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Author Topic:   Low carb diets for shredding
Kakdiesel

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 289
From:Ohio
Registered: Aug 2000

posted March 29, 2001 09:16 PM

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It has come to my attention recently by some emails from fellow bro's on elite that I should say something about cyclical ketogenic diets. I wrote an article on it for a sports supplement company's newsletter a while back and this is for any of you who are interested in this. Of course, I have left out my name on it to hide my identity since I've more than openly talked about steroid use on this board. However, I do not sell, or advocate the use of illegal substances nor does the company I wrote this article for: Enjoy


The Cyclical Ketogenic Diet: True Fat LossIn recent media, low carbohydrate diets have been THE fad for almost everybody in America wanting to lose weight. From your secretaries, elementary school teachers, and desk clerks, to bodybuilders, models, actresses, and athletes.

However, there is a huge difference between those who follow an Atkins plan and those who follow a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD). Atkins is a low carb plan for those who are quite sedentary, walk maybe 3 times a week at the most, and just follow normal everyday activities. So forget Atkins here. The CKD is for those who�s main concern is true fat loss and muscle preservation�muscle for sports and high intensity activities.

My opinion for those who practice Atkins is that while they do lose fat, there is much water loss and most importantly muscle loss. Something we athletes do not want. A CKD is a true fat loss diet that works undeniably, if followed properly and strictly. Yes, low carb diets can be hell at first, but after two to three weeks, there have been anecdotal reports from many dieters that the cravings for carbohydrates decrease. This route to fat burning is unlike any traditional diet all the low-fat diet authors and FDA people have been advocating in history.

I got turned onto this diet a few years back when I got tired of cutting fat and still not being able to lose those last percentage points of bodyfat without losing hard earned muscle. I would start a low-fat diet, and be a either a social misfit (not going out with my friends to party or not going out to eat). Or in the worse case, feel so deprived of delicious junk foods I missed and bail out on the diet all together. One advantage to this diet is that there is no true restrictions on food. One may eat anything labeled a "food"! Well, almost. I�ll explain later.

How the diet works.

The science behind the CKD is simple. Carbohydrates in the diet cause an insulin (a "storage" hormone) output in the pancreas. It is used to store glycogen, amino acids into muscles, while causing excess calories to be stored as fat. So common sense asks me, "How can one try to break down fat, when your body is in a storage-type mode?" Difficult to do, indeed. That is why it makes perfect sense for step one to be cutting carbs.

The next thing that happens in your body is the rise in catecholamines (a "fat mobilizing" hormone), cortisol (a "breakdown" hormone), and growth hormone. Now your body realizes there�s no more carbs to burn for energy, so it must find another energy source: fat.

This usually happens during a metabolic condition called "ketosis." This is when your liver is out of glycogen and starts to produce ketones (by-products of fatty acids). You can check your status of whether or not you are in ketosis with urinalysis strips you can pick up at any local drug store called "Ketostix." Just urinate and see if it turns color. If so, you have ketones in the urine.

When the body is fed fat and protein, it will use dietary fat along with bodyfat for energy with protein going towards repair.

As a side note, there is another reason why this diet makes the most sense to use while keeping muscle. When one follows a high carbohydrate, low-fat, reduced-calorie diet, there�s a point when some bodyfat is burned, but when the body is still in a carbohydrate burning metabolism while trying to lose "weight," it will strip down precious body protein to convert to glucose for energy.

On the other hand, during fat metabolism, protein cannot be converted into free-fatty acids for energy. Although there is no scientific research done on this, there have been reports from followers that there truly is a "protein-sparing" effect. It makes sense doesn�t it? Where else would the body look for fat energy when all dietary fat is burned? Bodyfat.

Diet Requirements Mon. to Fri.

The phrase "working smarter, not harder" applies here more than any diet one has tried. One must fully understand what they must do in order to optimize their goal. To set a CKD up, one cannot just expect to cut all carbs in the diet, train hard, and lose fat! Although some have come up with variations to this plan, the one stated in this article, I have found, has worked for myself (it got me to 6% BF), and other clients I�ve trained to the leanest, hardest they�ve ever been.

