Women, though they have a higher percentage of estrogen to testosterone (10:1) in circulation, can produce testosterone through the adrenal cortex. Men however, can not produce estrogen. They can only produce higher amounts of testosterone which converts (aromitises) into estrodiol due to the effects of aromitase enzymes. Whenever estrogen levels get low in men (estrogen is needed to maintain NUMEROUS cellular functions, to regulate metabolism, increase dendritic spinal branching in neurons, etc.), LH is released to stimulate the production testosterone by the testicles.

As most people know, clomid can also have an effect on semen levels as well as testosterone. Semen is made in the Sertoli cells of the testes and testosterone is made in the leydig cells. FSH stimulates the sertoli cells, LH stimulates the leydig cells.

FSH - FOLLICLE STIMULATING HORMONE
LH - LUTENIZING HORMONE

Clomid stimulates the production of FSH and LH which in turn generates more testosterone and semen in men, but in women, it stimulates the production of eggs, thus clomids primary use as a fertility drug.

In the presence of low androgens or estrogens, the pitutary will release lutenizing hormone(LH).LH then signals the leydig cells in the testicles to begin producing testosterone. But, just because there is no estrogen doesn't mean that the body will produce LH. The hypothalamus reads the levels of androgens in the blood. If the levels of androgens are normal, the release of LHRH (lutenizing hormone releasing hormone) will be blocked by the hypothalamus and therefore, this FEEDBACK MECHANISM will prevent the release of LH (regardless of the level of estrogen in the system). Hence the Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis (HPTA).

Clomid is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. The difference between clomid and nolvadex is in the selectivity. Nolvadex will bind to estrogen receptors throughout the body, while Clomid has an affinity for the receptors in the brain. Clomid stimulates L-H-R-H/LH production by binding to ESTROGEN receptors on the hypothalamus and pituitary, thus giving the illusion of a low presence of circulating estrogen.
CLOMID DOES NOT BIND ANDROGEN. It is in NO WAY ANABOLIC. Therefore,on a cycle of moderate to high amounts of ANDROGENS, clomid will have no effect whatsoever on endogenous testosterone production, as we are in a state of ANDROGENIC inhibition. Even if there is 0 nanagrams of estrogen present in the body, the presence of excess amounts of androgens will inhibit the release of LHRH. It's post cycle, when blood levels of androgens decreases, that clomid is able to hasten the body's natural testosterone production.

The presence of androgens, however, will NOT INHIBIT THE RELEASE OF FSH. FSH will not stimulate the leydig cells of the testicles to produce testosterone, however it will stimulate the Sertoli cells to produce sperm. This effect will increase the size of the testicles. People take clomid EOD throughout a cycle because they think that their testicles are producing testosterone if they are not shrinking and that they will not have a let down post cycle. Actually, the EXACT OPPOSITE will happen. As the liver metabolises (breaks down/destroys/deactivates) clomid, the body builds up a tolerance for it just as it does with any medication. Clomid will not be effective post cycle if it is taken throughout. Clomid also has negative effects such as depressed mood and can cause acne. Due to its selective binding affinities, clomid is not very effective as an antiestrogen. Nolvadex works much like clomid but it is not selective in which ER it binds to so it can make an effective antiestrogen. However, nolvadex has proven to lower IGF-1 levels in a manner not related to estrogen prevention. Armidex or Proviron are much better choices as they will actually prevent the aromitization of testosterone into estrogen.

HCG will stimulate the leydig cells directly by-passing the feedback loop of the hypothalamus. HCG is best used after a long cycle as a means of stimulating natural Testosterone production. The reason for this is that the surge of T (testosterone) from HCG will help to prevent any short term hormone shortage enabling you to keep your gains. Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) is more effective than HCG at the end of a cycle. It blocks estrogens at the hypothalamus. This reduces the negative feedback from high estrogen levels (estrogen is usually high at the end of a cycle) and allows for a resumption of natural T production. Clomid will not block the feedback that results from high androgen levels. HCG and Clomid work great together.

