posted February 18, 2000 05:27 AM         

Hormone Precursors Q + A Session

With all the new testosterone precursors becoming the rage among the supplement
industry, there is a great amount of products that are being released. Along with this
large amount of products, there comes a greater degree of confusion for the customer.
Most of us are trying to get the most from our money while building our dream
physique. I imagine that most of you have a limited supplement budget to spend each
month. These new testosterone precursor supplements are not cheap. The prices
range from about $30 all the way up to $80 depending on what you buy. With product
names like 4-dione, 5-diol, and 19-Nor-4-diol, it is very easy to get confused. These
products might have similar names, but they don't give similar results. I am going to
attempt, with this article to shed some light on what is currently out there, what these
products do, when to take them, the suggested dosage (in my opinion as well as what
the manufacturer claims), which companies to look for, and what kind of gains you can
expect. Hopefully, you will leave with a better understanding as to what these
products are all about as well as knowing that some of these products are a waste of
money and some might just be the supplements of the future.
DHEA Products
DHEA
Suggested Dosage
50-100 mg per day
This was the first of the hormone precursors to be sold. It was initially banned and
classified as a steroid but was later reclassified and is currently available. DHEA is a
hormone that is naturally produced by the adrenal glands. It is two steps away from
testosterone in the conversion process. It will first convert to androstendione and then
from there is converted to testosterone. DHEA is really not a good product in lieu of all
the others that are currently available. It is been proven to be almost worthless for
those under 50 as well anyway, which is the majority of the readers on this page. It is
also counterproductive to take with the other hormone precursors since the enzyme
that is used for the conversion process to make DHEA into testosterone is the same
one used to convert other hormone precursors as well.
There is no sense wasting this limited enzyme on a two step process when better
products
are available.
Androstendione Products
4-Androstene 3,17-dione
Suggested Dosage
Andostendione is a metabolite of DHEA that serves as a direct precursor (one step
removed) in the bio-synthesis of testosterone. A 100 mg dose of androstendione will
cause a 24% increase in normal blood testosterone levels within 90 minutes of its
consumption. Other effects are often seen as well such as increased energy, enhanced
recovery and growth from exercise, heightened sexual arousal and function, as well as
a greater sense of well being.
Androstendione combines with the17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehyrogenase (17�-HSD)
enzyme and part of the androstendione will then convert to testosterone. Since there
is only one step involved in this conversion process, Androstendione is a much better
choice than DHEA for this purpose. Make sure that you are purchasing the delta-4
version (the one with the 4 in front of the androstenedione name). The delta-5
versions ave not been proven to be effective in converting to testosterone.

19-Nor-4-Androstenedione
Suggested Dosage
Manufacturer: 50-100mg, 3-5 times per day.
This product is just like androstendione except for one big difference. Instead of
converting to testosterone in the body, it will convert to nor-testosterone instead.
This is desirable for those that would like the increase in blood testosterone levels
without the added side effects that are present with androstendione. An analogy can
be drawn to steroids. Testosterone cypionate for example has much greater side
effects than deca-durabolin does. Deca is nandrolone.

Androstendiol Products
5-Androstene-3,17diol
Suggested Dosage
Manufacturer: 50-100mg, 3-5 times per day.
5-Androstenediol is a compound that is somewhat similar to DHEA. This product is good
for helping to boost the immune system but is lousy as far as helping you get your
blood testosterone levels increased. It's ability to convert to testosterone is weak,
much like DHEA. This is another one of the BAD delta-5 hormone precursors as far as
bodybuilders are concerned. They have not been proven to be effective in the
conversion to testosterone.

4-Androstene-3,17diol
Suggested Dosage
4-Androstenediol is a hormone precursor that is one step away from testosterone.
4-Androstenediol uses a different enzyme for the conversion to testosterone than
androstenedione does. This makes it a nice choice to stack with androstenedione since
they are not competing for a limited supply of that enzyme. This product convert to
testosterone 300% more efficiently than 4-Androstenedione does. This is good for
users wanting an increase in testosterone. This product has the greatest chance to
convert to the highest amount of free blood testosterone that is currently available. If
you could only afford to buy one product, then this would be the one to try. The only
negative about this product is that is has greater side effects than 4-androstenedione
since it has a higher conversion rate.

