posted April 24, 2000 11:55 AM            

IT'S THE WAY TO GO.

posted April 24, 2000 04:46 PM            

NO Testosterone for Newbies... 2Thick

I am taking a stand and making my opinion known to the board.
I believe that test is not necessary until all other types of AS are not giving you good gains.
I will quote World Ananbolic Review, because they make this point well.
"...we recommend that steroid novices stay away from all testosterone compounds. To make it very clear: Those who have never taken steroids do not yet need any testosterone and should wait until later when the "weaker" steroids begin to have little effect."
To begin with, I would like to point out that steroids should not be used by anyone unless they are highly experienced in weightlifting, bodybuilding, or another type of competitive sport that requires year-round training.
Secondly, diet is what really makes the difference in a cycle and not necessarily the dosage of AS.
The reason that gear is scheduled is because most people are not educated enough to use it properly. Legalizing its use will not stop people from using dosages of 1000mg per day. Only education will and most people are not willing to wait the year that it takes to learn all there is to know about AS (plus waiting through the first couple years of using mild dosages with mild AS).
Gear is a long-term commitment and should not be rushed. It is a lifestyle and not a one-time thing.
I would urge newbies to wait until they have enough, knowledge, experience and money.
Test (as with Anadrol) should be saved for later.
Jon
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Big j XL
Amateur Bodybuilder

In a perfect world mabey. Not every one has closet full of juice. Alot of times test is the only thing available.
I do agree if you have access to deca or primo try that first.
What can you do to try and convince someone desperate to gain 20 pounds fast, not to take test?.Most people wouldn't give a shit what it would do to them. You have to look at the other side of the fence.
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2Thick
Pro Bodybuilder

I can guarantee that using 1000-2000mg of test per week for 8 weeks does not induce nearly as much havoc on your body as smoking cigarettes for the same amount of time, but I am not here to preach nor to discuss the hypocrisies of the US government.
I am here to give people the facts (and discuss my opinions stemming from those facts).
Everyone has the right to do what he or she wants to his or her body as long as it does not infringe on my rights, but I want them to know as much as they can before they begin.
BTW- I have looked on the other side of the fence...and that is why I wrote this post.
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Pubert
Amateur Bodybuilder

Thanks 2Thick for taking the time to write that. It helped me, a lot!
As someone looking into their first stack, this is definitely something to think about, and definitely information worth knowing!
Pubert
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spoonman
Amateur Bodybuilder

I agree 100%. I had to fight myself real hard to keep from using test enanthate for the first cycle being that "test is king" and first cycles are the best. But these are unchartered territories for virgin bodies so why risk? Although it's hard because bb's, especially, want everything now.
But one question - are you including sus in that group too? Some bb's I talked to don't rank that up with the other "pure" esters (their words, not mine). I don't know where they get their reasoning for this statement. They say 250mg a week is ok for a newbie cycle. Are they talking out their ass?
spoon
[This message has been edited by spoonman (edited April 08, 2000).]
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2Thick
Pro Bodybuilder

Testosterone is testosterone. The only difference is the time that it takes for it to be released. Sus is a milder and more efficient version, but it is still test.
Jon
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spoonman
Amateur Bodybuilder

that's what I thought.
thx thick.
sp
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macrophage69alpha
Moderator

2THICK
you might have guessed that I would have to respond to this post. of course, I will take almost, but not quite, the opposite stance.
first I will start off with your qoute from the world anabolic review- well lets just say that I am less than impressed with this work and that within in it the number of other, aside from their unfounded criticism of test, inaccuracies somewhat diminishes the value of their opinions. There is a lot of good info, but there theories are weak and they make some big blunders with regards to the chemical actions of various androgens as well as the fact that they uniquivocally state that high doses only increase side effects and not gains- wherein, with the exception of orals, the near opposite is true, at least ratio wise.
second I will fall back upon the "natural" theory, which is that test is the natural hormone which has brought the growth that you have experienced throughout your life and is the hormone which is least unpredictable- if you look at your previous experience. When you take other anabolics it is really a lot more of crapshoot or guessing game as to how it will affect you.
third I will have to specifically attack deca only cycles- becuase the side effects, although not permanent can be very traumatic- impotence is not a laughing matter.
fourth is where I will agree with you, I think that anabolic, not test based cycles, are fine- especially if you have specific concerns such as hair loss, hair growth etc.- or if you are younger where your natural test levels are pretty high anyways- or when you are particularly prone to GYNO or Prostate problems- however even then with test you can minimize the problems by taking proscar and clomid or arimidex etc. with other androgens you most likely will not be able to offset the affects especially with DECA AND ANADROL induced GYNO, and with non 5 alpha reduced androgens with respect to the prostate.
all that being said with the proper knowledge and accessory drugs TESTOSTERONE is the safest and most side effect free AS that you can take.
BTW- even though I am not a big fan of primo I will say that, in general it has minimal side effects and is not very suppressive, however until the come out with cheaper 200mg/ml versions of it- it a lot of oil volume and a lot of money for less results than test can provide.
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MP
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spoonman
Amateur Bodybuilder