Here is an example of when to administer clomid therapy using EQ (Bolderone) as an example:
Takes 2-3 weeks before it is out of the system. It is pointless to start clomid until then and if you start it after then you will gave a one week period where you will have not enough hormone in your system to retain your gains as your test has not had a chance to come back nautrally.
Lets look at the last couple of weeks of an injection schedule of bolderone. I will use 400mg/week because I think that will be much better than 300. Keep in mind the life of bolderone is about 2 weeks. The first mondy is how much was injected to start with. The next injection days are days that have bolderone still present in the system plus the added injection from that day.
Most of what you know somes from what your have heard from other people who don't know what they are talking about. Most of the people here only regurgitate what they have heard others say. The following is not from "he-said-that-his-friend-said-that-someone-said-this-was-true" but was derived from scientific deductive reasoning based on research on esters and their substrate release.

(M1) represents what is left from MONDAY of the 1st WEEK
(F1) would be the friday from the first week.
Likewise, (M3) would be the amount still active from Week 3's Monday injection.

1st Week -Monday: 200mg
initial injection

1st Week -Friday: 355mg in blood stream
initial injection still present (155mg) plus another injection (200mg)

2nd Week -Monday: 470in blood stream
(M1)115mg
(F2)155mg
(M2)200

2nd Week Friday: 535mg in blood stream
(M1)65
(F1)115
(M2)155
(F2)200

3Monday..555mg
(M1)20
(F1)65
(M2)115
(F2)155
(M3)200

3rd Week -Friday: 555mg
(M1)0
(F1)20
(M2)65
(F2)115
(M3)155
(F3)200

4th Week -Monday 555mg
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)20
(F2)65
(M3)115
(F3)155
(M4)200

4th Week -Friday: 555mg
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)20
(M3)60
(F3)115
(M4)155
(F4)200

5th Week -Monday 555mg
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M3)20
(F3)65
(M4)115
(F4)155
(M5)200

5th Week -Friday 555
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M3)0
(F3)20
(M4)65
(F4)115
(M5)155
(F5)200

6th Week -Monday 555
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M3)0
(F3)0
(M4)20
(F4)65
(M5)115
(F5)155
(M6)200

6th Week -Friday

(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M3)0
(F3)0
(M4)0
(F4)20
(M5)65
(F5)115
(M6)155
(F6)200

OK... Do you see the trend? With bi-weekly injections of 200mg of the bolderone, you will reach a saturation zone of 555mg.

Now, we are going to stop all of our injections. No more injections... Watch what happens to hormone levels:

7th Week -Monday: 355mg
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M3)0
(F3)0
(M4)0
(F4)0
(M5)20
(F5)65
(M6)115
(F6)155
(M7)0

7th Week -Friday: 200mg present in the body which is plenty left to retain your gains however not enough to promote anabolism.
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M3)0
(F3)0
(M4)0
(F4)0
(M5)0
(F5)20
(M6)65
(F6)115
(M7)0
(F7)0

8th Week -Monday: 85mg in blood. This is just barely enough to deter catabolism. However it is still too much exogenous androgen to allow natural hormone production to resume.
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M3)0
(F3)0
(M4)0
(F4)0
(M5)0
(F5)0
(M6)20
(F6)65
(M7)0
(F7)0
(M8)0

8th Week -Friday: 20mg of Ex. Hormone in system! I would recomend that the Clomid be taken 300mg on day: Wednesday of week 8. then follow with 100mg per day for the following week till next Wednesday then drop the dose to 50mg. Also, on Wednesday, you should hit 2500iu of HCG and again on Fri or Saturday.
(M1)0
(F1)0
(M2)0
(F2)0
(M3)0
(F3)0
(M4)0
(F4)0
(M5)0
(F5)0
(M6)0
(F6)20
(M7)0
(F7)0
(M8)0
(F8)0

9th Week -Monday: Natural test level have probably resumed up to 75%. If you used HCG and Cyclofenil, they may be up to 100-110% functioning. The following 50mg EOD of clomid will help to make sure that the pituatary does't relapse and that in order for a steady stream of lutenizing hormone to be released for testicular stimulation.