19-Nor-4-Androstenediol
Suggested Dosage
One capsule (100mg) three times a day with meals.
These products are the good (delta-4) variety of norandrostendiol. These products will
convert to nortestosterone about 300% better than the regular norandrostendione
products
do. This product is very similar to the Androdiol products that are out there except it
converts to nortestosterone instead of testosterone in the body. This is the best
hormone precursor that converts to nandrolone in the body that you can currently buy.
This would be a good product for you to try if you are interested in the higher
conversion rates to nandrolone without the harsher side effects that are present on
products that convert to testosterone.

Which of these testosterone precursors make sense to stack together for optimal
results?
These products have specific enzymes in the body that convert the products to
testosterone. The androstendione products as well as DHEA use 17
beta-hydroxysteroid
dehyrogenase (17�-HSD) to convert to make their respective conversions.
Andostendione
converts directly to testosterone whereas DHEA converts to androstendione first, then
uses more of the enzyme to convert to testosterone. Therefore, it makes little sense
to take DHEA with any of the androstendione products since you would just be wasting
part your limited supply of the 17�-HSD enzyme in the conversion of the DHEA to
androstendione. I would just cut out the DHEA all together. The diol products,
however, use an entirely different enzyme
to make their conversion to testosterone and nandrolone.

Therefore, taking everything into
consideration, I would recommend the following:
Most anabolic stack currently available - 19-Nor-4-Androstenediol + 4-Androstenediol.
This stack takes advantage of the diol products, which convert roughly 300% better
than the other products plus you get the conversion to both testosterone and
nandrolone as well. Obviously, this is not a cheap stack. If cost is not an issue though,
you will get the most you can get (going the legal route, of course) for your money.
Make sure that you are taking the delta 4 products though and not the ineffective
delta 5 products. The Substate Solutions "Diol Stack" fits the bill nicely and has the
good products that you are looking for.

Do I want to take the testosterone precursors with meals? If so, why?
It is very important to take the testosterone precursors that use the 17�-HSD enzyme
with
meals. The precursors that utililize this enzyme for the conversion process are the
androstendione products as well as DHEA. The reason for this is that the 17�-HSD
enzyme
requires a high adenosine triphosphate (ATP) level in the body for this conversion
process. Taking these supplements with meals that are balanced in carbohydrates as
well as protein is beneficial since the conversion of these supplements to testosterone
is dependent upon ATP levels in the body. It takes a large amount of energy to make
the conversion to testosterone or nandrolone in the body. With low ATP levels, which
would be present if you just took the supplement between meals, this conversion
process will not happen as well. In effect, you are wasting part of what you could gain
by taking the supplement without a meal. I would recommend taking all the
testosterone precursors with meals though just to be on the safe side even though a
high ATP level is not required with the other products.

What can I expect out of these products?
I can tell you from personal experience as well as from what I have seen and heard
from
"reliable and honest individuals" that I
personally know. If you are looking for a "steroi replacement" you are just not going to
find it here. I really think that there is no such thing as a steroid replacement. Those
that have taken them know this as well. Really, the only thing that is similar to steroid
effects from these products are the "steroid like" side effects that they will give you if
you take high enough doses. I would say that the threshold for most individuals where
the side effects start to out weight the gains is when you start going over 400 mg a
day for the products. After you cross this dosage line, in the people that I know , you
start to get the acne problems and hairloss problems that you see with take steroids
like testosterone cypionate, etc.