Shit macro, you just convinced me. I'm chuking this deca cycle. Anyone know where to get test?
WOW, a real live AS Point-Counterpoint. Only on Elite!
Seriously, thanks for the opposite view Mac. It really allows one to make an informed choice. Although I still agree with 2Thick for first cycle, I am splitting the difference - I am doing test on second cycle! (now whether to chose sus or enanthate)
I had the same thoughts as you Mac that with proper planning sides can be minimized. Do you thick clomid would be enough or should one go for Arimidex?
sp
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Dutch
Pro Bodybuilder

In a perfect world, one should only use AS if you have reached your natural limits.. That could take many years if you learn about training and nutrition as well. To much people take steroids after a short while. their training and nutrition suck big time.. If you have done all you can, than even a small dose of say primo can help you big time.. ! I agree with 2Thick.
this is not a perfect world. too much people want a quick fix. "want to get ripped and big fast" stupid assh*les... Test is ok for people who know what they are doing though..
Dutch.
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vexed
Pro Bodybuilder

I also agree with mac, I think that test has to be the most predictable. I am on a test deca cycle but in the beginning I was going to take deca only, quickly my view changed when I read all the posts about "deca dick" etc.. so my first cycle (i just started) was 750sus 400deca for first 2 weeks then 500, 400 for the next 4 weeks then 250, 200 for the last 2 weeks...
Just remember to make sure you know what you are sticking in your body and search the archives for your cycle first then consult the board to make sure you are good to go. Just yesterday I learned that taking a certain acne medication can kill you if your on as.

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Gobler
Pro Bodybuilder

Well it seems that when ever a newbie comes on asking for a cycle or advice on a cycle. The reply is take test or up the test.
Now im on the side of 2thick because I believe that many people dont maximize their training and diet. Then rely on AS to pick up the slack.
obviously Test is considered King for a reason and most juicers swear by it. Probably cause it has proved that it is most effective under most curcumstances.
My oppinion is that when most people go on AS for the first time they expect a magic metamorphosis to happen over night, regardless of trainig intensity and diet. Test is most likey to achieve this thus earning its reputaion. THE KING
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Still Growing
Amateur Bodybuilder

I don't think doing 250 mg/week of sust is too much for a newbie. It's probably more effective and cheaper than a strong deca only cycle too.
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Ice Man
Amateur Bodybuilder

Although pretty new to this world myself from what I have read I have to agree with 2Thick. My opinion is from the perspective is that if Test is the first AS used the size and strength will be great, however coming off the gains will drop a ton and the newbie will be never come off the cycle. I think AS as most things are fine in moderation.
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E2
Moderator

I agree in that steroids should only be used once one has pushed themselves for years and years in the gym, learning everything they can about nurtition, training and THIER body. At that point then taking steroids only makes sense, not everyone was genetically gifted and can get to 260 ripped naturally.
Now that drug to get you there??? Good old testosterone. In my experience nothing will make me grow more than test, it's predictable, it's reliable and it's just downright euphoric to take!
As Mac said, with good old test you know what's going to happen, you know it will aromatize into estrogen and how it will affect your body, and preventing these side effects is relatively simple, we know how to do it and have easy acces to the drugs required.
Everyone i know, with the exception of young1, grow like weeks off test. I have yet to meet someone who does not walk around like they own the world when taking nice amounts of test.
With the other drugs, dealing with progesterone, small gains and definate mood swings is not for me. Sure i take them, and i like some of them, but test is always the spine of all of my cycles.
And yes i do agree that primo is a nice drug, the only problem is that taking 1gm of primo a week while interesting, it would also be damn expensive! I'd really like to see someone on just 1gm of primo a week, has anyone tried it??
I am and will always be devoted to test. It is the king for growth, with real parabolan a short second.
Nice post 2Thick, stirring up some nice conversation!

