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 Anabolic Discussion Board
 Lipoic Acid: "The Perfect steroid Adjunct"
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| Author | Topic: Lipoic Acid: "The Perfect steroid Adjunct" | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 1012 |
I usually don't tell people to go buy this or that, but yesterdays thread on lipoic acid showed me that Lipoic acid is a very misunderstood supplement. That's right it IS A SUPPLEMENT which has drug-like effects. The only reason why our good friends at the FDA couldn't make it into a drug is because lipoic acid is naturally occurring.(Thank you Senator Hatch). Anyways, to make a long story short Lipoic acid also called thioctic acid, is of the B-class of vitamins and has some pretty fabulous metabolic properties. I will list them: 1. Increases glucose up-take by the muscle-cells by 50%. This permits you to hold 50% more glycogen. I.e. you can eat 50% more carbs. 2. This means that it increases the sensitivity of the muscle cells at the expense of the fat cells. It is one hell of a nutrient partitioning agent. You WILL gain less fat/more muscle on this supplement. This is a scientific fact. 3. Lipoic Acid is both fat and water soluble (a phospholipid), and can enter the cell. 4. It is the premier anti-oxidant on the PLANET. It is stronger than vitamin C and vitamin E, and as a bonus amplifies both VitC's and VitE's effects. 5. PROTECTS NERVES FROM NERVE DAMAGE. ALSO REGENERATES THEM. This is for MeanOne regarding his thread that said nerves coul not grow/be regrown. If you have any back problems or pinched nerves etc..... ALA will do the trick. 6. ALSO OF EXTREMELY IMPORTANT VALUE. IT HELPS REGENERATE LIVER TISSUE WHEN NOTHING ELSE WILL. This includes Milk Thistle, Cranberry extract, and all the other popular liver protectants........This alone should make it worthwile for the bodybuilder. Bet all you Fina users didn't know that. I've done VERY long 17-aa cycles with multiple 17-aa steroids with no side-effects. Needless to say lipoic acid was my secret weapon. These are some of the more pronounced benefits of Lipoic acid, but it is by no means complete. It has also showed to protect from DNA damage, slow the on-set of AIDS, and is regarded to be one of the premier anti-aging drugs on the planet. People have generally seen ALA in supplements like Cell-Tech and other creatine transport products, MRP's etc... and have decided to skip it because it was just too pricey....but no more.... Due to increased demand, it is very cheap now., and very accessible to all. I HIGHLY recommend it. Common dosage is 200mg 3 times a day. Hope this was informative enough....... Godspeed     | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 71 |
Thanks Fonz -- good info that is really appreciated. Gonna have to give it a try. | ||
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Moderator 
Posts: 5858 |
Very nice indeed fonz...It's going into part of my next oral stack.Thanks bro... | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
I HAVE to Bump this up. Almost at the bottom already. Strange. Godspeed | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 912 |
Thanks bro...that's news to me...I'll also be adding it to my next cycle... | ||
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Cool Novice 
Posts: 12 |
Very good info Fonz, I have to give it a shot. | ||
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Freak
Posts: 2955 |
Great info. I'm going to buy some of this shit tommorrow. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
Bumping this thing back up for al you oral users. Godspeed | ||
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Freak
Posts: 2030 |
I'll be sure and get some post-cycle to take w/ glutamine. this may be something else to help retain gains.... who knows. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
quote: Definately, as it is the best nutrient-partitioning substance after steroids that I know of. It also has no impact on the HPTA axis. Very good for recovery Godspeed | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 204 |
I actually sell lipoic acid or alphlipoic acid as its in my store and all I knew was that it increased insulin sensitivity. Didn't know it did all that stuff. ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1091 |
BUMP! thanks for the info fonz....what do you know about it for dieting? it sounds great for either bulking or cutting PA | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 518 |
Just bought 2 bottles yesterday for when I start my bulking cycle on Monday. I will be loading up on creatine and figured it would go nicely in that stack for the glucose uptake. I read about it a long time ago being included in Cell Tech so I'll just add it to my juice and creatine. Juice meaning something fruity and delicious to drink not steroids. None of us do steroids. | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 40 |
Great info Fonz, Bump | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 13 |
Thanks fonz, nice info now I have another supplement to add to my diet with xenedrine, any others that you would advise , bump also so all can see ------------------ | ||
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Freak
Posts: 2498 |
Good post  Could you please clarify what you mean by the following: 1. Increases glucose up-take by the muscle-cells I spotted something in there and was wondering if it was a typo. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 383 |
I only bump the best! | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 114 |
I'm in a bumping mood! | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 518 |