First, to set up the diet, write down your lean mass weight. Not your total weight, dough boy. If you weigh 200, but have 20% bodyfat, your lean mass weight would be around 160 pounds. Multiply this by one, getting your grams of protein requirements for a day. Make sure you eat at least one gram of protein/pound of lean mass! This is important in recovery from workouts and enough nitrogen retention to keep muscle. Next, multiply by four, to get your protein calories. Here, it is 640.

The rest of your caloric requirements for the day should be fat. Here is the catch: you must eat fat to burn fat. There�s no way around it. There are many advantages to dietary fat on this diet: Feeling of fullness since fat digestion is slow (less hunger), tastes great, and lowers blood glucose levels (lowering insulin and allow all the fat burning hormones to do their job).

So how much fat? I always recommend starting out with a 500 calorie deficit from your maintenance calories. If you don�t know, it is usually 15 times body weight (full body weight here) depending on an individuals metabolic rate. So here, the example would need 3000 calories a day to maintain weight, and 2500 calories to begin fat loss.

2500 minus 640 (protein calories) is 1860 which works out to be around 206 fat grams a day. Now as you go deeper into the diet, and find the need to restrict calories more, you must cut fat calories, not protein.

The Weekend Carb Load

Since muscle glycogen is the main source of energy for anaerobic exercise such as weight training, we cannot simply deplete all stores while working out and not fill them back up. If that does happen, be rest-assured that the body WILL use protein for fuel then. But this won�t happen on the CKD.

Your one and a half days of "freedom" allow you to do two things: First, reward your carb cravings from the previous days, allowing you to enjoy pleasures like pizza, pasta, breads, etc. Second, eating these things are physiologically rewarding as insulin levels run high, storing amino acids and carbs, as glycogen, into the depleted muscle allowing you to be able to workout again the following week.

Your "carb-up" should begin Friday night and last until around midnight Saturday. Now the next important issue to address is how many carbs. Some lucky individuals find that they eat whatever they want for the 24-30 hour time interval and receive perfect glycogen compensation, while others rely on a better statistical number.

What has been recommended by other authors of the CKD is 10-12 grams of carbs per kilogram of lean mass. Again, time to do math. Our example had 160 pounds of lean mass, so divide that by the conversion factor of 2.2, and we get roughly 73 kg.

100 Grams of easily digested liquid carbs along with around half as many grams of carbs in protein (here 50) as a whey shake or something of that nature should be taken right after the last workout (which I will address in the workout section of the article) when insulin sensitivity will be at its greatest.

A few hours later this individual will start to spread the remaining 630 grams of carbs, along with the important number of 160 grams of protein (remember, keep this constant) during the remainder of the compensation period.

So what about dietary fat? I know you�re reminding yourself, "Didn�t this guy mention pizza?" Yes, I did. And here�s why. During the first 24-30 hours of carbing up, the body will use all dietary carbohydrates to refill glycogen, protein for rebuilding, and get this: fat for energy. Still?

Just like the previous five and a half days. Makes sense. When all the carbohydrates are being used for more important functions (muscle), what else is there to be used? However, you can�t just eat all the fat you want. Keep grams of fat intake below your body weight in kilograms. Again, here our example will keep is fat below 73 during the carb-fest.

By anecdotal reports, this should keep fat regain minimal to nil. Keeping fat intake extremely low has even caused some extra fat burning during the carb up!

But people who have tried this, myself included, have complaints about insulin swings from the quick digestion of carbs: High, low, high, low. Not very fun when you want to enjoy your weekend. Some just fall into a sugar coma and sleep all day. Kind of like after eating all those sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes, and pumpkin pie after Thanksgiving dinner. Its not ONLY the tryptophan in turkey that causes sleep!