[This message has been edited by E2 (edited April 08, 2000).]
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Gtn-Big2
Amateur Bodybuilder

2Thick would you recommend a person to do a deca only cycle then for their first?
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UnrealBody
Amateur Bodybuilder

I'm 23 years old and have been lifting for just over 2 years. I have plateaued after using everything I can get at GNC or Vitamin world. Natural stuff has helped me a lot, but I want something stronger. I'm wanting to start a cycle of deca and sust. Should I only use deca? If I do do I still need to get clomid and nolvadex?
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2Thick
Pro Bodybuilder

Gtn-Big2,
Yes, I would recommend a Deca only cycle, but I would not go over 300mg/week for the first cycle. You may see some slow down in libido, but that is reversible. Along with 1-2g of protein per pound and a quality high calorie diet, you should see geat gains. In an extreme case where a person is scared to death of temporary impotence, I would recommend 250mg of sus every 14 days to ward off one of deca's infamous (yet rare) side-effects.
Jon
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2Thick
Pro Bodybuilder

UnrealBody,
I would recommend the deca by itself for the first cycle. There is no need to stack for the first cycle. You should not go over 300mg/week for the first cycle. Yes, I would use Clomid after the cycle and have some Nolvadex on hand (even though Deca brings about progesterone induced gyno, but that will not be a problem at 300mg/week).
You will really feel the difference, but you will also not shock your body. Since your body is not used to gaining more than 10 pounds a month naturally (if that), then a huge jump will feel unnatural and your body will try to regulate itself by allowing it to lose some of your gains. If you gradually build up your AS use then your body will get used to gaining weight and you will keep gaining for years to come (without mega-doses).
Jon
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BIZ
Moderator

ECHO THE MACRO........
BIZ!
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GET OFF ME!!
GET BIG GUY'S!!!!!!!!!
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The Ranger
Pro Bodybuilder

I will have to side with Macro, and E2 on this one....test is best!! However I agree with alot of what 2Thick has said. The bottom line....it's your descion...weigh all the options, know your body, adjust your diet, and training accordingly....make the right choice...then add test to it!!!
Ranger
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Gobler
Pro Bodybuilder

Deca only or better primo only, 2Thick?
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E2
Moderator

AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
I can't stand to hear these things, deca only cycle??? what the hell for? 2 pounds??? How can you tell people to do these cycles in all good conscience??? They're just a waste of money, and yes stacking is great for a first cycle, hit it hard and grow like a mofo!!! Why wait to be big when you can be big today with no more sides or problems???????
HERE'S A GOOD NEWBIE CYCLE FROM "CAPTAIN-INSANE-O"
sust****deca***dbol*****Winny
750*****400****6.day
750*****400****6.day
500*****400****5.day
500*****400****5.day
500*****400****5/day
500*****400*************450
500*****300*************450
250*****200*************450
************************450*****clen
clomid 100mg.day********300*****clen
clomid 100mg.day********300*****clen
clomid 50mg.day*********150******eca
clomid 50mg.day******************eca
as well clomid eod during whole cycle, the deca shot once a week the sust shot every 3 days, and the dbol take EVERY 4 HOURS including nightime. The clen take tabs until you shake like a mofo then back off 1/2 tab. stop the clen when you body tempereature goes back to normal, then start eca. 25 mg ephedrine, 200mg caffine and 350 mg asprin three times a day. Just don't take it to late in teh day or you'll never get to sleep.
17 Sust
2900 mg Deca
189 Dbol
2550 mg Winstrol.
70 50mg Clomid
TAKE THAT AND YOU WILL GROW LIKE NEVER BEFORE I GUARANTEE IT!!!!