I also would like more info on the 50% increased glycogen storage. If that's the case it should cause your muscles to be much more full and pumped all the time. Have you noticed a physical difference in your physique when using the ALA? Can you provide where any documented info or research is about this. I am not questioning the validity of this statement, I just want to learn more about it and how it accomplishes this. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 232 |
ALA is very potent if used at the proper times and dosages. 200mg with breakfast and 400-600mg post workout with a high carb-high protien shake. I have been using it for years with excellent results. Glucose uptake was incraesed dramatically that = incraesed pumps and less BF%. I am for the first time going to experiment with the real thing - insulin. I want to know how much stronger it is. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 518 |
600mg post workout with a high carb, high protein shake. That sounds like a good idea. When I creatine load next week, how much ALA should I take with each drink 200-300mg? | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 378 |
Fonz tell us where to read more on this, sounds good and my liver profile is off right now maybe this will help. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
quote: Sorry for the wait guys, but I had to answer my mobile. Here goes, In our muscle cells, there are 2 kinds of glucose transporters. Glut-1 and Glut-4. While Glut-1 is totally genetic, and the amount you have at birth is the amount you will have throughout your natural life, Glut-4 on the other hand is not. Things that affect glut-4 transporters are training and drugs such as ALA and Metformin. (Metformin BTW only increases glucose up-take by 10-40% depending on the individual) What ALA does is increase the number of glut-4 transporters drastically that are in the muscle cells therefore letting them increase the amount of glucose they can "suck-up" into the muscle cell. The increase in glut-4 transporters was shown to increase glucose up-take by 50% at my specified dosage. As you know 1gram of glucose=1 gram of carbs. Now, the amount of glycogen muscles can normally hold is roughly 350g. If the muscle-cells increase their glucose up-take by 50%, they will be able to hold 175g more glucose(175 more carbs) to a total of 525g carbs. Thats 700Kcal extra you could eat a day, without getting fat. And amp, IT WOULD DEFINATELY make your muscles fuller. Godspeed | ||
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Olympian 
Posts: 1919 |
Fonz, you inspired me last night to order some. ------------------ "Catch a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime." | ||
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Freak
Posts: 2562 |
so now: best places to get it from cheap???? is that 'kilosport' place good.... ------------------ | ||
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Freak
Posts: 2498 |
Fonz I am still not clear on something, I believe you have made a slight mistake in your figures. Once your muscles have been saturated with glycogen say after 5-7 days then by consuming this extra 700cals every day is not all going to be used to get into the muscle and replenish and increase glycogen stores. It is pretty much similar to the effects of creatine. You start off a loading dose and once the muscle has been saturated you can start with the maintain dose, any more and it is simply wasted. I also find it very unlikely that if I consume 5000 calories of carbs a day that I can consume an extra 2500 calories of carbs without putting on fat. This is not a flame but that is rediculous. The carbs would have to be spread out a day and excess calories over what the muscle needs to grow will be stored as fat although this lipoic acid will very much reduce this. Peace | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 879 |
Great post bro! Very informative! Mass Monster | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
quote: Lipoic acid is not a licence to eat carbs. But, that last part you said is exactly what LIpoic acid is good for. Maximizing Glycogen storage while minimizing fat storage from too many carbs. I think in general people eat WAY TOO many carbs. Try eating 500g Carbs or less with lipoic and you will gain little if no fat. If you eat like 800g carbs/day then everything is different don't you think? Godspeed | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
I'l be a little more concise. Maintenance for me is 3000Kcal. If I follow a 60% carb/40%prot/20%fat diet, then 1800 of those 3000Kcal come from carbs. Thats 450grams. Now, I can normally hold 375g Carbs in my muscles, so I'm eating 75g extra carbs. These 75g Carbs(300Kcal) will go into fat storage. Thats roughly 1 pound of fat every 12 days. Now, lets say I Add lipoic acid. And increase my glucose up-take and carb storage. Then my muscles can hold: 375g+375*0.5=563g Carbs. If I'm now consuming 450g Carbs a day, I'm creating a 113g carb(452 Kcal) differential. If I do cardio I could then lose 1 pound of fat every 8 days instead of gaining one pound every 12 days, solely throught the addition of ALA. Godspeed | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 118 |
I found a place (actually "BlackOp" told me about it) that has excellent prices, it's: www.nathigh.com They sell Natrol's ALA (50 caps at 300 mg each) for $19.95. That's $0.13 per milligram. Thanks for the info Fonz., I'm definitely going to give the stuff a shot. I'd be interested in hearing all of your experiences with it over the coming weeks. Maybe there really is something to this stuff. I'm not an expert by any measure but it certainly does sound like insulin is a big player in bodybuilding. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 877 |
FONZ, YOU HAVE MAIL! | ||
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Freak
Posts: 2498 |
