drol which seem to have worse side effects at higher doses."

Amen! With armidex and proscar I didn't really get any sides on a gram.

---

Ya but you still end up looking all bloated and you lose half your gains anyways, so what's the point of crazy dosages!!

Of course if you are just looking to be as massive as possible then 1,500 mgs of test would be optimal given you use arimidex to combat estrogenic side effects.

I am trying 300mg deca/week for now with dbol to get me started for 4 weeks and fina to finish me off for 4 weeks. Will keep you posted.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ulter:
God Bless Dave. I don't agree with all he says, in fact sometimes he is a blithering idiot. But that response is poetry. I wish people would just believe it. 2THICK

---

I would not take advice from someone who says DHT does not have anabolic properties. DHT has a stronger affinity to the androgen receptor than testosterone itself. When test converts to DHT, it becomes more anabolic. 1-3g will probably not provide a much higher degree of anabolism than 800mg/wk. But the risk of prostate cancer, liver cancer, jaundice, acne, HDL to LDL, high blood pressure, bone degeneration, edema, congestive heart failure, Peliosis hepatis, atherosclerosis, brain damage, infertility, gynecomastia, baldness, blood clots that can clog the heart or cause anurisims or stroke, and a shit load of other problems that one will not get from a normal 400-1000mg/wk dose. But hey, if all this is worth putting on 2 more lbs from your cycle (which is doubtful due to the bell shaped curve meaning that results decline sharply in a dose dependant manner after 800mg/wk) then, by all means, knock yourself out. Hey, inject 10g. You may put on 2.5 extra lbs from what you would with 800mg/wk.

So, I will then let you know how my experiences are in this matter.

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreakMonster:
Or unless you want to look like shit, "a big bloated water baby"

---

Perhaps you should look in to the benefits of anti estrogens and or diuretics. Just a thought.

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreakMonster:
If your looking for greater bulk it would be better to add an oral like D-bol. If you are looking for quality and definition to the physique add some Deca.

---

So dianabol does not cause water retention?

So test is not quality and deca is? Deca will give you more definition? Would not recommend adding a progestin in there. Eq perhaps.

Primary role of all steroids = increase in protein synthesis. Yes different aas work in different ways but the main one is protein synthesis.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The_Iron_Game:
Perhaps you should look in to the benefits of anti estrogens and or diuretics. Just a thought.

What you are saying is at 800mgs water retention is not a problem yet at 801mgs or above it becomes a major issue?

---

What I am saying is I don't see the point in doing 1000mg of test. Those extra 7-8 lbs you gain from doing 1000mg instead of 500mg are going to be lost anyways after your cycle so what's the point?

quote:

---

Originally posted by The_Iron_Game:
So dianabol does not cause water retention?

So test is not quality and deca is? Deca will give you more definition? Would not recommend adding a progestin in there. Eq perhaps.

Primary role of all steroids = increase in protein synthesis. Yes different aas work in different ways but the main one is protein synthesis.

Diet not drugs give you the results.

---

Yes of course dbol causes bloat. That's why I said it's better to use it in conjunction with the test for greater bulk.
I have gotten lean off of bionabol before.

I never said test was not quality and deca was!

Yes Deca will give you more definition than pumping an additional 500mg of test to the already 1000mg you are pumping in.
I don't think I have seen any of my friends on 1500mg of test that look lean.

You say you would recommend adding EQ instead of Deca. Why is that? They are basically the same compounds except that Eq. may be stronger and slightly more androgenic compound.

You lost me bro. You wrote "1-3g will probably not provide a much higher degree of anabolism than 800mg/wk. But the risk of..." and then later you wrote "a normal 400-1000mg/wk dose". So where do you stand on this? Is a gram lethal or normal? Will you grow the same on 400mg as 1000mg? Because the list of sides you wrote are only very slightly more possible on 1000mg than 400mg, and if you only gained 2 more pounds on 1000mg than you do on 400 you're doing something else wrong.

I did not get bloated at all (actually got really hard), and kept most of my gains. I was using prop though, so maybe it is different with other tests...haven't tried them yet.

I am going to reply to this later on tonight when I have some time.

But for the mean time deca and eq, although they both work in the same manner being strong anabolics and focusing on the ar, are very different steroids.

If you go to search and type in

deca + pr + progestin

and

eq + er + estrogen

you will find some useful facts.

Speak to you later on tonight buddy am about to go to the shops for some food.

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreakMonster:
Those extra 7-8 lbs you gain from doing 1000mg instead of 500mg are going to be lost anyways after your cycle so what's the point?

---

I still dont have time but just something to think about until I get back in. Let me just go way off just to show you some logic here.

Ok Person A who has never done a cycle decided to use 500mgs of test and nothing else.

Person B who is also in the same stages as person A decided he wants to grow and decided to use 1000mgs of test with nothing else.