If your cycle is longer, (and it should be, this was only for demonstration purposes) then your body will maintain 555mg of bolderone throughout the entire cycle until you stop the exogenous injections where levels will fall in exactly the same way as described above. It doesn't matter how long you stay on, the levels will act the same. 2 injections per week will keep levels from fluncuating.

The theme of this is: DO NOT START TAKING CLOMID RIGHT AFTER YOUR LAST INJECTION.
Enthanate, Propinate, Deconate, Iscoparate, etc... all have different lifespans. Clomid should be timed to comensate for the differences.
Never run bolderone for the same length as cypionate or prop.
My advice on an EQ and Enthanate cycle would be to increase the last bolderone injection to about 100-200mg higher than the reset of the injections and stop the injectioins on week earlier than the enthanate. That will make the perfect transisition in regards to the test and the eq leaving the system at the same time. Otherwise, your natural test will remain inhibited. Then hit the clomid/hcg one week after the last enthanate injection.

300mg the first day, then:
100mED, then:
50mgED, then:
50mg EOD

Timing is everything.

-Stew

Peace

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2Thick's Injection Procedures Site Complete with Pictures and Diagrams!

Iron, I think his examples have been based on Boldenone, which cleare the system quicker than, lets say sus or omna. Those esters would require you to wait another week or so.

------------------
"That which does not kill me, will make me stronger"

I do remember quite clearly because I was quite shocked by his reply. He stated that the member in question should start clomid 3 weeks after his last eq injection. I simply asked him if he was sure of this and I would recommend 2 weeks not 3. His reply was somewhat as to the effect of "Iron Game you simply post what you read and follow everyone else".

He then started up another post in which we got into a heated debate and was quite shocked by some of his comments. We sorted it out now though but his advice has been contradictory and conflicting.

He said Iron Game are you ready, Read and Learn.

Then stated 3 weeks after last eq injection and yet now I see him post to many people stating to start it 2 weeks after last injection. So why should he talk down to me like he did if he is now stating to use clomid 2 weeks after last injection?

J/K GOOT POST BRO..

quote:

---

Originally posted by The_Iron_Game:
LawnSaver,

I do remember quite clearly because I was quite shocked by his reply. He stated that the member in question should start clomid 3 weeks after his last eq injection. I simply asked him if he was sure of this and I would recommend 2 weeks not 3. His reply was somewhat as to the effect of "Iron Game you simply post what you read and follow everyone else".

He then started up another post in which we got into a heated debate and was quite shocked by some of his comments. We sorted it out now though but his advice has been contradictory and conflicting.

He said Iron Game are you ready, Read and Learn.

Then stated 3 weeks after last eq injection and yet now I see him post to many people stating to start it 2 weeks after last injection. So why should he talk down to me like he did if he is now stating to use clomid 2 weeks after last injection?

Peace

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quote:

---

Originally posted by apbt549:
hey fonz did you check your mail?

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Stew, very informative

------------------
"That which does not kill me, will make me stronger"

quote:

---

Originally posted by The_Iron_Game:
Fonz would rather not, everything has been sorted out and we made up.

PS I would have to do a search and I am being a lazy ass right now

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But I think U know WHY

BECAUSE YOUR DAMN TITLE WAS FUCKING UP THE WHOLE VIEW OF THE BOARD

sorry, I would have cut and pasted it but I thought that you would just repost it( which you did), I know you have posted it before.

peace

------------------
"That which does not kill me, will make me stronger"

You stated to start clomid after 3 weeks of last injection of eq. I am not talking about this one. But then I read some of your other replies and you stated 2 weeks after last injection which is what I originally said and you tried putting me down.

Anyway it is all sorted now.

M18

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stew Meat:

1. Stop your sustonon at 7 weeks. Stop your EQ at 7 weeks. Hit clomid therapy and HCG two weeks after last injection. BAM, end of cycle.
-Stew

---

This has certainly changed my thinking - there are still a lot of people who recommend Clomid throughout. I am actually still confused but leaning toward "just spend the money and forget the confusion" -- Arimidex during and Clomid after.