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Anabolic Discussion Board CJAC1- your use of IGF-1
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Author | Topic: CJAC1- your use of IGF-1 |
macrophage69alpha Moderator (Total posts: 960) |
posted March 20, 2000 08:43 PM
you say that the effects of insulin use and Igf 1 use are the same- what were the doses of igf 1 that you were using- becuase It seems to me comparing the effects is erroneous- the real life difference in results that I have seen among Insulin users and Igf-1 user is pretty remarkable- In addition insulin use causes localized fatty deposits at the injection site whereas Igf-1 decrease body fat at the injection site as does GH. In addition- with the use of insulin have you noticed an increase in size with little or no increase in strength- becuase it would seem to me that insulin would increase the amount of intramuscular fat. I am not saying that insulin is not anabolic- however it seems to me that comparing its effects to IGF-1, putting them on an equal footing, is excessive.
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NewSchoolMaster Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 3) |
posted March 20, 2000 10:42 PM
Insulin and IGF having the same effects!!!!??? where is the original post!!!!!!!??? i have never heard anything soooo silly in my entire life!!!! i am now sick IP: Logged |
Mr. Nasty Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 71) |
posted March 20, 2000 10:53 PM
Know who your talking to? Good idea to find out. IP: Logged |
THESAINT Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 165) |
posted March 20, 2000 10:59 PM
MACRO I'M JUST LEARNING ON THIS TOPIC, BUT IT WOULD SEEM THAT IGF WOULD HAVE SOME OF THE EFFECTS OF INSULIN AS IGF STANDS FOR INSULIN LIKE GROWTH FACTOR. ALTHOUGH UNLIKE INSULIN, IGF CAN ENHANCE MUSCLE GROWTH BY ITSELF AT A DOSAGE OF APPROX. 100mcgs A DAY AND IT CAN PROMOTE FAT LOSS. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN OUTLINE OF HOW YOU WOULD CYCLE IGF WITH A STACK OF CYP. AND D-BOL 600mgs/week and 40mgs/week RESPECTIVELY. IP: Logged |
cjac1 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 175) |
posted March 20, 2000 11:31 PM
I've used both insulin and IGF-1. I used 500mcgs a day. Someone mentioned 100mcgs being affective. Won't cut it in terms of giving you the growth you want. No real human studies have been done with the amounts bodybuilders have used. At the amount of IGF-1 that I have used I gained about 30lbs along with other gear. I keep about 20lbs. I then use insulin along with T3 and clen plus other gear being equal to that I used with IGF-1. I gained about 40lbs and keep 25lbs. I held more h2o with the insulin but, all things being equal I gained about the same. The differents in the two being price. Very large difference, I expected to gain more on IGF-1. Not the case, I repeated this test twice just to make sure. Personal experience and being around others who have done the same. You might ask, "Was it real" I'm 100% sure. IP: Logged |
WarLobo Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 265) |
posted March 20, 2000 11:52 PM
From my limited knowlege of IGF, the most benificial action was it's ability to cause hyperplasia - growth of new muscle cells and their development into new muscle fibers. To be more exact, myofibril hyperplasia. While insulin (and steroids in general) would cause only hypertrophy. And that this would, in the long run, result in much more permenant muscle gains. Was this not the big hype going around? Do we think this is the case, or are we spending large sums of hard earned cash for not.... LAte Lobo IP: Logged |
cjac1 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 175) |
posted March 21, 2000 12:09 AM
That one I can answer. Hyperplasia-growth of new muscle cells and development into muscle fiber is still unproven. Many things have been shown to cause new muscle cell growth but, nothing has been proven to actually be able to change that growth into actual muscle fiber. If IGF-1 were capable of that then everyone using it would be huge. But, most are not. Here comes that bad word again genetics. We have a genetic limit as to the number of muscle fibers but, we can increase the size of the fibers we are given. This is where research stands at this point. If we could grow new muscle fibers we could regrow limbs, etc....... This is from the AMA (American Med. Assoc.)journal. IP: Logged |
macrophage69alpha Moderator (Total posts: 960) |
posted March 21, 2000 12:25 AM