As stated before, some dietary fat should be eaten to slow digestion and keep sugar levels stable. Whether it be saturated, unsaturated, or essential fats, is the dieter�s decision. All have nine calories per gram. (Note: there is a claim that essential fatty acids such as flax seed oil increase insulin sensitivity within the muscle cells, in turn, increasing glycogen intake.)

In Case You Missed It

So here�s how it breaks down during the week: Sunday through Friday afternoon , you will follow the low carb diet outlined above. Eat fat and protein all day everyday except on workout days because after workouts, you will need to consume strictly just protein�no fat or carbs.

Some have found to enjoy a protein shake afterwards because they are easily digested. Do whatever works for you. But fat is not logical since you want the protein to fuel the healing process as quickly as possible and fat will only slow it down.

Friday afternoon, around two hours before your last workout of the week, eat two to three pieces of fruit. This will get your body/liver ready to start the carb loading and give you some energy for that final, dreadful workout (trust me, during the first few weeks, you will not want to do that final workout, but you must). Then from Friday night until Saturday at midnight or until bed, eat those carbs!

CKD Workout

Now, the question is, how do we workout to optimize muscle preservation and keep our metabolism up while dieting? Before we get into that, one must realize that during any dieting scheme there is one thing that must be done, and one thing that must not be done.

First, you must keep training volume lower than your usual routine. Overtraining is probably the number one killer in motivation, it deprives sleep, and hinders fat loss.

Second, you must not fall into the myth of lighter weights with higher reps. You got your muscle by benching 240, and you have to bench 240 to keep that same muscle! Or at least around that area! Okay, now that we have that established, here�s what we do:

On Monday and Tuesday we will work our weaker body parts, rest or cardio on Wednesday and Thursday mornings, Thursday do our strongest body parts, and Friday a combination of the Monday/Tuesday workouts in a loop format. The workout I have found to work optimally for myself and my clients is this:

(Note: You may feel free to tweak, shake, and turn this example upside down.

Everybody is different, so find what works for you.)

MONDAY: Chest, Back, Abs

High intensity workouts with 60 sec rest between sets, 90 sec rest between

each exercise

(this excludes all warm up sets)

Bench 3 sets, 6-10 reps

T-bar Row 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Incline bench 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Latpulldown to front 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Dips or Decline bench 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Shrugs 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Flys (any type) 2 sets, 10-12 reps

Reverse flys 2 sets, 10-12 reps

Stiff-leg deadlift 3 sets, 10-12 reps

Rope ab crunch 3 sets, 10-15 reps

Reverse crunch 3 sets, 10-20 reps

TUESDAY: Shoulders, Arms

Same intensity mentioned before

Behind the neck shoulder press 3 sets, 8-10 reps

Military press 3 sets, 8-10 reps

Preacher curls 3 sets, 8-10 reps

French press or "skull-crushers" 3 sets, 8-10 reps

Shoulder raises (any type) 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Hammers 3 sets, 8-10 reps

V-bar tricep press 3 sets, 8-10 reps

Forearm curls 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Reverse forearm curls 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Wednesday: Rest or Cardio

Thursday morning: Rest or Cardio

Later on Thursday: Legs

Same intensity mentioned before

Squat or Leg press 4 sets, 6-10 reps

Lying leg curl 4 sets, 6-10 reps

Standing calf raise 4 sets 6-10 reps

Leg extensions 4 sets, 10-12 reps

Seated leg curl 4 sets, 10-12 reps

Seated calf raise 4 sets, 10-12 reps

Friday night: Final Workout

Same intensity mentioned before

Bench 2 sets, 6-10 reps

T-bar Row 2 sets, 6-10 reps

Incline bench 2 sets, 6-10 reps

Latpulldown to front 2 sets, 6-10 reps

Behind the neck shoulder press 1 set, 8-10 reps

Military press 1 set, 8-10 reps

Either curl exercise 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Either tricep exercise 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Stiffleg deadift 1 set, 8-10 reps

Normal floor ab crunch 2 sets, 10-20 reps

Reverse crunches 2 sets, 10-20 reps

Start the carb up for 24-30 hours!