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2Thick
Pro Bodybuilder

Gobler,
Unless you have the resources to use 300mg-400mg/week for 8 weeks of Primo then Deca will be much better for mass gains.
Using Deca between 200mg-300mg for 8 weeks can give great gains (if you keep your protein intake high). It is not expensive either.
Money should not be an issue when it comes to your body, anyway.
Jon
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2Thick
Pro Bodybuilder

E2,
I honestly think that you want people to die. Most people on this board do not weigh 200+. Therefore those dosages will do nothing but stress their nervous and endocrine systems.
I wish you weren't so extreme. It's as if you are raising an army of lifters who will keep the black market flourishing because of the need for their mega-dose cycles. Which pharmaceutical companies are you working for...LOL
Jon
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The Ranger
Pro Bodybuilder

Well said Captain Insane-O....I like it alot...yup....you'll grow...and then some!!
Ranger
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E2
Moderator

I don't want people do die far from it, i wan then to enjoy their lives and i think that if you're under 200 lbs then you've not yet reached your natural potential, unless you're short, and then you shouldn't be taking steroids at all.
To me these doses are realatively mild, and any newbie starting out would do very well with one of my newbie cycles. I've had several newbies in my area take my cycles and several of them have gained upwards of 25 lbs of solid muscle per cycle. Now that's good weight!! Can you say that about a deca or primo only cycle???
And you're right i want to raise an army of lifters, the Iron Brotherhood full of men. Real men, built on foundations of test and muscle beyond most peoples dreams. You may think i'm extreme and damn right i am, you're not going to be a freak or a monster by sitting around taking female doses of drugs. It takes hard work and pain and risks to grow, as we all know all to well.
These doses that i recommend are not insane or very extreme, they will give results and great ones, and if taken with the right ancilliary drugs then they're just as safe!
It's the best feeling in the world to see someone that you've trained walk around with a HUGE smile on his face becaue he now has the body he's always wanted.

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The Ranger
Pro Bodybuilder

Well said Bro!
I don't think anyone here would give harmful advice to a Bro! I have always hated the fact that gear is getting harder to come by, and doing three cycles to achieve what one will do seems a waste to me....!
No matter what steroid you do...you have to be in the gym....rep until you feel the pain...then do 2 more.....I love that feeling....I get a fucking hardon when people look at me like I'm insane after a set...when I'm in delcious agony.....That's what it's all about Bro's....and test will get you there quicker....and just as safely!!
Ranger
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efigy
Amateur Bodybuilder

I'll have to agree with macro on this one.
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--
eFiGy
"conan, what is best in life?"
"TO CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES, TO SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, AND TO HEAR THE LAMENTATION OF THE WOMEN!!!"
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E2
Moderator

I wonder 2thick, what do you say when someone who has just done a deca only cycle comes to you and says, "I only got 5 solid lbs off my 300$, what the hell???"
When they could have gotten the same 5 lbs from mega dosing creating and glutamine.
What do you say to them then?

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2Thick
Pro Bodybuilder

As I have stated earlier, it is diet that makes the difference in the cycle and not so much the dosage of AS.
I can say 2 things to anyone who only gained 5 pounds from a good Deca only cycle (especially if it was their first cycle).
1. There was not enough protein or high quality calories in your diet; and
2. There wasn't enough intensity in your workouts.
I also would like to note that your assumptions about our shorter and lighter brothers are not backed by any proof and sound like stereotypical remarks that I would not expect from you. Just because someone is not 200lb does not mean they have not reached their natural potential and just because they are short does not mean that they should not use gear.
Jon
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OMEGALOS
Amateur Bodybuilder

I think you guys both express great points, I guess it boils down to what school of thought you go by... The MacE2 School or....
The 2Thick School.
Personally, I find myself in the middle. I believe in test for a first cycle,perhaps along with Deca- so there i agree with MacE2Ranger.
However, the amt. of test. and other AS in the cycle are for me and I believe for most newbies TOO HIGH. Here I believe in about half the amt. prescribed earlier in the Capt.insano cycle.
My point is there is a middle ground, but everyones risk vs. reward scenario is different and must be assessed before the use of AS. Also everyones reaction to a certain AS or all AS in general is a bit different. Someone might be able to gain 20lbs. of quality mass on a Deca only cycle, im sure its worked for some. Another individual who followed the same training and diet as the guy who gained the 20lbs, could have taken same amt. of Deca and gained 2lbs. Now if both took some test. both would have grown MOST likely more than just with the Deca.
Some people like to experiment with just a small amt. of juice and increase to larger amts. gradually so they can track their bodies response to the new tool in their systems(AS), others will go balls to the wall and make sure they are doing whatever it takes to grow- grow fast and grow big, fuck fucking around and going slowly.
So, I think everyone will have to judge for themselves which route to take.
Good debate, great posts guys.
Gotta love this board!
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Concieve, believe, achieve! Kaz
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Gtn-Big2
Amateur Bodybuilder