Well thats not exactly true there is considerable evidence that hyperplasia of muscle fibers does happen. there is a study with birds where a weight equal to half the subjects body weight was strapped it wing forcing a contraction of dorsal muscles- they were suspended so that the weight was constantly pulling on the affected muscles. after 30 days the birds were disected and there was an over 50% increase in the number of muscle fibers. part of the reason there is no human evidence is becuase there is really no way to study hyperplasia in humans without violating about a million different regulations of the human subjects commitee. BTW- I know what IGF-1 is- my question was regarding his comparison- what I would like to know is where you got the cash to take 500mcg a day? it is really expensive I mean we are talking nearly a thousand dollars a week. BTW2- you kind of glossed over my question regarding whether or not you feel that some of your additional weight was due to an increase of Intramuscular fat- the reason that I ask is that two of the guys that I know who have used a lot of insulin had vary large increases in their intramuscular fat- making them look a lot larger but not too much stronger- I realize that strength is not the goal in bodybuilding- I was just wondering if you noticed a similar increase. ------------------ IP: Logged |
cjac1 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 175) |
posted March 21, 2000 12:45 AM
Just a quick note the birds wing test has about 20 + papers that pretty much tears it apart. I was in med school for 2 and half years and it was one of my papers I wrot on. I can dig it up if you like. Believe me I was hoping it to be true. Hypertrophy can account for 100% of muscle growth in people. Test on people have shown that muscle fibers have the ablity to expand more the 2 X their original size. I'm naturally strong-I was a powerlift first(bench 545/squat 855/deadlift 815) and stay pretty lean so I can't answer the second question with my experience. All I know is that I grow from insulin muscle size wise. With the T3 and Clen I don't worry about the intramuscular fat. I just don't think most people know how to use insulin and end-up with extra fat where they don't want it. I was taught how to use it and how to control it and didn't have to go threw the trial and error stage. I got lucky. cjac IP: Logged |
cjac1 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 175) |
posted March 21, 2000 12:51 AM
Oh ya, the cost. Sky high. Lets say I use to fill most of the " " orders in my state. IRS decided to take a large chunk. I was lucky enough to start some legit buisness before my run in. One of my web sites sell viagra and propeca etc......... I just sold my small co. to comcast. I made sure I never got greedy and I didn't live large. cjac1 IP: Logged |
macrophage69alpha Moderator (Total posts: 960) |
posted March 21, 2000 01:19 AM
I really have to disagree, just because it has been attacked as a theory does not mean that it is not correct- it certainly has not been disproven. BTW- every single Syllabus for college exercise physiololgy- mentions both hyperplasia and hypertrophy as mean of increasing skeletal mass- not that this proves anything one way or the other- however to say that the theory has no merit is certainly premature as it obviously is still a matter in contention- though I of course would say that things are leaning towards the existence of hyperplasia as a method of muscular growth. Here is a compilation, which includes the study and additional research, for those of you that want to read it Muscle Fiber Hypertrophy vs. Hyperplasia: WHAT IS HYPERPLASIA? Hypertrophy refers to an increase in the size of the cell while hyperplasia refers to an increase in the number of cells or fibers. A single muscle cell is usually called a fiber. HOW DO MUSCLE FIBERS ADAPT TO DIFFERENT TYPES OF EXERCISE? If you look at a good marathon runner's physique and compared him/her to a bodybuilder it becomes obvious that training specificity has a profound effect. We know that aerobic training results in an increase in mitochondrial volume/density, oxidative enzymes, and capillary density (27). Also, in some elite endurance athletes the trained muscle fibers may actually be smaller than those of a completely untrained person. Bodybuilders and other strength-power athletes, on the other hand, have much larger muscles (14,40). That's their primary adaptation, their muscles get bigger! All the cellular machinery related to aerobic metabolism (i.e., mitochondria, oxidative enzymes, etc.) is not necessary for maximal gains in muscle force producing power, just more contractile protein. We know that this muscle mass increase is due primarily to fiber hypertrophy; that is the growth of individual fibers, but are their situations where muscles also respond by increasing fiber number?