The gains that you will get from these products are not like what people are saying
either. The single best product for putting weight on you that is a supplement is
creatine, bar none. With the testosterone precursors, you can expect to put on
between 3-7 lbs at the most. Anyone that claims 20 lbs of weight gain off
norandrostendione, etc. is full of shit. You will definitely feel better while on the stuff
and have more intense workouts, but you are not going to put on anything near what
you would with steroids. If you even could put on 10 lbs
on this stuff, the FDA would have a ban on this stuff so fast your head would spin. I
think that personally, many factors could account for some of these crazy weight gain
claims.
Probably, most of the people that are claiming this kind of gains are those that have
not been regularly been working out. If you quit for a long time or perhaps are just
starting out, you will make nice gains for about 2 months, even if you took nothing at
all. It would be very easy to think that these gains are attributable to the
supplements. It is very possible to put
on 20 lbs. in the first 6 months that you start working out if you never have for some
people. This is just something to keep in mind when you hear of these wonderous
gains.
I as well as everyone out there would like to see a study performed on individuals with
at least 2 years of continuous training under their belts and their diets in order as well.
I would suspect that there would be no 10-20 lbs gains though. I have no vested
interest in the sale of these products at all, so I can say what I want to about them.

Bottom line, they are nice for the pumps and intensity, but they will not do what
steroids will do, period. If you are looking to stay natural though and want a little bit of
an edge, I would say to try them. If you are taking steroids, DON'T WASTE YOUR
MONEY ON THESE THINGS. It will not help your cycle out at all and more than likely,
will just aggrevate the side effects even further.

Patrick Arnold, generally regarded as being the one to introduce all of these products
says the following, as quoted from the Misc.fitness.weights newsgroup, "My
recommendation from what I know at this point would be the following: Take only the
diol products, and take them with meals throughout the day. Experiment with doses to
find out what is effective for yourself. At this point I am skeptical if there is any
synergism between the diones and the diols, and knowing how much more potent the
diols are I simply say spend your money on them."

How much of these things should I take?
The current general rule of thumb for most people is to start out with 100 mg of
whatever you are wanting to take. Increasing the dosage and the frequency of the
dosages has a duel effect. You will get more results with the higher and more frequent
doses, but conversely, you will also get more of the undesireable side effects from
them. You just have to find the happy medium by increasing dosage until you come to
a point where the side effects are more undesireable than what you are getting out of
these supplements. Another thing to keep in mind is that the more frequently you take
these products, the more you are going to depress
HPTA funtioning as well. This is very undesireable. It is the same problem that faces
steroid users as well. If you supress the HPTA too much, you will in effect crash after
cycling off of these supplements just like steroids. This is caused by these products
cutting down on the body producing testosterone since it perceives a higher than
normal level. Your body notices this problem and tells itself to cut down on natural
testosterone production. I personally think
that this threshold is about 400 mg a day. If you cross this barrier for too long, that is
where the problems arise.
You want to take these products for a minimum of 4 weeks to see results and take
them no
longer than 8 weeks at the recommended doses to keep from supressing HPTA
functioning.

What kind of side effects can I expect from these testosterone/nandrolone precursors?
You can expect the same side effects as with taking testosterone shots albeit at a
much
lower level unless you are taking big doses of these supplements. You can get any of
the
following side effects:
acne
possible hair loss
oily skin
gyno at higher and more frequent doses

How and when should I take these supplements for the maximum in effects?
These supplements peak in the blood stream about 90 minutes after taking them. You
can
expect about a 24% increase in normal blood testosterone levels from a 100 mg dose
of
androstendione. The diol products convert about 300% better than androstendione
dose so
you would be getting a much better raise in blood testosterone levels from those
products. Taking all of this into consideration, I would recommend the following dosage
schedule:

Split up whatever you are deciding to take into the following three times a day dosing
pattern
- AM with breakfast -
- NOON with lunch -
- 1 hour prior to your workout with a preorkout meal/shake

Don't take these products past 6 pm at night as well.

posted February 18, 2000 12:30 PM            

yep, I was reading the above posts, about to put down my two cents about my results with DHEA (good sleeping aid, and a bit of a lift)

But shit man, 2 d-bols will have more effect than a month of frickin pro hormones.

(androstendione did nothing for me. no, that's not true, it set me back about twenty bucks)

------------------
big catratcho
-----------

"Hey this Cheque Mix tastes like shit"

posted February 18, 2000 01:02 PM            

That's way more than I've gained on 4 weeks of ref-b and laurabolin. My current cycle ain't over yet so I'll probably do about as well as I did on the pro-hormones.

If you take enough of them (I was up to 1-1.5grams/day) you'll definitely grow.