Aerobics

Before we go on, I want to address the cardio/aerobics issue. Some people find that for the first month on a CKD, cardio/aerobics is not needed. However when fat loss does start to slow down a bit, that is when most start adding 30 min. sessions on their off days. Be careful though, you do not want to hinder your Thursday leg workout. So experiment and try to only add aerobic sessions if you feel you have to.

Supplements

So we have the basic diet outline stated, the workout, now what about supplements? Things that can extremely optimize this diet regime. Well, I have to admit no allegiance to any supplement company on this one: Water. Water is important on any diet, especially low carb since there is a diuretic effect, and more importantly during the carbing period. Glycogen is stored with water! You need as much water as possible to hydrate the depleted muscle. Trust me, you will feel a huge "pump" on Sunday morning from all the stored carbs and water INSIDE your muscle.

Speaking of muscle, the god of all sports supplement right now: Creatine. It can still be used on a low carb diet. Usually 10 grams a day during the low carb days, and around 20-30 grams during the carbing period should work for most everybody. I highly recommend it for everybody who doesn�t get an upset stomach using it.

Finally, one that everyone that�s dieted before knows about: The ECA stack. Most have not used pure ECA, but mainly herbal extracts in thermogenic products sold by sports supplement companies. For a pre-work out boost and increased fat burning through thermogenics (heat), this is my favorite supplement. It does its job, you feel it happening, and it can help you psychologically when you don�t feel like working out that day.

Conclusion

With all this said, I will throw my personal opinion, thanks and motivation on or for the cyclical ketogenic diet. First of all, to me, it is the greatest diet every developed. It makes sense, works and isn�t as hard to follow as one might think. Just stay motivated and concentrate on your goal.

When you have a craving during the week for that cupcake or pasta, just go eat a delicious serving of some pepperoni and melted mozzarella cheese. Or how about a hamburger patty covered in cheddar cheese and some strips of bacon? Foods that are delicious and that can satiate hunger.

I followed this exact plan this past summer for eight weeks and loss 18 pounds of fat without any loss in muscle. It was the leanest and most vascular I had ever seen myself.

And I must give thanks where thanks are due since I did not come up with this diet. Dan Duchaine, who recently passed away, brought my attention to a CKD with his book BodyOpus and Lyle McDonald has done deep research and wrote his book The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner.

This diet can be for you. Oh you�re only a mass builder? Well, lower bodyfat percentages even make you look bigger! Give it some thought and decide. Then achieve your goal. It�s worth it: A diet with true fat loss.


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injury plagued!

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posted March 29, 2001 10:58 PM

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i must admit generally when i see along post like that i dont read it but that was excellent i will certainly give it a try it was well explained and providing all the info is correct was made to sounds nice and simple thanks alot
peace
jason

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"it takes a little more to make a champion"


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Kakdiesel

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 289
From:Ohio
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posted March 30, 2001 12:41 AM

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No problem..if you have any questions dont hesitate to email me..that goes for anybody on the elitefitness board...peace

Kakdiesel

------------------
Kakdiesel

"I'll always be number one to myself"....Moses Malone


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lawnsaver

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posted March 30, 2001 01:22 AM

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I tried that diet for 3 weeks. I felt like shit. I have started to use Alpha lipoic acid at 250mg 3 time a day. This increases my glucose upate by 50%. Thus means if I can use 400 grams of carbs a day without converting and to fat, I can now take 800 grams without fat icrease. If I eat under that amount I will burn fat faster.

------------------
"That which does not kill me, will make me stronger"

"Catch a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime."


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Kakdiesel

Amateur Bodybuilder

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posted March 30, 2001 01:31 AM

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Hey Lawnsaver, thats pretty interesting. How did you come up with that number? Did you measure blood glucose levels after taking some ALA? I'm very interested in hearing how you came up with that...very cool bro...holler back

peace

------------------
Kakdiesel

"I'll always be number one to myself"....Moses Malone


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bsjohnson

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posted March 30, 2001 03:57 AM

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I just want to see if I understand what your saying:

Quote:The next thing that happens in your body is the rise in catecholamines (a "fat mobilizing" hormone), cortisol (a "breakdown" hormone), and growth hormone. Now your body realizes there�s no more carbs to burn for energy, so it must find another energy source: fat."