Scientists have come up with all sorts of methods to study muscle growth in laboratory animals. You might wonder what relevance this has to humans. Keep in mind that some of the procedures which scientists perform on animals simply cannot be done on humans due to ethical and logistical reasons. So the more convincing data supporting hyperplasia emerges from animal studies. Some human studies have also suggested the occurence of muscle fiber hyperplasia. I'll address those studies later.
This animal model was first used by Sola et al. (38) in 1973. In essence, you put a weight on one wing of a bird (usually a chicken or quail) and leave the other wing alone. By putting a weight on one wing (usually equal to 10% of the bird's weight), a weight-induced stretch is imposed on the back muscles. The muscle which is usually examined is the anterior latissimus dorsi or ALD (unlike humans, birds have an anterior and posterior latissimus dorsi). Besides the expected observation that the individual fibers grew under this stress, Sola et al. found that this method of overload resulted in a 16% increase in ALD muscle fiber number. Since the work of Sola, numerous investigators have used this model (1,2,4-8,10,19,26,28,32,43,44). For example, Alway et al. (1) showed that 30 days of chronic stretch (i.e., 30 days with the weight on with NO REST) resulted in a 172% increase in ALD muscle mass and a 52-75% increase in muscle fiber number! Imagine if humans could grow that fast! More recently, I performed a study using the same stretch model. In addition, I used a progressive overload scheme whereby the bird was initally loaded with a weight equal to 10% of the its weight followed by increments of 15%, 20%, 25%, and 35% of its weight (5). Each weight increment was interspersed with a 2 day rest. The total number of stretch days was 28. Using this approach produced the greatest gains in muscle mass EVER recorded in an animal or human model of tension-induced overload, up to a 334% increase in muscle mass with up to a 90% increase in fiber number (5,8)! That is pretty impressive training responsiveness for our feathered descendants of dinosaurs. But you might ask yourself, what does hanging a weight on a bird have to do with humans who lift weights? So who cares if birds can increase muscle mass by over 300% and fiber number by 90%. Well, you've got a good point. Certainly, nobody out there (that I know of), hangs weights on their arms for 30 days straight or even 30 minutes for that matter. Maybe you should try it and see what happens. This could be a different albeit painful way to "train." But actually the physiologically interesting point is that if presented with an appropriate stimulus, a muscle can produce more fibers! What is an appropriate stimulus? I think it is one that involves subjecting muscle fibers to high tension overload (enough to induce injury) followed by a regenerative period.
The stretch induced method is a rather artificial stimulus compared to normal muscle activity. What about "normal" muscular exercise? Several scientists have used either rats or cats performing "strength training" to study the role of muscle fiber hyperplasia in muscular growth (9,13,17,18,20-22,25,33,34,39,41,42). Dr. William Gonyea of UT Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas was the first to demonstrate exercised-induced muscle fiber hyperplasia using weight-lifting cats as the model (20,21,22). Cats were trained to perform a wrist flexion exercise with one forelimb against resistance in order to receive a food reward. The non-trained forelimb thus served as a control for comparison. Resistance was increased as the training period progressed. He found that in addition to hypertrophy, the forearm muscle (flexor carpi radialis) of these cats increased fiber number from 9-20%. After examining the training variables that predicted muscle hypertrophy the best, scientists from Dr. Gonyea's laboratory found that lifting speed had the highest correlation to changes in muscle mass (i.e., cats which lifted the weight in a slow and deliberate manner made greater muscle mass gains than cats that lifted ballistically) (33). Rats have also been used to study muscle growth (25,39,47). In a model developed by Japanese researchers (39), rats performed a squat exercise in response to an electrical stimulation. They found that fiber number in the plantaris muscle (a plantar flexor muscle on the posterior side of the leg) increased by 14%. Moreover, an interesting observation has been made in hypertrophied muscle which suggests the occurrence of muscle fiber hyperplasia (13, 17, 28, 47). Individual small fibers have been seen frequently in enlarged muscle. Initially, some researchers believed this to be a sign of muscle fiber atrophy. However, it doesn't make any sense for muscle fibers to atrophy while the muscle as a whole hypertrophies. Instead, it seems more sensible to attribute this phenomenon to de novo formation of muscle fibers (i.e., these are newly made fibers). I believe this is another piece of evidence, albeit indirect, which supports the occurrence of muscle fiber hyperplasia.