Now take this into account. Steroids should only be used by bodybuilders (which most people on this board are) by people who have reached their natural limits not by the uneducated, lazy, can I get huge off of clen question asking individual. Now it is going to be much more difficult to grow past this point and 500mgs will not yield as good results as 1000mgs will. BTW the 7-8lbs figure cannot be labelled. Everyone is different and you cannot fairly say someone will only gain 7-8lbs extra on 1000mgs and you cannot say this extra weight is all going to be water.

Both person A & person B are using some magic solution which will give them only lbm gains with no water retention (also something that should not be recommended unless for competition purposes). Water retention up to a certain point is very beneficial but after this point begins to do more damage than good.

So lets just say no extra estrogen in the body with both person A and person B who is going to gain more?

Answer = Person B.

Why will he lose this extra 7-8lbs as you called it? He Wont, there is no water to lose.

Difference in sides between 500 mgs and 1000 mgs / wk = negligible and nothing that cant be repaired if damaged or protected against.

Peace

[This message has been edited by The_Iron_Game (edited April 07, 2001).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stew Meat:
Hey, inject 10g. You may put on 2.5 extra lbs from what you would with 800mg/wk.

-Stew

---

Stew you should no better than this, no flame intended but by far to date this has to be one of the most ignorant things I have read on this board.

800mgs/wk is all that is needed and if you use anything above this you will only gain under 2lbs extra? WTF

No beginners dont need to go above this, no amateurs dont need to go above 1000mgs. BUT do you think that proefessional bodybuilders and their coaches trainers or medical advisers are telling them to use more than this for a measily 2lbs in extra gains.

Come on buddy reality here not sci-fi.

Are you also telling me that person B is holding the same amount of water as person A?
How is this possible? How can someone look lean punching 1000mg of test compared to someone that is only doing 500mg given they both have clean diets.

Yes, person B is more likely to gain more weight but at what cost? I would guarantee that extra muscle that person B puts on will be nothing but water. I doubt those extra pounds would be solid muscle that he will keep on after his cycle.

GLP why you gained the same amount on 500mgs the first time round and 1000mgs the second time round? It is also very simple. Because you have already added considerable mass to your body. The more muscle you add the harder it is to add more. Without getting too scientific if you look at everyone doing this wouldnt 500mgs/wk for life mean you would get over 500lbs? No! Simple really.
Now if you used 500mgs second time around do you think you would have gained the same as first time round? No Way.

Peace

-TG[/B][/QUOTE]

quote:

---

Originally posted by giantset:
I got this off of the mesomorphosis site in the ask Dave Palumbo section.

How much exogenous testosterone do I (at 220 lbs., 5' 10'') require per week to maximize my gains and obviously minimize my side effects?

Mike

ANSWER: Mike, I get asked this question time and time again and its a hard one to answer but I will give you my best guess based on years of empirical data observing and noting how other bodybuilders respond to varying dosages of testosterone (T). It is my experience that 1000 mg (1 gram) of testosterone (T) per week (taken in divided doses every other day) provides an adequate stimulus for muscle growth. Since testosterone is a man's primary muscle-building hormone, it makes sense to utilize it to maximize muscle gains. When one begins administering T at 250-500mg per week, endogenous T production begins to shut down and there is very little noticeable muscle mass gains (most weight gain is water at this point). However, as T dosages reach 1000mg per week, muscle gains are maximized. As one increases the dose over 1000mg T per week, more aromatization (conversion to estrogen) occurs and quantitatively less T is available for muscle building. Likewise, if one adds an anti-aromatase such as Arimidex to the mix, less estrogen is produced but more dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is produced. DHT production (which can result in acne, hair loss, and prostate enlargement) has very little direct anabolic properties, therefore, we are back to the same empirical conclusion-- 1000mg T per week maximizes muscle gains while minimizing estrogen and DHT production-- the two hormones responsible for testosterone-induced side effects.

My Commentary

I have heard many people argue that 1 gram is the minimum dose an experienced user should use. I have never used that much but probably will in the near future since almost all of the side effects of test can be avoided. The way I see it, it is better to load up on test since it doesn't have extreme side effects at higher doses and use less of other roids like deca, dbol and drol which seem to have worse side effects at higher doses. This is assuming of course that you have done a few cycles. I wouldn't recommend a first timer to use a gram even though many well respected people say to start out with a gram.

giantset

[This message has been edited by giantset (edited April 05, 2001).]

---

HEY BRO, YES ITS TRUE 1 GRAM MAKES YOU BIGGER THAN 500MG OR 250MG, BUT 500MG WITH HARD WORK YIELDS GREAT MUSCLE BUILDING RESULTS, NOT JUST WATER. THAT ARTICLE IS A LITTLE BIASED.

------------------