Right, so cortisol is release, which is catabolic, will increase protein degradation(break down)which will promote a negative nitrogen balance in the body.(doesn't sound good) And your body will need to find an energy source so you can have glucose, and this will come from the glycerol(from a fatty acids, b/c fat can not be converted to glucose only the glycerol backbone can) the other source of engery is from protein which is broken down to a carbon skeletons and used for engery.

Quote"
This usually happens during a metabolic condition called "ketosis." This is when your liver is out of glycogen and starts to produce ketones (by-products of fatty acids). "

Yes ketosis a by-product of fatty acids, also if you are going through ketosis you are also breaking down protein for energy.

Quote"When one follows a high carbohydrate, low-fat, reduced-calorie diet, there�s a point when some bodyfat is burned, but when the body is still in a carbohydrate burning metabolism while trying to lose "weight," it will strip down precious body protein to convert to glucose for energy. ""

Explain to me why if you are eating CHO and your body is burning those CHO then why will you strip down precious body protein to convert to glucose??? I'm really intrested in seeing why(and i'm being for real, im not trying to be a smartass)But from my understanding if there are CHO in the diet your body will not go into a state of ketosis which will use the glycerol and precious protein, and lactate(ect...) for engery.

Well i'm done for now. I have not done this diet, and i'm sure it works. And the way I see it working is b/c your total Kcals are proberly just being lowered. Hell like you said if you take the CHO out and you replace it with fat(which will become full) then you proberly will consume less Kcals.

Oh, i'm almost done,hehe. Also in your example it says that someone would consume 206grams of fat a day. WOW! and most of that will be SFA(proberly 85-90%) Do you think the health benfits of eating that many Kcals from fat is good? Just wondering.

Also your glycogen stores will not last you all week, maybe a day without replacing them. So in your statement saying how "if you deplete all of your glycogen stores in your muscle and don't fill them back up, res-assure that the body will use protein for fuel." And this won't happen in the CKD, why not??? I mean you eat your CHO for 1.5 days and those glycogen stores last all week, I think not. Shit I wish that was the case. I might be wrong, but I have never heard of glycogen stores lasting for a long period of time.

Okay last question the diet says after a workout you should strictly consume protein, no fat or CHO. How will the protein get into the muscle cell without the add of insulin? B/C in paragraph six you state insulin stores amino acids into muscle. Just wondering on that one too.

Okay, I am done, If i have mixed around info or said things in the wrong way, then I am sorry. I am just intersted in nutrition and when I see something new I always question it.
But personally I wouldn't try this extreme of a diet, its just not for me

Peace.


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bsjohnson

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posted March 30, 2001 11:05 AM

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bump...


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bsjohnson

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posted March 30, 2001 01:33 PM

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Bumping for myself again.


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harpoon

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posted March 30, 2001 01:49 PM

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nice post bro. good detail

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got juice?


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avenger

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posted March 30, 2001 02:22 PM

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Yes... I would like to see answers to bsjohnsons questions... great post!


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DrJay

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posted March 30, 2001 02:31 PM

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Good post!

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Kakdiesel

Amateur Bodybuilder

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posted March 30, 2001 03:55 PM

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Hey BSJohnson,

Okay I dont have much time but quick rundown.

THe reason why you eat so much fat is because that is your sole source metabolic energy while in ketosis. Cutting fat anymore will lower calories causing your metabolism to slow down (starvation mode). THat is why you must eat the remainder of your calories as fat.

Now when you are on the high carb diet, and you keep cutting calories, there is a point when you are barely eating any carbs anyways, (the more you lower calories) therefore, your body will process the remaining carbs (glycogen etc.) and muscle protein to covert into glucose for energy. when I say cutting calories on a high carb diet, I mean to the point where the amount of carbs your eating anyways, would be low on a normal diet (say under 200 grams of carbs a day because you are eating 1200 calories at that particular point to continue fat loss) Does that make sense? If not please shoot me an email.