The main problem with human studies to determine if muscle fiber hyperplasia contributes to muscle hypertrophy is the inability to make direct counts of human muscle fibers. Just the mere chore of counting hundreds of thousands of muscle fibers is enough to make one forget hopes of graduating! For instance, one study determined that the tibialis anterior muscle (on the front of the leg) contains approximately 160,000 fibers! Imagine counting 160,000 fibers (37), for just one muscle! The biceps brachii muscle likely contains 3 or 4 times that number! So how do human studies come up with evidence for hyperplasia? Well, it's arrived at in an indirect fashion. For instance, one study showed that elite bodybuilders and powerlifters had arm circumferences 27% greater than normal sedentary controls yet the size (i.e., cross-sectional area) of athlete's muscle fibers (in the triceps brachii muscle) were not different than the control group (47). Nygaard and Neilsen (35) did a cross-sectional study in which they found that swimmers had smaller Type I and IIa fibers in the deltoid muscle when compared to controls despite the fact that the overall size of the deltoid muscle was greater. Larsson and Tesch (29) found that bodybuilders possessed thigh circumference measurements 19% greater than controls yet the average size of their muscle fibers were not different from the controls. Furthermore, Alway et al. (3) compared the biceps brachii muscle in elite male and female bodybuilders. These investigators showed that the cross-sectional area of the biceps muscle was correlated to both fiber area and number. Other studies, on the other hand, have demonstrated that bodybuilders have larger fibers instead of a greater number of fibers when compared to a control population (23,30,36). Some scientists have suggested that the reason many bodybuilders or other athletes have muscle fibers which are the same size (or smaller) versus untrained controls is due to a greater genetic endowment of muscle fibers. That is, they were born with more fibers. If that was true, then the intense training over years and decades performed by elite bodybuilders has produced at best average size fibers. That means, some bodybuilders were born with a bunch of below average size fibers and training enlarged them to average size. I don't know about you, but I'd find that explanation rather tenuous. It would seem more plausible (and scientifically defensible) that the larger muscle mass seen in bodybuilders is due primarily to muscle fiber hypertrophy but also to fiber hyperplasia. So the question that needs to be asked is not whether muscle fiber hyperplasia occurs, but rather under what conditions does it occur. I believe the the scientific evidence shows clearly in animals, and indirectly in humans, that fiber number can increase. Does it occur in every situation where a muscle is enlarging? No. But can it contribute to muscle mass increases? Yes.
There are two primary mechanism in which new fibers can be formed. First, large fibers can split into two or more smaller fibers (i.e., fiber splitting) (6,25,39). Second satellite cells can be activated (11,16,17,43,44). Satellite cells are myogenic stem cells which are involved in skeletal muscle regeneration. When you injure, stretch, or severely exercise a muscle fiber, satellite cells are activated (16,43,44). Satellite cells proliferate (i.e., undergo mitosis or cell division) and give rise to new myoblastic cells (i.e., immature muscle cells). These new myoblastic cells can either fuse with an existing muscle fiber causing that fiber to get bigger (i.e., hypertrophy) or these myoblastic cells can fuse with each other to form a new fiber (i.e., hyperplasia).