bump!
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Dutch
Pro Bodybuilder

Damn i like this discussion. I still believe that most people do not even know how many grams op proteine they really consume per day. let alone how many calories they really eat per day.. Training for a few months and allready looking for steroids. They are the ones making mistakes.. giving AS a bad name..
Bump for 2Thick..
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spoonman
Amateur Bodybuilder

shit, this was a great roundtable discussion. Meet the Press on AS!!!
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E2
Moderator

I meant nothing along the lines that shorter people should not be taking. I meant that if someone is under 200 lbs then they must not have reached their genetic potential and should not be using. If however someone is shorter than that weight can't be used as some form of classification. It has to be lower.
Basically, if someone has been training for years and has taken the time to educate themselves in nurtition and training then they should have a decent amount of mass on them, and then at that time i think it's the right time to take AS.

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bad brains
Pro Bodybuilder

BUMP this, gotta hear this one somemore..................
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UnrealBody
Amateur Bodybuilder

Alright enough is enough. I will volunteer to be 2thick's guinee pig on this one. I'll take whatever cycle he recommends. It must be specific though. During and after the cycle I will let everyone know how it is going. Does this sound fair?
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macrophage69alpha
Moderator

Me too
Just send the gear and I will test the theory for you
just kidding
my "twin" will test it for you
peace
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MP
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THESAINT
Pro Bodybuilder

Gotta go with E2 on this one. What are you
guys trying to say? If you ease into
steroid use you won't get the side effects?
That is simply not true. Sides are dose
and genetically related. If you're gonna
get them on your first cycle you will get them on your tenth cycle.I also have to
disagree with WAR when they say "start
with the weaker steroids first". Why
do you think steroids were invented?
To make something stronger than test.
Test. has a one to one, androgenic to
anabolic ratio. Steroids were invented
to alter the testosterone molecule
structure so that the drug exerts
more of an anabolic effect than an
androgenic effect.
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deltman
Pro Bodybuilder

Man, what an interesting discussion!! This post gets you thinking that's for sure, and all newbies should give this a GOOD READ!!! BUMP!!!!!
deltman
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Combine desire with safety and intelligence and you WILL REACH YOUR GOALS!!!!!!
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weez
Amateur Bodybuilder

Great thread!
I'll be starting the 2Thick cycle soon. 400mg Primo for 8wks (1st cycle). I have all the tools in so far as diet and training knowledge so I'm pretty excited to see how my body responds. As was said, $$$ really isn't an issue when it comes to ones health. Not to say next cycle I won't go the test route, but you never know till you try.
I'll be sure to post progress once I start.
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BIG RICK ROCK
Pro Bodybuilder