Thats where I noted the irregularity, primarily being an individual thing. Some respond well others do not. Me being more concise = 8000cals/day bulking and found it hard to believe that I could eat another 2500 calories of carbs without adding fat. Even with insulin you can put on fat At the end of the day its all about calorie manipulation Peace [This message has been edited by The_Iron_Game (edited March 14, 2001).] | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 332 |
Great Info FONZ.... thanks ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 518 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fonz: [B] Lipoic acid is not a licence to eat carbs. Where could I obtain a license to eat carbs? I would love to get one of these. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 451 |
HEY FONZ, I THOUGHT YOU LIVED IN THE UK...WHAT'S THIS ABOUT SENATOR HATCH AND THE FDA??? ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
quote: I do live in the UK. But the Hatch Act is pretty renowned around the world. It basically states that all NATURAL-occuring substances are SUPPLEMENTS and not DRUGS. Kind of hard to miss....... Godspeed | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 451 |
FROM https://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/Archives/Forum1/02-2001/050611.html
quote: WHY WOULD YOU THANK SENATOR HATCH FOR ANYTHING IF YOU LIVE IN THE UK? ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 451 |
WHAT ABOUT OUR FRIENDS AT THE FDA? SORRY BRO, YOU SOUND LIKE YOU LIVE IN THE US. NOT TO MENTION THE FACT, AS MACRO POINTED OUT, RU486 IS NOT AVAILABLE OTC IN THE UK AS YOU CLAIM IT IS. MAYBE JOHNNY O SHOULD TRACE YOUR IP FOR US  ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
quote: You should know anything the US government does, the UK government almost always copies..... Godspeed | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 478 |
ok fonz i bought ala and i'm carbing up with great results but i have to disagree with you theory. let's say you can normally hold 350gs of glucose in your muscles.and let's say you start suppplementing with ala so you'll be able to hold 560g of glucose.i see you will create a deficit of 210x4=840kcals. ok now, after a while your muscles have reached saturation holding 560g of glucose. at this point how can you create a caloric deficit since you have allready reached saturation and no more extra carbs are beeing stored? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 64 |
good info..gonna give it a try | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
quote: After you reach saturation, you're obviously not going to be able to lose any weight. You still have to work out while on ALA. So, if you took 350g Carbs WHILE working out and taking ALA(basically what you were doing before with the exception of the ALA) you WILL be able to lose weight..... Godspeed | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 478 |
so you mean that once you 've reached saturation you will create a deficit only on workout days,when after training glycogen stores have been depleted, and you will again be able to store more carbs as glycogen, got it right? | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
quote: Right on Fener. Gives you a hell of a lot more lee-way doesn't it..... Godspeed | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 478 |
yeah, btw i carbed up today with 800mg of ala and when i looked in the mirror i was fucking bloated! just hope it doesn't increase also fat cells volume as someone was saying in another thread. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 921 |
how many mg of the L acid do you need to take to see results and for how long | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1012 |
quote: 1g of carbs forms 1g of glycogen complexed with 4g of water. So, if you take 50% more carbs then glycogen is increased from 350g to 525g(just an example). Water retention is also increased from 1.4KG to 2.1Kg. Thats a 1lb water increase....... Godspeed | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 77 |
i'll definitely have to try some of that!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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Olympian
Posts: 1526 |
THANKS FOR THE INFO! GOOD POST, I THINK THIS WOULD BE A GREAT ADDITION TO ANYONE ON OR OFF A CYCLE. M18 ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 566 |
What about the L-Tryptophen? It's gone and it's an essentia;l aminoi acid ------------------ | ||
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Cool Novice
Posts: 35 |
Fonz, I really don't think it is going to regenerate nerves. sorry bro but Ill need to see the research. right now the only succes they have had with severed nerves is with use of stem cells in rats. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 879 |
Fonz, I must say a very well put together post and awsome reasearch. I start my next cycle monday and after this post you bet i am going to try out this whole method. Thanks for the excellent info and great discussion! Mass Monster | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 686 |
Damn good info Fonz, thanks! ------------------
[This message has been edited by 'ORCHITIS' (edited March 15, 2001).] | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 974 |
I use it all the time... ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1147 |
Fonz, How can you follow a 60% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fat diet? I know it's a typo , I'm just curious as to the actual macronutrient ratios. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 156 |
Thanks for the info Fonz. I very much appreciate it. Good post! ------------------ |
All times are ET (US) | |
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posted March 14, 2001 11:54 AM