There is now convincing evidence which has shown the importance of eccentric contractions in producing muscle hypertrophy (15,24,45,46). It is known that eccentric contractions produces greater injury than concentric or isometric contractions. We also know that if you can induce muscle fiber injury, satellite cells are activated. Both animal and human studies point to the superiority of eccentric contractions in increasing muscle mass (24,45,46). However, in the real world, we don't do pure eccentric, concentric, or isometric contractions. We do a combination of all three. So the main thing to keep in mind when performing an exercise is to allow a controlled descent of the weight being lifted. And on occasion, one could have his/her training partner load more weight than can be lifted concentrically and spot him/her while he/she performs a pure eccentric contraction. This will really put your muscle fibers under a great deal of tension causing microtears and severe delayed-onset muscle soreness. But you need that damage to induce growth. Thus, the repeated process of injuring your fibers (via weight training) followed by a recuperation or regeneration may result in an overcompensation of protein synthesis resulting in a net anabolic effect (12,31).
In my scientific opinion, this issue has already been settled. Muscle fiber hyperplasia can contribute to whole muscle hypertrophy. There is human as well as rat, cat, and bird data which support this proposition (1-3,5-8,13,17,20-22,25,29,35,37,47), a veritable wild kingdom of evidence. Does muscle fiber hyperplasia occur under all circumstances? No. There are several studies which show no change in fiber number despite significant increases in muscle mass (4,18,19,23,26,30,36,41). Is it possible that certain muscles can increase fiber number more so than others? Maybe. Can any Joe Schmoe off the street who lifts weights to get in better shape increase the number of fibers for instance in their biceps? Probably not. What about the elite bodybuilder who at 5'8" tall is ripped at a body weight of 250 lbs.? Are his large muscles purely the result of muscle fiber hypertrophy? I think it would be extremely naive to think that the massive size attained by elite bodybuilders is due solely to fiber hypertrophy! There is nothing mystical about forming new muscle fibers. Despite the contention that fiber number is constant once you're born (18,19), we now have an abundance of evidence which shows that muscle fiber number can increase. Besides, there is nothing magical at birth which says that now that you're out of the womb, you can no longer make more muscle fibers! A mechanism exists for muscle fiber hyperplasia and there is plenty of reason to believe that it occurs. Of course, the issue is not whether fiber number increases after every training program, stress, or perturbation is imposed upon an animal (or human). The issue is again, under which circumstances is it most likely to occur. For humans, it is my speculation that the average person who lifts weights and increases their muscle mass moderately probably does not induce fiber hyperplasia in their exercised muscle(s). However, the elite bodybuilder who attains the massive muscular development now seen may be the more likely candidate for exercise-induce muscle fiber hyperplasia. If you are interested in a comprehensive scientific treatise on this subject, read a scientific review article that I wrote a few years ago (7).
anabolic - in reference to muscle, a net increase in muscle protein
1. Alway, S. E., P. K. Winchester, M. E. Davis, and W. J. Gonyea. Regionalized adaptations and muscle fiber proliferation in stretch-induced enlargement. J. Appl. Physiol. 66(2): 771-781, 1989. ------------------ IP: Logged |
WCP Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 403) |
posted March 21, 2000 01:28 AM
Whew..!!! Man...I think Ive learned too much and you guys know too much...this is very entertaining....but your giving me a killer headache...Ha... Very good stuff guys...very interesting.. WCP ------------------ IP: Logged |
cjac1 Pro Bodybuilder (Total posts: 175) |
posted March 21, 2000 01:52 AM
LOL!!!!!!!!! I think we got off the point. Wasn't it which works better. Insulin or IGF-1 not theroy which can be debated all day long.. Just pratical everyday application by an average Joe. I've used both and all things considered I favor insulin. Beside most people couldn't afford or want to spend the $ for the amount I've seen needed to make a large gain. Just my choice. My head is now hurting to. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IP: Logged |
NewSchoolMaster Amateur Bodybuilder (Total posts: 3) |
posted March 21, 2000 03:47 AM
500 mcg a day!!!! ha ha ha, ya i was using 5 grams a week of test and 30 iu of growth a day, until aliens arrived last night, took all my gear and force fed me soy protein until i puked!!!! IP: Logged |
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