HEY HEY F U E2 I'M SHORT, AND I USE GEAR SO WHAT (JUST KIDDING E2 IT'S ALL LOVE BETWEEN US BROS!) yo know what guys I gotta agree with 2-THICK on this one if you read the topic sentence it states "NO TESTOSTERONE FOR NEWBIES" and you know what I think he is totaly right, if you take into account that most newbies::
-are between the ages of 19-24
-DON'T TAKE THE FUCKING TIME TO DO THE RESEARCH
-DON'T use clomid and novdex with their cycles
-DON'T know much about stacking the right types of gear
-DON'T take the time to learn every thing they can about working out
-DON'T maintain a good healthy diet
Now I know that if you qualify into one or all of the above YOU SHOULD NOT BE TAKING GEAR!!!!!
but When you take the above into consideration you would see that we don't want somebody who fills the above profile as part of the Iron Brother Hood.
and this is why test is the last thing we wan't any newbie doing, Now you know that Newbie is not gonna take Clomid so when he comes off his TEST cycle he is gonna crash hard, because all that TEST would have supressed his natural Test production,
Newbie won't have NOVADEX on hand so would most likely be Sprouting double D's, he won't know about the right acne medications so his face is gonna look worst thant Seal's,
And he'll probably experience an Episode of "Roid Rage" and we'll be reading about him in the paper under the headlines "Body Builder Assaults Old Lady In A Roid Rage"
Now I will agree that test is Very Effective and the side effects are predictible, but unless Newbie takes the time to do the fucking research I say, FUCK HIM let him do Primo Only, and Deca Only cycles,or better yet a Winny Only cycle Let him get frustrated and leave the AS world, Before he fucks up and becomes "Poster Boy" for the legions of anti AS people out there, before HBO make an after school special about his life and how he Beatup his gril friend in a Roid Rage.
I will agree with 2-THICK Primobolan Is realy good stuff (maybe the best), and if it's stacked with highly androgenous AS like D-bol or TEST you can yield some realy great permanet gains, but if you don't wanna take the time to do the research then Fuck You, you can go ahead and order an 8 week primo only cycle it will run you about $600. and you can expect to gain a massive 5lbs
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fishdis02
Amateur Bodybuilder

Hey guys I am newbie in my 4 week on cypionate and have made very impressive gains.. 12 lbs and my bench has jumped 20lbs.
I looking alittle bloated but no big deal.
later
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got big?
Amateur Bodybuilder

Back on the subject of short cycles..
for a newbie, instead of just doing say Eq only for 8 weeks, why not a 4 week cycle of about 300/wk with DBOL about 4 dbol a day, and tapering down the last week on both?
Anyone ever tried something similiar? Not very expensive, and something to give the newbies to wet their feet with.. what do you think?
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2Thick
Pro Bodybuilder

I am not a big fan of D-Bol. I would recommend Deca by itself before you try EQ and D-Bol.
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Painkiller
Pro Bodybuilder

I'm with both! All my cycles has been testo stacked with primo(taper) Worked great!!
But I think this guy has some good points: http://www.detn8.org/bb/Docs/cycleadvice.html
read it!

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RAGING BULL
Amateur Bodybuilder

This may sound strange, but I agree with both of you(e2 & 2thick). All else being equal(diet, training etc.), both plans of action should give the desired results you both spoke of. Why can't there be two or three or a thousand ways to get bigger muscles? I can drive from my home to my office six different ways, one may be faster, one may use less gas, one may have less traffic......it all depends on the mood I'm in that day. With everyone having slightly different goals, we NEED to have different choices in reaching those goals.
Mad props to all---great conversation!
RAGING BULL
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dahmer
Amateur Bodybuilder

Holy shit!!! What a debate! I wish I were hitting my first right NOW!!! I am still waiting for Accutane, but I would love to be the test rat!!! I am going to do the E2 special!! This would be my very first and we would see what kind of gains were possible from sust, d-bol and deca. Hell, if my dermotologist refuses the Accutane, I may just start right away!! Fuck it!
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THESAINT
Pro Bodybuilder

Dahmer, Accutane is some harsh shit. Try
showering several times a day with
prescription soaps. Use Retin-A and over
the counter oxy products. Try tanning beds.
Use Accutane as a last resort.
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BIG RICK ROCK
Pro Bodybuilder

yeah dude just take a lot of showers and get some oxie on noxema
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conan69
Pro Bodybuilder

ok my 2 cents
i dont think you NEED test for first cycle but if you really really want to grow you cant beat if for the $$$$
i also saw something about Accutane stay away harch shit very harsh try retin-A first and shower with one of those puffy luffa things... i dont know what they are called but you know what i mean
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dahmer
Amateur Bodybuilder

I am a little past the puffy shower thing. I am now 28 and I still get acne!!! I have to use a daily supply of shit to combat it. I have naturally oily skin. I use Netrugena acne wash, persa gel and oxy pads. I have tried prescription cremes and even used Proactiv formula. They all suck. The over the counters just barely keep my acne at bay. If I skip a day I usually get breakouts. I shower twice a day and still get zits. I am giving up. I know Accutane is harsh shit, but I am not living like this anymore. I am dying to hit my first cycle, but I don't want to be a pus face/back when I do it. I figured if I go on Accutane now, I could detox my liver for a month or so, then hit my first at the end of the summer.