Peace

Kakdiesel

------------------
Kakdiesel

"I'll always be number one to myself"....Moses Malone


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DrJay

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posted March 30, 2001 04:05 PM

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Great post man, I'm gonna be doing my first cutting cycle shortly so this info will help!

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bsjohnson

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posted March 30, 2001 04:26 PM

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Yes I understand your point you are trying to make.

Maybe we are on a different page here.
First off, are you saying that on a CKD diet that your body will go throught the process of ketosis? If yes then my understanding of ketosis is this

Your body needs glucose and since there are no CHO in diet then your body will need to go through a process of gluconeogenesis(which is the synthesis of glucose from various precursor molecules) Several precursor molecules are Pyruvate, lacate, Glycerol(from fatty acids) and Glucogenic amino acids.
Now from what I understand the CKD diet your loading up on CHO for 1.5days. Well your glycogen stores will last roughly 18hrs or one day without being replaced. So mid week you will be using FAT and PROTEIN for energy. The reason I say fat and protein is b/c in the state of ketosis both are happening(can't have one without the other).
So you have a high fat diet, and for energy your fat will go through a process of B-oxidation to be used for energy. Fat gets turned into ACETYL CoA, which aids in Ketogenesis and aids in the TCA cycle(for energy) Here is the problem, You need OxaloAcetate present in the TCA cycle for the process to happen(there are many steps i'm just don't have time to explain, so i'm keeping it plain, hopefully we are following eachother,hehe.)Well oxaloacetate comes from Amino Acids and CHO(CHO is its main source). WEll your CHO will not be present during the week, so Amino Acids will be broken down to use for energy.
So my point is that on both the atkins and the CKD you will have ketosis occur, and if this happens you will have fat and protein that will be used for energy.

Well, I still don't understand some of the other points in the diet. I have asked those questions in my above post.

Maybe we are talking about different things.
I'll shoot you an email if not, but I think posting this info can benfit others.

Late,
bsjohnson



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kingjohn

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posted March 30, 2001 05:24 PM

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KAK-

This looks great in theory and I know you and your clients have had great results with it.....my question....

I know its almost impossible during the Mon-Fri period to avoid any carbs as I've done Bodyopus before.....what is the amount of carbs you let yourself/your clients get through by on MOn-Fri? You mentioned the cheese and pepperoni/cheeseburger meals. Those both have carbs in them. Its been my understanding that carbs need to remain under at least 25-30g a day.

Great post but I would like to read the full article as it seems this post jumps a little around a little bit. GREAT info though bro...experience ALWAYS counts. Thanks!


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bsjohnson

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posted March 30, 2001 07:32 PM

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bump. Its a great post, but I just have my concerns about the issues I have brought up.


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Kakdiesel

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posted March 30, 2001 08:16 PM

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Hey BS JOHNSON, shoot me an email and we'll discuss it because I think I'm misunderstanding your questions...so after we get that finalize, I'll post the answers so we dont have to go back and fourth on the board...cool?

And as for King John, Carbs do slip into the smallest places in food (.60 grams per oz. of cheese usually) therefore yes, there is no way really to go 0 carbs during the day (unless you only eat meat throughougt the day)..but anyways, it seems like anything from 15-25 grams of carbs a day SPREAD OUT!!!! will not cause much of an insulin rise..hope that helps..

------------------
Kakdiesel

"I'll always be number one to myself"....Moses Malone


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Kakdiesel

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posted March 30, 2001 10:42 PM

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bump for Johnson


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bsjohnson

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posted March 31, 2001 03:02 AM

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Just got in from going out. I'll shoot you an email ASAP.
Thanks


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bsjohnson

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Registered: Sep 2000

posted April 01, 2001 01:28 AM

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You have mail...

Okay this is my last bump. I promise guys!!!


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